1994-05-18
QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
FIRST REGULAR MEETING
MAY 18TH, 1994
INDEX
Use Variance No. 20-1994
Sonny Spahn
1.
Sign Variance No. 3-1994
Sonny Spahn
7 .
Use Variance No. 106-1993
John C. & Christine Bergeron
24.
Use Variance No. 49-1993
EXTENSION
Howard Carr - Taco Bell Corp.
26.
Discussion on rehearing Queensbury Retail Limited Partnership 26.
THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD
AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS
MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES.
QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
FIRST REGULAR MEETING
MAY 18TH, 1994
7:30 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN
LINDA HAUSER, SECRETARY
FRED CARVIN
ANTHONY MARESCO
ROBERT KARPELES
CHRIS THOMAS
MEMBERS ABSENT
DAVID MENTER
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN
PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY
STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI
NEW BUSINESS:
USE VARIANCE NO. 20-1994 RR-3A SONNY SPAHN OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE
51 AVIATION ROAD APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO PLACE A FREESTANDING
SIGN AT THE SITE OF HIS BUSINESS, "EXIT 19", ON AVIATION ROAD. A
USE VARIANCE WAS GRANTED TO OPERATE THE COMMERCIAL BUSINESS IN A
RURAL RESIDENTIAL ZONE. A USE VARIANCE IS ALSO REQUIRED IN ORDER
TO INSTALL A SIGN, AS SECTION 140-B(3)(a) ALLOWS SIGNS ONLY IN C &
M ZONES. SECTION 179-15D DOES NOT ALLOW SIGNS AS A PERMITTED USE.
A PREVIOUS VARIANCE WAS GRANTED TO ALLOW THE ONE (1) EXISTING SIGN
ON THIS PROPERTY. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 4/13/94 TAX MAP NO.
73-1-17 LOT SIZE: 117 X 134 FT. SECTION 179-15D, 140-6B(3)(a)
MICHAEL MULLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 20-1994, Sonny Spahn, Meeting
Date: May 18th, 1994 "ADDRESS OF PROPERTY: Aviation Rd. at
Northway Exi t 19. SUMMARY OF PROJECT: Appl icant proposes to
install a freestanding sign in the front yard of his business.
CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 179-15D does not
list signs as a permitted use in a Rural Residential Zone. Section
140-6B of the sign ordinance allows signs only in C and M zones.
A previous variance was granted to allow one wall sign on the
property. REVIEW CRITERIA, BASED ON SECTION 267-b OF TOWN LAW: 1.
IS A REASONABLE RETURN POSSIBLE IF THE LAND IS USED AS ZONED? The
applicant states that this is believed to be a reasonable request,
in view of the fact that a commercial use has been allowed on the
property by variance. No financial evidence substantiating the
need for additional signage has been provided. 2. IS THE ALLEGED
HARDSHIP RELATING TO THIS PROPERTY UNIQUE, OR DOES IT APPLY TO A
SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? This parcel
is unique in the area, where the majority of surrounding land use
is commercial. 3. IS THERE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON THE ESSENTIAL
CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD? While other properties in the area
have signs, the lot size and configuration of this business,
coupled with its location at an extremely busy intersection, make
it a different situation. The safety factor involved with placing
a four (4) foot by six (6) foot multi-colored sign four (4) feet
from the pro per t y 1 i n e n ear a Nor t h way 0 n / 0 f f ramp, and the
Queensbury school complex should be evaluated, since it could be
considered a visual blockage and a distraction. 4. IS THIS THE
MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ADDRESS THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHI P
PROVEN BY THE APPLICANT AND AT THE SAME TIME PROTECT THE CHARACTER
OF THE NE I GHBORHooD AND THE HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THE
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COMMUNITY? Staff believes the variance granted previously for a
wall sign would be considered the minimum variance possible to
achieve both purposes. Since there is a traffic light directly in
front of this business, and the wall sign is thirty-five (35) feet
from the property line, there is ample opportunity to view the wall
sign. In addition, a delivery van with a full panel "Exit 19"
advertisement on it is parked in the driveway much of the time.
STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: The need for this sign to accomplish
reasonable return for the applicant has not been addressed in this
application. Information from other sources, such as the Post
Star, indicate that the owner is satisfied with the success of his
store at this location. When the Use Variance was granted for
commercial use, the Photo Developing aspect was not proposed by the
applicant, only shipping, office supplies, and copying services.
The Board may wish to consider whether this additional use falls
within their intent for this location."
MISS HAUSER-On April 13th, 1994, the Warren County Planning Board
recommended to disapprove the Use Variance. "The Board did not
have a description of what the sign will say or what it is going to
look like. Also there is no justification as to why this sign is
needed."
MR. TURNER-Mr. Muller.
MR. MULLER-For the record, my name is Michael Muller. I represent
Mr. Spahn, and Mr. Spahn is to my left. This application pertains
only to whether or not we can obtain a freestanding sign. We're
not going to talk about the setbacks and all that. Basically, Mr.
Spahn, as you know, has received a variance to operate what would
ordinarily constitute a Highway Commercial retail business in a
Rural Residential zone, and I think that you all know, because
you're familiar with this property, that that property is neither
rural, nor residential, nor is there any rural or residential
property abutting it, behind it, on either side of it, or across
the street from it. It's actually improperly zoned. Obviously,
the only relief that would be available for this applicant would
either be to get it rezoned, or to seek a variance. He did receive
a variance to operate the retail business that's presently there.
The S taf f notes seem to i ndi ca te that that ought to be enough
relief. I should think that a sound variance, once granted, allows
the property to be used consistent with the variðnce that has been
granted. That variance was Highway Commercial. There isn't a
piece of Highway Commercial property anywhere within the Town of
Queensbury that's prohibited from having a freestanding sign. The
fact that we can't, or that we didn't prove to you that the piece
of property lacks a reasonable return, it's an impossibility. That
is that I can't show you actual sales now and then hypothetically
project out how sales would be better if we had a freestanding
s i g n . T hat's why I' m un c om for tab I e wit h be i n gas ked tot r y
demonstrate that formula. I think that the formula that has to be
applied in this instance here is what's a reasonable use of the
property, and allowing us reasonable return, if you say, and you
did, that it was Highway Commercial, and I think that was right,
then there must be some reasonable freestanding sign opportunity
you would allow the business so that it doesn't operate under the
disability that it's a Highway Commercial business under a
variance, but it's not really a Highway Commercial business.
Basically, what Mr. Spahn has in mind is a freestanding sign, yet,
get a little bit into the other application, it's not a big sign,
but it's not a big sign, in the sense that the Ordinance would
allow a larger sign. He's trying to be attentive to the space
constraints that are there. It is a very small front lawn, and yet
the front lawn is larger than what it appears to be, and smaller
than what it appears to be, which is why I took a great deal of
time in trying to write the Board a letter, basically went out
there and physically measured it, and tried to put the sign, to
ma k e i tea s i e r for you, sot hat i two u I d n 't be an 0 f fen s i ve
location, and I'm hard-pressed to figure out where else it could go
but where we propose it to go, which is to be in the middle of the
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property, on the front of the property. When I say to you that
it's, well, and the Staff notes are correct in saying that it's a
mere few feet off the property, about four feet, that's true,
because the State highway right-of-way goes substantially up on
what would otherwise appear to you and I as a lawn. It basically
takes over about another seven feet north of the sidewalk. So,
yes, we would be hugging our boundary line, but in reality, we
stand a full 11 feet off the sidewalk and a full 15 feet off the
road. Do you want to add anything to this, in terms of your need
for the sign?
SONNY SPAHN
MR. SPAHN-First of all, I apologize for being five minutes late.
An old cliche, my clock really stopped, my watch. I am operating
a business, and I do need relief, because people going east and
west, because the property is set back, do not, and are not aware
that I am there. I am doing as much advertising on radio and
newspapers that I possibly can to alert people that I am there, and
I'm not getting the business that I should. I realize I'm only a
business that's less than three months old. I really find it a
hardship for me, not having this sign that's set back much further
from the road than it possibly appears, and I think Mr. Muller has
stated it correctly, that it's 15 feet back from the road. I need
that sign so the people are going east and west can be aware of the
services I'm giving. I know this has nothing to do with it, but
I'm doing my utmost to make people very proud of the location. I'm
in the process of painting. I just did some asphalt tile in the
front. I did some plantings. I did other things, because I live
in Queensbury, and I'm proud of living in Queensbury, and I stated
once on the radio, I know what you people do, and you're giving me
a hard time and everybody else, but I'm proud that you're doing
this because I live in Queensbury, and this area will not be honky
tonk, for what you're doing, and I do appreciate that, and I'm
trying to do the same thing. I'm trying to clean up that building
with shrubs, decorating, and make it look presentable. I've even
asked Mike Muller, if they so wish, I would put a sign above the
building that says "Welcome to Queensbury", because I really feel
that if I'm doing and going the extra step to satisfy the Board in
making this building presentable, and unlike it was for so many
years, and I do need the sign, so that the people going east and
west would realize, and it is a small sign, and it's a vinyl sign,
and I'm requesting with it, whether it's a vinyl sign or a lit
sign, I'm not sure which way I'm going. Presently it's a vinyl
sign, because lit signs are very expensive, and at this point, I'm
spending my children's inheritance. So I have to decide whether I
go for the extra money for the lit sign or the vinyl sign, but I'd
appreciate it if the Board would consider my position. I did have
the pro per t y up for s a I e for ma n y yea r s . I t r i e d to sub d i v ide it.
I tried to subdivide it into three equal professional offices. I
tried to subdivide it into two. I was turned down each time.
There is a four way traffic light there. I'm doing my best to have
the sign. I've followed every rule that the Town expects of me,
and requested. I don't hesitate. I'm a man of my word, and I
would appreciate it if the Board would see favorable on allowing me
this Variance. Thank you.
MR. MULLER-Mr. Turner, could I just add a couple of things, my
comments on the notes?
MR. TURNER-Sure.
MR. MULLER-On the Comments, One through Four, under Staff comments.
I think I've addressed the issue about financial evidence,
substantiating the need for additional signs. That is that we're
hard-pressed to find, offer you anything other than all of what Mr.
Spahn does to advertise people to come to his location is a
substantial amount of off premises advertising through the media,
which, obviously, he could afford to do less, and would like to do
less, if you would give him the sign, that you could see on an
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east/west traffic flow which, that's not possible now. If you jump
to Four, if you look at Four, it's true. There is a sign there on
the delivery van. It's a lousy way of doing a sign. We all know
that. That is that the preferred method is to have a nice little
sign with the landscaping around it, and so for the time being, he
has been parking that Exit 19 advertising on a panel van out front,
but that's not our preference. That actually goes back to Item
Three, too, in these notes, in that, basically, there is a safety
factor here. We have tried to anticipate exactly what that concern
would be all about in situating this, and it is setback from the
sidewalk. It is sufficiently away from the house, so that it's not
blocking a great deal, and it's 24 square feet. It's four by six,
right?
MR. SPAHN-Correct.
MR. MULLER-And standing three feet off the top of the present
grade. So, if the Board has trouble with this blocking some view,
it really isn't, that is that we walked all the way around that
thing to try to figure out where the best possible place is that
you could see the sign and also not block anything, because we were
working around a huge post, it's a massive metal post that's on his
front lawn. We certainly don't disagree with Number Two. That's
the essence of our plea here this evening, which is that it's not
the majority of the land that's commercial. It's all commercial,
except for the school. The school, indeed, is not commercial. Had
there not been a school there, it would have been commercial.
Ever~thing up and down there has a freestanding sign.
MR. TURNER-Okay. The last time you were here I think we directed
you to put up a directional sign, indicating right turn only. That
hasn't been done.
MR. MULLER-Yes, it has.
MR. TURNER-It wasn't there the other night.
MR. SPAHN-It's been out there since Day One.
MR. MULLER-Yes, it's there.
MR. TURNER-Where?
MR. SPAHN-It's attached, Mr. Turner, to reiterate, every request
that the Board asked me to do I've done. There is a sign that
says, in the back, when they leave my premises, right turn only.
MR. MULLER-I don't think I'm dreaming this up. I went in there,
and I was pulling out. There was an arrow to the left that has one
of those cross hatched marks across it, no left turn, because I
thought it was a pain in the butt. I was looking both ways to see
if I could cheat.
MR. TURNER-It must be back further than where I looked, then.
MR. CARVIN-Is it attached to the side of the building?
MR. SPAHN-It's attached to the side of the building.
MR. TURNER-That's why I didn't see it.
MR. CARVIN-Yes, it's right by the driveway. There's a sign there.
MR . SPAHN - Yes. The r e 's a s i g n, a met a I s i g n . It' sat t a c h e d tot h e
building. It says, right turn only.
MR. CARVIN-But it must only be printed on the side facing away from
the highway. Is that correct?
MR. SPAHN-There's a sign on both sides.
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MR . CAR V I N - Boy, I' vel 00 ked t hat pro per t y 0 v era n d I' m s 0 r r y ,
Sonny, I haven't seen it. I saw the sign attached to the side of
the building, but I saw no writing on it, not on the road side. I
don't know what's on the back side.
MR. SPAHN-It's attached to the building. Correct.
MR. MARESCO-Doesn't that say, parking in rear? There's a sign.
MR. CARVIN-There's a sign that says parking in rear.
MR. MARESCO-Parking in rear.
MR. SPAHN-That one was removed. That one said additional parking
in rear. I took that off because I didn't think that it looked
well on the building.
MR. MULLER-Is there a sign that says, no left turn.
MR. SPAHN-There's a right turn only.
MR. CARVIN-Yes, but it's on the building.
MR. SPAHN-It's attached to the building.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but is it printed on both sides?
printed on the back side, on one side.
It's just
MR. MULLER-It's printed on the side that you would see it as you
were driving through.
MR. CARVIN-If you had driven into the building and were coming out
that side driveway. Correct?
MR. MULLER-You'd see it.
MR . CAR V I N - You'd see i t the r e , but i f you par ked i nth e fro nt,
you'd have no idea.
MR. SPAHN-No. There's something printed right in the front, too.
MR. CARVIN-I didn't see it.
MR. MARESCO-I didn't see anything either.
MR. SPAHN-I just notice it the other day because there was some
graffiti on there, a couple of weeks ago, which I washed it off.
I'm almost 100 percent sure it's a sign both ways. I can't
guarantee that.
MR. CARVIN-Well, I went by tonight again, just to check. I saw the
sign on the side of the building.
MR. SPAHN-That was done about three months ago, and it's the same
sign that's been sitting there for three months, so I'm so used to
it, but I know it says no right turn, was it no left turn.
MR. TURNER-No left turn.
MR. SPAHN-I don't remember what it said, but it's what the Board
wanted, I thought. If you want me to change that, I'll do that.
MR. MULLER-I haven't seen it in the last three weeks, but it was
there when I was there.
MR. SPAHN-It's still there.
MR. MULLER-Not because you said so, because I remember not being
allowed to make that turn.
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MR. CARVIN-Well, it's not very obvious.
MR. TURNER-It's not obvious.
MR. MULLER-Yes, it is. I want to say one other thing before, Mr.
Spahn looks like he's trying to give himself a black eye here, and
that is that the Staff comments also concern the issue of, he's
made representation that it was only shipping office supplies and
copying services, and Mr. Spahn, when I first went up there to see
the business, it's absolutely true, that is that he did not have a
machine that took negatives and made them into pictures, and I went
to his business location, and basically what I saw, before there
was any machine that made paper pictures out of negatives, whatever
negatives are made out of, he was doing what we had represented.
I didn't fully understand it, but if you went in there and you had
a slide, you could have a color photocopy made from the slide. If
you wanted your picture to be put on a cup, to be put on a tee-
shirt, to be put on a hat, to be put on a poster, it could be done.
Then he asked me, when he had the opportunity to purchase some of
the equipment when Pro-Fast Photo went out of business, he just
basically said to me, I want to do some photo reproductions. I
said, well, I'm not sure that that fits, and then we had a long
discussion about color photo copying and processing and the whole
bit, and I said, all right. I guess so, one's shiny, one's not.
It's basically the same process. It's a machine. He's got a
slightly different type of product. I would like to think that it
doesn't fall outside of color copying, but, you know, you're being
real narrow on that, if you disagree. It would be so foolish to
try to come back and try to impose upon this applicant a
requirement to have another variance so he can reprint pictures,
and that's what he's doing, but he wasn't doing it on paper. He's
doing it on everything else but paper.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. KARPELES-I
going to go.
and I haven't
going to go.
don't have a good picture of where this sign is
I mean, one picture is worth a thousand words, here,
see a sketch that shows where the sign is actually
MR. MULLER-It's a very fair question, just sort of moving into the
other application.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. KARPELES-I
application.
didn't
think
was moving into
the other
MR. TURNER-No.
Lets take care of the Use Variance first.
MR. KARPELES-I think it could have an effect on whether you re
going to approve the Use Variance or not, as to where it is.
MR. MULLER-If it does, then I'd like to talk about it.
MR. CAR V I N - Yes,
together.
agree with Bob.
The two of them ar e tied
MR. TURNER-All right. Well, then, lets read the application for
the Sign Variance, then we'll put them both together.
MS. CIPPERLY-Well, did you open the public hearing yet?
MR. TURNER-No. I'll open the public hearing for both of them,
since one is kind of related to the other.
MR. MARTIN-All right.
Is that all right with you, Mike?
MR. MULLER-Yes.
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MR. MARTIN-Okay.
OLD BUSINESS:
SIGN VARIANCE NO. )-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED RR-)A SONNY SPAHN
OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 51 AVIATION ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO
INSTALL A VINYL FOUR (4) FOOT BY SIX (6) FOOT, DOUBLE-SIDED,
FREESTANDING SIGN, SEVEN (7) FEET FROM THE PROPERTY LINE. SECTION
140-6B SPECIFIES THAT FREESTANDING SIGNS SHALL BE A MINIMUM OF
FIFTEEN (15) FEET FROM ANY PROPERTY LINE AND, FURTHER, THAT THE
SURFACE AREA OF ONE (1) SIDE SHALL NOT EXCEED FIFTY (50) SQUARE
FEET AT THAT FIFTEEN (15) FOOT SETBACK. APPLICANT IS SEEKING
REL I EF OF EIGHT ( 8) FEET FROM THE REQU I RED FIFTEEN (15) FOOT
SETBACK. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 1/16/94 TAX MAP NO. 7)-1-17
LOT SIZE: N/A SECTION: SIGN ORDINANCE
MICHAEL MULLER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Sign Variance No. 3-1994, Sonny Spahn, Meeting
Date: May IS, 1994 "APPLICANT: Sonny Spahn PROPOSED ACTION:
Applicant proposes to install a four (4) foot by six (6) foot vinyl
sign seven (7) feet f rom the proper ty line. CONFORMANCE WITH
USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 140-6B specifies that freestanding
signs shall be a minimum of fifteen (15) feet from any property
line and, the surface area of one side shall not exceed fifty (50)
square feet at that distance. Applicant is proposing a setback of
seven (7) feet and a sign size of twenty-four (24) square feet.
REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Due to the
small size of the front yard, a variance is required to site the
freestanding sign. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: There do not appear to
be any feasible alternatives that would not require a variance.
The wall sign currently in use is a reasonable alternative. IS
THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: This could be considered a substantial
amount of relief, as subsequent communication from the applicant
has stated that the desired relief is actually more than eight (S)
feet. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY?: Granting of this
variance would place a sign very close to an extremely busy
interchange, and could present a safety hazard. Aesthetically, it
would not appear to be an asset to the neighborhood. IS THIS
DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: The perception that a freestanding sign
is necessary is self-created. Mr. Spahn knew of the likely
problems with signage when seeking the variance to locate his
business here, but utilized this location anyway. STAFF COMMENTS
AND CONCERNS: No further comment.
MR. TURNER-Mr. Muller.
MR. MULLER-Mr. Karpeles, you asked, where's the actual location.
MR. KARPELES-Yes, I've got it, but I can't figure out where it is.
MR. MULLER-Okay. The Town Planners require that I inventory the
signs on this piece of paper. So the one that says, Number One,
it's the sign that's already there, and if you then move across the
paper in the center, you'll see a "2" in a circle. That's it.
That's what we're talking about. That would be the location. I
need to offer an explanation as to what's drawn here. Mr. Spahn
had to do this, this is hard to believe, but there was probably
five feet of snow when he had to do this thing (lost word) try to
find the sidewalk. That's why I didn't do a very good job of
actually finding that sidewalk the first time out, which is why I
wrote a letter to the Board, and, basically, what we have is we
have measured from the building, from the front of the building,
twenty-three feet from the front of the building, stuck a stake in
the ground. Did anybody see that? Okay. If we go four feet
beyond that stake, head i ng towards the road, that's wher e Mr.
Spahn's property line ends. If, however, the lawn continues for
another seven feet, which would be, basically, quite a bit of lawn
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and grass out there, and then the sidewalk continues on, until you
get to the road. Of course the Zoning Ordinance makes no
distinction here between what the apparent boundary line is and
what your real boundary line is. So we are, it is true, close to
the boundary line. We're not infringing on the right-of-way.
We're not even close to the sidewalk.
MR. CARVIN-When I was out there, it looks like you have put down
some new blacktop. Are you trying to expand that parking in the
front by any chance?
MR. SPAHN-No. By the way, that was done today, and what I did,
because the parking lot has some bumps in it, and it gets muddy
there when the snow melts, I originally had plans so that my
hand i capped en trance, the hand i capped peop 1 e wou 1 dn 't ge t the i r
feet wet, and the first opportunity I had was today, is to blacktop
that area, so that the handicapped people won't have to go into the
muddy areas. They can come right up the extended wide walkway, the
entrance to the front.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but that's not going to be used for parking?
MR. SPAHN-Some people do park there.
MR. CARVIN-All right.
MR. MULLER-It's inevitable, but if you had gone to this location
and parked in the back, you would enter by the principal entrance.
You would, that is that 'it's logical, once you're in the back, you
open the door, you're in the main entrance. You can see that, but
there are people parking in the front, which is actually the back
entrance.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Are you going to open up the public hearing?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-I mean, just before we can.
MR. TURNER-Yes. Okay. No further questions of the applicant then,
at this point, from anyone? Okay. I'll open the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
NO COMMENT
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-All right.
MR. CARVIN-The panel truck that has been sitting out there for the
last, I'm going to say, two weeks anyway. It's been there quite a
while. It wasn't there tonight I noticed.
MR. SPAHN-That's because they were doing the asphalt front.
to move it to the rear.
I had
MR. CARVIN-Would you guess that that panel truck is going to be
approximately the size of the freestanding sign? In other words,
is that a good comparison, or will the sign be larger?
MR. SPAHN-Much smaller.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Now, the truck has been there for?
MR. SPAHN-It's been there since they opened up, sir.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, and yet you maintain that your business has been
slow and you've had, essentially, a larger sign there for a period
of time. So how is a smaller sign going to be advantageous?
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MR. SPAHN-First of all, the truck 1S not there on a continual
bas is. Some times I take the tr uck home. Somet imes one 0 f my
employees who does not have an automobile, they take it home when
they leave at five o'clock, and make pickups with it. However, if
the Board allows the sign, I will agree to take my truck and move
it to the side, and not in front of the building.
MR . CAR V I N - Yes . The 0 n 1 y rea son I' mas kin g t hat que s t ion i s
because, maybe it's just happenstance, but it seems like just about
every time l go by there, which is, I won't say several times a
day, but it seems to be frequently there. I notice the first time
I went by that it was very distractive, because you are narrowing
the vision up through there for this east/west traffic. I'm just
saying that moving the truck is one thing, but now we're asking to
put a permanent sign there, freestanding, and I'm assuming that
that's going to be a solid.
MR. SPAHN-That's true. I do believe the sign, in accordance with
the size of the building, is much more in proportion than the van.
I do find, I don't really know that the van really helped me, but
I need the van to make my pickups and de 1 i ver i es , and ha vi ng
another location in Downtown Glens Falls in the near future, it
would even be parked less at this location. That I am willing to
take the van, move the van, which has lettering on it, away from
the front of the building. Because it could be a hinderance to me,
because the size of the van is really blocking the building.
MR. MULLER-I believe that what Mr. Spahn's best proposition is,
there's a need for some indication, with east/west traffic, and
principally that's all there is there, to know that his business is
there. It's stretching it, I believe, to believe that the one sign
that's on the facade is going to do it. That's why Highway
Commercial businesses are allowed a freestanding sign. It's a
Highway Commercial business.
MR. CARVIN-I have a hard time with that, also, because of the
unique location right there. He is closer to the road than any of
the other businesses. There is a traffic light right in front, and
he has, i n ma n y cas e s, a cap t i v e au die n c e . I mea n , i f you' r e
stopped at that red light, you cannot help but notice your building
right there, and that sign that he has on the building is a lit
sign, and it does have some very unusual colors. So it is, I'm
using the term "attractive", not in a beautiful sense, but it
captures your attention, I guess.
MR. MULLER-The law refers to that as an attractive nuisance.
MR. CARVIN-There you go, but, again, as I said, l have a hard time
going east and west and not noticing the place. '
MR. SPAHN-May I answer that question, Mr. Carvin?
MR. CARVIN-Absolutely.
Sure.
MR. SPAHN-The traffic, where it's most noticeable, is people coming
from, possibly, Lake George, north, going south, getting off at
Exit 19, through the underpass, and then facing my building.
That's my sign on the front building, it's the only area that
rea 11 y a t t r act s . The ma j or i t Y 0 f the car s that go by , the
business, is from West Mountain and the east side of Queensbury.
Thank you.
MR. CARVIN-I don't know. Has anybody else gone by there?
MR. MARESCO-l pass by there at least three or four times a day. I
don't think there's any possible way not to see your building.
It's, I mean, it stares you right directly in the face, whether
you're coming east, west, south, or north. It's there. There's no
possible way to not see it.
- 9 -
MR. SPAHN-When they're driving and they're looking ahead, they
don't see what I'm doing there.
MR. MARESCO-I see what you're doing there constantly.
MR. SPAHN-Yes, they see the building there, but they don't know
what I'm doing. They have to take their eyes off the road and look
up at my sign above the building, and that is dangerous.
MR. MARESCO-Right, but most people that are passing by live either
east or west. So they go by that more than once a day. At one
point, they, I mean, if you've taken a survey, I'm sure 90 percent
of the people that live there know your building is there. These
are residential people that live there. These aren't tourists that
are coming by only once.
MR. SPAHN-That makes me happy to some extent, because my
advertising radio has probably paid off, but there's a tremendous
growth area, in the future, on West Mountain, and on the east side
and the west side, and not everybody who's there presently are
permanent residents, and I do feel, for the long term, and I don't
say long term, because as we all know, when the bridge is widened,
I may lose my property, but for the short time, I would appreciate
if the Board would allow me to have that sign, so I could at least
recoup. At this point, I am doing business, I'm spending more than
I'm earning, not earning, taking in. I'm not drawing a salary, but
the expense of advertising, radio, and through the media, is quite
expensive, and I need that because I'm only three months old, and,
again, to reiterate, if the Board would allow that, it may only be
for two years or three years that someone will be there, because
when the (lost word) take that sign with them, and probably my
building, too. I'm not sure.
MR. TURNER-Being there only three months.
MR. SPAHN-February 21st was my opening day.
MR. TURNER-Yes, all right.
MR. SPAHN-It will only be four months, excuse me.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Where does your clientele come from?
MR. SPAHN-My clientele comes from mostly upstate. It comes from
all areas. I can't really pinpoint because I don't ask them where
the y I i ve . The y do s i g n c h e c k s, and I don't de p 0 sit them.
Otherwise, I would look at the check where they came from. I
really don't know. I see Queensbury and I see Glens Falls. I see
different areas, Fort Ann. I remember I've seen Fort Edward, but
these are people who are already established in living, and I'm
sure they heard of me by way of radio or some other media.
MR. MULLER-I'd like to make a suggestion, that is that neither Mr.
Spahn nor I wish to stonewall you on this. He'd like very much to
have the sign. Obviously, if you're against it for some valid
reasons, you're going to vote against it. I think what's really
important is that it's a high profile building and a high profile
location. Just speaking here as a citizen in Queensbury, I don't
want to put Mr. Spahn in a position to do oddball stuff, like we
all see oddball stuff going on, huge American flags, totally legit.
Nobody can regulate it. Parking the van out front, which he's been
doing, and I explained to him, well, it's a registered vehicle.
It's okay, but it kind of flies in the face of the Sign Ordinance.
It must be a smaller sign, if you feel comfortable with it, I
believe Mr. Spahn's willing to live with that, but he'd like very
much to have a freestanding sign, and I have not done a complete
inventory of every Highway Commercial piece of property in
Queensbury, but Highway Commercial uses all have freestanding
signs, that's why I thought it was reasonable to ask for it. It's
a sma 11 e r s i g n , s 0 that it' s no t a s a f e t y cons ide r at i on or a
- 10 -
traffic nuisance, so to speak, (lost word) put this piece of
property in that situation where, after we had a denial, Mr. Spahn
wanted to go back and said, well, can I put a huge American flag
there. The answer is yes. I don't prefer that. Can I continue to
park my van there? Probably. Even though it's a sign? Yes, and
we've discussed it all. I remember asking Susan or Jim about signs
that are on wheels. Those are prohibited by Queensbury. We didn't
do it. He'd like a sign. Hopefully there's some middle ground we
can reach here, so that we don't, so that he's not attracting
people here from some extraordinary way that we all know like (lost
word) the applicant.
MR. TURNER-Anyone else?
MR. THOMAS-Have you put any thought into putting, like, a roof sign
of some kind on, that would face east and west?
MR. MULLER-I think those are prohibited?
MR. TURNER-Over the ridge, under the ridge they can have it.
MR. MARTIN-As long as they don't alter the profile of the building,
Mike.
MR. TURNER-Right.
MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, and it would, if it was facing east and west.
MR. MULLER-Seriously, can you think of one that would go on there,
and not alter the?
MS. CIPPERLY-If you want to get east/west attention, you re not
going to do it. The only thing l can think of is another, like a
wall sign on the east or west side of the building.
MR. CARVIN-Which is impractical also, because the east side faces
the road, and the west side faces the school.
MR. MULLER-You probably thought he was kidding when he said it. I
thought he was kidding when he first told me. He was going to put
a ridge sign across the top of the building that says "Welcome To
Queensbury".
MR. SPAHN-And I sti 11 would do it. I think
particular area, which is the entranceway to
19, and I'm doing what I can to justify, and
I've done. I just started painting today.
sure you'll be satisfied with what I'm doing
I'm beautifying
Queensbury from
you can look at
I had to stop.
there.
that
Exit
what
I'm
MR. MARESCO-The Light Blue, right?
MR. SPAHN-There's more.
It's a surprise.
MR. MARESCO-Is it going to be red, white, and blue?
MR. SPAHN-No.
MR. MULLER-No.
It's going to be blue.
MR. MARTIN-Solid blue?
MR. SPAHN-When I had my
guess what color it was,
one guessed it.
1 i ve broadcas t ther e two weeks ago, to
I offered $100 gift certificate, but no
MR. MULLER-But anyway, I think I've tried to talk, Mr. Spahn has no
idea of the rules and regulations that you go by, and when we first
started out, he had an application that probably had five, six
signs.
- 11 -
MR. TURNER-Yes, I saw it.
MR. MULLER-I assure you that I've been working very hard to try to
get him back down to where I thought you could approve something.
I'd 1 ike you to approve something, so that we don't make an
attractive nuisance out there. It's a nice gesture to put the
ridge sign up that says, Welcome to the Town Queensbury. I don't
think you want it, and I don't think a lot of people would want it.
It's probably not even comnercial speech. Maybe he has a first
amendment right to do that. I don't ever want to reach that issue.
I just really want to get him a freestanding sign, something that
allows him to give notice that he's got a business in here, and
he's, and east/west traffic. If he gets that, I think he's well
served by the Board. It's a reasonable compromise. It may not be
four by six. You tell us what you want.
MR. MARESCO-Well, I have just two more things to say. According to
the Post Star, though, it says, "I'm still positive on the rebirth
o f do w n tow n ," Spa h n s aid. " I t h an k the are a for ma kin g mea
success at Exit 19." Obviously, people know he's there. The
article that was in the Post Star, stating that you thanked the
Town of Queensbury for the success that you've had so far. Is that
correct? That was quoting you? All right. So, obviously, people
know you're there. I mean, I understand what you're doing.
MR. SPAHN-Are you talking about Downtown?
MR. MARESCO-No, no. That's Queensbury, right?
MR. TURNER-Queensbury.
MR. MULLER-You're on the record as saying, "I'm still positive on
the rebirth of Downtown", Spahn said. "I thank the area for making
me a success at Exit 19."
MR. SPAHN-Well, I wasn't going to say, thank you for making me a
failure and that I'm not making any money. Besides, what paper was
this?
MR. MARESCO-This was the Post Star.
MR. THOMAS-I think it was the Chronicle.
MR. MARESCO-Was it the Chronicle? Okay. Whatever, the Chronicle.
I understand what you're trying to do there, and it's very
comnendable, I think, but what you may think it beautifying the
area, some other people may think it's an eyesore.
MR. SPAHN-From what it was before I took it over?
MR. MARESCO-Not from what it was before, because I've seen what it
was before, also. I think you're doing a good job, but I think it
just doesn't fit there, and adding the other sign is only going to
add more distraction from there.
MR. SPAHN-Mr. Maresco, I told the Board that I'd be willing, on a
permanent basis, to take my van away from the front of the
building.
MR. MARESCO-And put it where? You had said to the side.
MR. SPAHN-On the side, in back of my property line, on the side,
and replace it with this four by six sign, which is much smaller,
in proportion with the building, if you'll allow me, and grant that
sign to me. I'm willing to do everything in my power to work with
the Board, to reiterate, even going one step beyond, to making my
plantings, putting gravel, doing things for senior citizens,
greeting my people, making it pleasant inside, and I'm busy, so
anybody's welcome to come in and see what I've done inside. I
don't know if you've been there.
- 12 -
MR. MARESCQ-I have.
great inside.
I've been inside.
It looks good.
I t looks
MR. SPAHN-And it took an extra step to do that. It's not just a
box or a log cabin. It's done with, I think, good taste, and with
great thinking, and I thought about this. I've been a businessman
all my life, and I'm trying to put my best foot forward and doing
things that please the community, because I myself am a resident of
the community. I certainly wouldn't do anything that was
detrimental, and I'd like to reiterate again, in one of the
articles that was in the paper, and I did mention that I'm proud to
live in Queensbury, because I know what l went through, with the
zoning before, and to subdivide it, change it, and all the things
I had to go through, and being a resident in Queensbury, makes me
proud that they're doing this, because you're not doing it just to
me, but you're doing it to everybody. So I'm proud of living in
Queensbury, and it'll never become, the word I use, honky tonk.
MR. MARESCO-Yes. It's certainly nothing personal, with you. It's
just like you had said, it's just what we want to do to keep the
area looking the way that we're proud to have it look.
MR. SPAHN-Then trust me.
MR. MARTIN-Yes, but the question has to come to mind, a spectrum of
blue exterior paint on the building does not exactly fly in the
face of honky tonk.
MR. SPAHN-If, when I'm through with the building, the Board objects
to the building, any color, I will repaint it.
MR. MARTIN-Well, we don't have any standing in that.
MR. SPAHN-I'm willing to do anything. All I'm requesting is this
four by six sign to help me notify the people, and believe me, it's
set back far enough from the road, from the actual road, that it's
not endangering anybody.
MISS HAUSER-I just have one question about what you just said.
Looking at the necessary requirements that have to be met for the
Use Variance, I don't see where we can necessarily meet the
requirements, but because we have given him commercial usage of the
property, and ordinarily a commercial business would be allowed a
freestanding sign, I personally don't see a problem with him having
a freestanding sign, except for the fact, I'm wondering if there
may be a traffic hazard, that's my only concern, and by looking at
that stake in the road, or, I'm sorry, not in the road, but in the
grass, I wasn't really given a real indication if that would be a
problem, and I was just sitting here thinking, if we had had a mock
up sign, it might have been easier for us to determine if, indeed,
it would have been a hazard, because if it's not, then I personally
don't have a problem with it.
MR. SPAHN-Mr. Muller put the stake in the ground, and I was there
with him, in the snow, and it's still standing there, and if you
see where the stake is, you would realize how far set back it is
from the main road, and the stake is still there, and if the Board
does not wish to vote on this, and vote on it amongst yourself
until everybody comes up and looks at it, I'm willing to wait
another week.
MR. MULLER-Miss Hauser, it's a sign, that stake was intended to
point out the leading edge of the sign, would be the most
offensive, in terms of encroaching upon the setback. It's at that
point, go six feet towards the house. So, I guess if this Board,
I could not find another place to put the sign. I thought about
putting it on the side of the property, which would be the easterly
side of the property. It was just not possible. It would just be
a target for people doing three point turns. Thought about putting
it up on the westerly side of the property, and it just is under a
- 13 -
tree. So I moved back to the middle. That's what I thought was
best, and then I really tried to find a location that would please
most people, including my client. You could go closer to the
house, but eventually, we'd have to realize that it is a
freestanding sign that's not attached to the house, and if it goes
closer to the house, maybe it should be smaller. We're not asking
you to go any closer to the road then where it was marked, but if
you decide that a four foot wide sign, and a three foot high sign
is appropriate for the safety aspects, then obviously we need two
feet less in the way of relief. We're not asking for an oversized
sign. I think it's substantially undersized. It's just a question
of, if we could be permitted a sign, where would this thing go?
MR. CARVIN-I have a question, Ted. Warren County turned this down,
so we would need, what, a majority plus one?
MR. TURNER-A majority plus one. Yes.
MR. CARVIN-So we would need, what, six votes?
MR. TURNER-Five votes.
MR. MULLER-They turned down one of them.
MR. TURNER-The Use Variance.
MR. MULLER-Because they claimed they didn't have a picture of the
sign.
MR . MART I N - Well, the y we r e un c 1 ear
didn't, believe it or not, they did
sign. They thought that was just
something, they were here putting
didn't think that was a sign.
as to the 1 oca t i on. They
not realize that that was a
simply an advertising flyer,
in the application, and they
MS. CIPPERLY-They looked at this, and said they didn't know what
that was. Was that the sign or not? But we got another
application back this week from the County that implied that they
routinely will deny Sign Variances because they don't want to, I
can't remember their exact wording, but they will deny them,
because they didn't want to counter the Town of Queensbury Sign
Ordinance.
MR. CARVIN-So that kind of puts a hardship on us, because we need
a majority plus one.
MS. CIPPERLY-Yes.
MR. MULLER-It certainly puts a hardship on the applicant.
MS. CIPPERLY-So, whether they had understood this or not, if that's
what their policy really is, then they would have denied it anyway.
MR. MULLER-We probably went wrong when we gave them a color
photocopy.
MR. TURNER-Yes, it looks like it, and while we're talking about the
sign copy, the telephone number can't be on the sign.
MR. MULLER-Yes, you're absolutely right. Mr. Spahn's not going to
object to that. My only comment, so I can at least put it on the
record is that, well, the Zoning Board of Appeals probably has no
legitimate basis to regulate copy on a sign. It's probably a
violation of an applicant's first amendment right, but we're going
to sit here and allow you to do that, because that's not important.
We'd like a sign that says "Exit 19 Color Copy Center", and we'll
save that one for another day.
MR. KARPELES-I 've got a question in my mind.
choice between the truck and the sign, or IS
Are we being given a
the truck going to be
- 14 -
removed anyway, whether we approve this or disapprove it?
MR. SPAHN-It's whatever the Board requests me to do, I will abide.
MR. TURNER-Mr. Spahn, I think what the Board is asking that you put
the truck behind the building if you want the freestanding sign.
MR. SPAHN-If that's the only way I can get a sign, granted.
MR. TURNER-Because that sticks you out there with two signs, in a
sense.
MR. MULLER-I think that that's absolutely reasonable, but we all
know, I'm thinking of Pat's Diner, okay. The guy's got a truck out
there with an arrow.
MR. TURNER-I know.
MR. MULLER - I know what that is.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
That's a sign on wheels.
MR. MULLER-I don't want Mr. Spahn to do that. We have worked back
from an application asking for five signs, getting as little down
to what I think is reasonable, and it's not unreasonable to require
that he park his van off, in the back, not utilizing it as a sign.
We would certainly abide by that condition, and that's a very tough
thing to regulate, and these planners are not going to be out there
camping out, and they're probably going to tell us. If you had
allowed him to put his phone number on the sign, they'd be able to
call him and tell him when he's parking in the wrong spot.
MR. TURNER-We've got his number anyway. We'll call you
MR. MULLER-You can call me.
I've been trying to, I've gone
that, Sonny, yes, it's lawful
It's not a preferred method of
I would not allow him to do that.
the middle ground on this, which is
to park your van there as a sign.
doing business.
MR. TURNER-Well, I don't want to get into the other aspect of it,
but I'm going to anyway. That location is the toughest location in
Town to do business.
MR. MULLER-Absolutely.
MR. TURNER-He bought himself an awful hardship.
MR. SPAHN-I'd be glad to sell it for what I paid for it.
MR. TURNER-I know what you paid for it, because you told us the
last time, but it's an awful place to do business, and you went in
there knowing that. You had to know that.
MR. SPAHN-No. I went in there because I had no alternative. I
couldn't sell it. Nobody wanted it. I was restricted because Carl
DeSantis had a restriction on the property, no food. People
offered me, they wanted to put, I don't know if they would have
gotten a variance, but they wanted to put hamburger places, food,
ice c ream par lor s . I to 1 d them, no, no, no. I co u 1 d n 't do it,
because there was a restrictive variance. I couldn't put any food.
MR. TURNER-Even if you could have put it there, it would have never
taken.
MR. SPAHN-I know that.
I didn't know it then, but I know now.
MR. TURNER-That's why she went, Mrs. Bissell went, because she
co u 1 d n 't ma k e i t got her e , jus t be c a use 0 f the t r a f f i cpa t t ern
there.
- 15 -
MR. CARVIN-My understanding is you bought it at a tax sale. You
bought it at a tax sale, is that correct?
MR. MULLER-He bought it at a foreclosure.
MR. SPAHN-Yes, it was a foreclosure. I tried to help Elaina out.
If I didn't buy it, she would lose her personal house, and I didn't
realize, I thought I was buying, I wasn't prepared, I thought I was
buying commercial property, until I found out it was residential,
and, buyer beware.
MR. MULLER-Mr. Spahn's argument is what is often called the empty
head and the pure heart, which is he did go into this thing with a
pure heart and he had a completely empty head, which is 20/20
hindsight which said, you've got to check the zoning. He didn't.
He bought it at a foreclosure sale, basically to help Mrs. Bissell
out who also had a loan tied to her home. When the bank
foreclosed, he came in and he bid what I consider to be well over
what that property is worth. Empty head. He then proceeded to
tell me, when we met, that he thought it was an ideal location for
an ice cream store.
MR. SPAHN-Frozen custard.
MR. MULLER-I really was looking forward to the evening when I would
come before you to tell you we need a variance to put an ice cream
store there. I thought I was going to have my head handed to me,
and I found in the deed covenants that Mrs. Bissell, in exchange
for a small piece of property, contracted with DeSantis Enterprises
that would prohibit any business that deals with food at that
location, and that was out.
MR. SPAHN-Or alcoholic beverages.
MR. MULLER-Yes, so that was out, and alcoholic beverages never
would have been in the cards here, not being close to a school or
a church, okay, so every conceivable thing that you might like to
do there seemed to get blocked out, and then Mr. Spahn came up with
the possibility that it would be a color tile franchise, tile
store. I said to him, well, that's sort of neutral, possibility.
I'd consider it, something you may wish to apply for. He then came
up with what he presently does. It is a horrible piece of
property. It has every possible constraint on it. I have
difficulty every time I try to figure out what he can do with this
piece of property, and then when you look at it, try to figure out
what you can do with the facility that's on it, how do you change
it? How do you make i t tall e r , I 00 k be t t e r ? He's done a
substantial amount of work replacing what I consider to be some
really first class rot all around the building. The exterior of
the building was built with chip board, which is not exterior
boarding. It was coming apart, coming down. He pulled it all off,
replaced it, scraping it, and he is painting it, not my choice, I
don't know how far we get into it, but it's blue, blue, blue, and
blue, four blues.
MR. SPAHN-Different shades.
MR. MULLER-Different shades of blue.
MR. SPAHN-It gets lighter from the top. Gray is up there now, and
then it gets another shade, which is bluer, and then it gets bluer
near the base, because when we sprinkle the lawn, all that dirt and
dust from the, comes on to the building, so it's darker blue down
below, not as strong as the trim.
MR. MULLER-But you sit there and you can't possibly believe that
that's going to look good, and what he said to you was, if you
would at least allow to work with him, give him a freestanding
sign, (lost word) even though perhaps it's not permitted clearly in
the Zoning Ordinance, you get the final say on the building, if you
- 16 -
don't like the way it looks. Didn't you say that?
MR. SPAHN-I did.
mean everything I say.
MR. KARPELES-I have trouble with the hardship, and the necessity
for the sign. You were real happy, the last time, when we gave you
the variance to put the business in there. You were happy with the
sign location. I read in the paper about you were making a success
of it. Now I'm having trouble being convinced that you really need
this sign.
MR. SPAHN-It's a cliche, don't always believe what you read. I
certainly wasn't going to be negative talking about my business,
but you're welcome to come up and look at my books. You can see
what my expenditures are and what my income is. I'm planning to,
down the road, hopefully, if the State doesn't take my building
before I can recoup my losses, again, don't always believe what you
read. What I'm looking at over here is, I thank the area for
making me a success. What else can I say when they interview me?
Yes, and if anybody asks me right now, I tell them, great guns. No
way am I covering my costs.
MR. KARPELES-When you say your costs, are you including your cost
of capital improvements now?
MR. SPAHN-My machinery, my advertising. There's no way I can see
anything for the full year. I'm going to have to cut back my
advertising in July. I mean, this is a hardship, unless I get new
accounts.
MR. CARVIN-I think that's one of the fallacies that we sometimes
step into, is that a sign is just a conduit for new business, and
I don't think that that's always the case.
MR. MULLER-It might
advertise, though, is
there.
not be.
tha t he's
I think that what we want to
there, and that's what he does
MR. CARVIN-Yes, and, again, my feeling is, think that there's
plenty adequate notice that the building is there. That what is
being occupied, because of the unique situation. I have to agree,
in part, with Bob. I think that this is a very self-created
situation, going right back to the beginning, and I think Sonny's
hands are tied. You really can't bulldoze the place down and put
a lot of money into it, because there is the likelihood that the
State's going to come in. So, I mean, where do you draw the line?
Do you repave the parking lot? So, I mean, you end up with kind of
a, pardon the expression, half assed situation out there.
MR. SPAHN-I'm just doing what the senior citizens, if you notice,
I only did that in the front, where the senior citizens.
MR. CARVIN-Well, what I'm saying is that you've got gravel. You've
got three different shades of blacktop out there, and the thing
that we're trying to avoid, and I'm not being critical of this, but
it turns into a honky tonk. You're going to have a sign out there,
if you look, you've got a gravel driveway. You've got an entry
there that is not distinguishable because it spreads allover.
You've got people parking anywhere that they want in there. They
can park out front. They can park in the back. They could
probably park in the street, if they could get away with it. You
have no definite entry and exit out of the place.
MR. SPAHN-CLost word) sign that says, parking in the rear.
MR. CARVIN-Okay, but it's so broad and whatnot, that it's just not
up to specs.
MR. SPAHN-So what are you suggesting?
- 17 -
MR. CARVIN-I'm not suggesting anything, Sonny. I'm just saying, I
know you can't do anything, I mean, because I wouldn't, if it was
me.
MR. SPAHN-I'm trying to do things so that the senior citizens, or
people who come to the front, don't get their feet in the mud that
was there.
MR. CARVIN-I'm trying to put myself in your, and
couldn't spend $50,000 to put that all up because.
know tha t 1
MR. SPAHN-That cost me $370, sir, and I gave him the check today.
That's all I could afford to give him, and that's all he was going
to do.
MR. CARVIN-But I also am saying that a lot of this is self-created,
and I still think that if we put a freestanding sign there, that
it's going to be a visual impact, or have a visual impact on the
safety issue, going up and down that road, very similar to what the
truck was, and probably will be.
MR. SPAHN-The Board has to make the decision, in the meantime, not
to be facetious, I'm paying Mr. Muller by the hour. I'd like the
ZBA to come to a decision and vote on it.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
remarks?
No further discussion? Chris, do you have any
MR. THOMAS-The only thing ~ like to say is, if you take a four by
six sign, that's smaller than a sheet of plywood, okay. Maybe it
doesn't have to be four feet in the air, or three foot, seven foot
to the top, so it would be three foot off the ground. Maybe if you
put it two foot off the ground and knocked it down to three feet
high, instead of being six foot wide, make it five foot wide.
MR. CARVIN-Or, we could, he's got a two by ten, is it, what's the
sign on the building now?
MR. TURNER-Two by ten, twenty square feet.
MR. CARVIN-Make that a four by six.
MR. THOMAS-But I do believe you need something out front there, for
advertising, because we did give him a variance for Highway
Commercial. I mean, this is a commercial piece of property. We
gave it to him, so I think he should get the sign that goes with
it. I think we should regulate it and make it smaller than they
ask for, and I think it should be closer to the ground, but you've
got to remember, that sign is smaller than anyone of these tables.
So that's not really a big sign, compared to the building, compared
to how far back it sits off the sidewalk or the road. So I have no
problem giving him a sign, knocked down to three by five, two foot
off the ground.
MR. MULLER-I'm not sure could convince members of the Board,
here, maybe Fred, who has a concern about the safety aspects of it.
Honest to God, your concern about the safety aspects (lost word)
speculative, that is that we don't have any hard evidence.
MR. CARVIN-So is the sign bringing in business is speculative.
MR. MULLER-I'm going to tell you that the sign is not necessary to
bring in business. The sign is just basically there to identify
what goes on, and it's pretty standard in Highway Commercial. If
I go that far in that argument, that's why I keep saying that I'm
hard-pressed to give you a hardship argument. I don't know why I
need to. That is that if you hold me to, you must show that there
is a loss of revenue here, we deny this thing, just please take a
look at the piece of property, that is that it is not residential.
So what is it? You folks made it Highway Commercial, because we
- 18-
asked you to. That was very reasonable. The Mobil station is
across the street, or it would be if the Northway wasn't there, I
mean, freestanding signs, canopy, the whole bit. People are not
driving off the road on account of the Mobil being there. We take
that for granted. Even the School has a freestanding sign. We
take that for granted. Churches have a freestanding sign. We take
that for granted. This is not a big request, and when we get
concerned about it, I sure don't want to have my appl icant or
myself be a part of putting something out there that's going to be
a monstrosity or a safety concern. Monstrosity argument, I think
that we can handle this evening. The safety argument is
speculative. It really is, that is that having absolutely no sign
there we're absolutely assured there couldn't possibly be a safety
problem, because no one will look at nothing.
MR. TURNER-Let me just say this, the other night when I went up
there to look at the site and he had the truck parked out by the
road, that caught my eye right away. All right. That took my eye
right off the road.
MR. MULLER-And you don't like it, do you?
MR. TURNER-I don't like it.
MR. MULLER-And I don't like it.
MR. TURNER-And I think the truck should be in the back in the
parking lot, out of site.
MR. SPAHN-Done.
MR. TURNER-I don't have a problem with a small sign, and we did put
you there, and you don't have to prove the hardship, I don't think,
because we've already established the fact that that property
couldn't be used as zoned.
MR. MULLER-Yes, I like your argument. It's an excellent one. We
haven't created this hardship. That is that, I gave you that
argument about the empty head and the pure heart, but we haven't.
The burden goes with this property.
MR. TURNER-Yes, the burden. Whether he succeeds or not is another
avenue, but we put you there. We said it couldn't be used
residential.
MR. MULLER-And you remember, maybe it should be part of the record
on this application. This is a piece of property that had to
ac t ua 11 y go thr ough a Supr eme Cour t proceed i ng to remove the
residential limitations on it, and it was absolutely without
opposition by some forty owners. You know why this house stands
there all by itself. It was part of the Greenway North
Subdivision.
MR. TURNER-Right.
MR. MULLER-But the Northway sliced it, so there it sits. I mean,
if there was ever a piece of property that was unique, and you
wanted to be strict about your Zoning Ordinance, this is it. It's
a mess.
MR. TURNER-What's the smallest sign you think that you could use at
that site and still satisfy your needs? Mr. Thomas had a corrunent
as to the size of the sign.
MR. SPAHN-Well, as I understand, which I wasn't aware that no phone
numbers are allowed, and that would take about three inches off the
bottom.
MR. TURNER-You're allowed the principal name of the business.
- 19 -
MR. SPAHN-Please keep in mind, in the winter months, when the snow
is like it was, that sign will be buried. That's why I need the
height.
MISS HAUSER-What do you have to that cormnent, Chris? You wanted
the sign lower.
MR. THOMAS-Yes, three by five.
MR. MULLER-Three by five.
MR. THOMAS-Two feet off the ground.
MISS HAUSER-And he's saying that it has to be the height.
MR. THOMAS-Well, they've got it three feet off the ground now.
Lower it a foot, cut a foot off the top.
MISS HAUSER-But he's saying that if we have snow like we did this
winter, that you wouldn't be able to see it, which is true. Right?
MR. THOMAS-If we had snow like this winter, next winter, you
wouldn't be able to see that sign anyway, if it sits seven feet off
out of the ground. It depends on how you plow the snow.
MR. MULLER-I think you solve that by snow removal. Mr. Spahn said
three by five is fine.
MR. TURNER-Three by five, and do you agree with Mr. Thomas as to
the height, two feet off the ground?
MR. THOMAS-Two feet off the ground and five feet high. I think
that would mitigate some of the safety concerns, because you'd be
able to see over the top of it.
MR. MARTIN-The van parked in the rear.
MR. TURNER-And the van parked in the rear. Mr. Muller, I would
suggest that Mr. Spahn also indicate, on the no right turn, put it
out where you can see the thing, because I missed it, or I mean, no
left turn. I'm sorry.
MR. SPAHN-Mr. Turner, I'm willing, if you'll just tell me where I
can put it. I can put it on the telephone pole, but I don't think
the utility company would like that.
MR. MULLER - I
requirement.
don't h a v e a pro b 1 em wit h t hat . You ma k e ita
I must be the only person here that saw this sign.
MR. TURNER-To tell you the truth, I never even saw it, because i
didn't look where, looked where I thought it ought to be, not
where it is.
MR. MULLER-Okay. Well, failure to obey a traffic control device is
a two point violation. So, if you didn't see it, I just want to
recormnend that you could have gotten a ticket. I can assure you,
Mr. Spahn, I will show him where to buy the sign, from Adirondack
Highway Materials, and we will put the sign up. It's on his
property, and it will be one of those arrows that go with,
Ghostbusters, whatever it is.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Motion's in order. I think we ve talked about it
long enough. Do you want to move it, Chris?
MR. THOMAS-How do you want to move it? Do you want to move them
both at the same time, or one at a time?
MR. MARTIN-You did both public hearings, right, Ted? You opened
both public hearings when you did that?
- 20 -
MR. TURNER-Yes. I'll open it. We didn't open this one, but I'll
open it. I'll open the public hearing on this application.
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
NO COMMENT
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-Lets take the Use Variance first, Chris, whether he
needs it or not, what your thoughts are there.
MR. THOMAS-Want to do the Use Variance first and the Sign Variance
second?
MR. TURNER-Right.
MR. THOMAS-Okay.
MOTION TO APPROVE USE VARIANCE NO. 20-1994 SONNY SPAHN, Introduced
by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Linda
Hauser:
The variance is a request to operate a commercial business in a
Rural Residential zone, which was granted a Use Variance on October
27th, 1993 by this Board. The Use Variance is also required to
install a sign, as per Section 140-6B(3)(a), which allows signs
only in C & M zones. Section 179-150 does not allow signs as a
permitted use in a residential zone. The hardship with the
property is its unique character, being isolated on the east by the
Northway, on the west by the School, and on the south by Aviation
Road. It was part of a preexisting subdivision known as Greenway
North, and by the division of the Northway from the subdivision, it
isolated this one piece of property, therefore, creating a
hardship. The subject property has been before this Board on a
pr ev i ous var i ance wh i ch allowed a beau ty shop ther e. So the
hardship has already been met, previously and now. Therefore,
since this Board has taken the liberty to grant a Use Variance for
this unique piece of property, this Board should also grant a Use
Variance for this proposed sign by the applicant. The hardship has
been well documented and demonstrated by the applicant.
Duly adopted this 18th day of May, 1994, by the following vote:
MR. CAR V I N - I jus t h a v e a que s t ion 0 nth e mo t ion, be for e it' s
seconded. Does this mean that if we grant, in the future,
commercial variances, that it automatically allows them a
freestanding sign?
MR. TURNER-No. every piece of property is unique, and I think
this is a special exception. This piece of property is so isolated
and so restricted to any kind of development, and being utilized In
the way that it has been, previously it was a residence.
MR. CARVIN-Then I would ask for the motion to be read back before
it's seconded to make sure the language is correct, because I think
there is a Section in there that would lead me to believe that if
we grant commercial variances that we, in effect, are allowing
freestanding signs.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MR. CARVIN-I think that if somebody were to come in the future and
get a commercial variance, that they could refer to that motion,
that because the commercial variance, the Board should also allow
the freestanding sign.
MR. TURNER-Taken the liberty to grant a Use Variance, take the
"commercial use" out of it. Would that do it?
MISS HAUSER-You could say, for this unique property.
- 21 -
MR. TURNER-For this unique property.
MR. CARVIN-I just don't want to plant a land mine.
MR. TURNER-Yes, good point. No, I don't want to blow my foot off
either.
MR. MULLER-Mr. Turner, could I just say something, so that, maybe
persuade anybody who's thinking no to maybe thinking yes? That is
that conditioned upon Mr. Spahn is going to put that sign up that
he's required to do, but he's going to have that sign up this week,
no left turn.
MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, my understanding of this is this is just
the motion to grant him the freestanding sign.
MR. MULLER-You want that packaged in the next one?
MR. TURNER-We'll put it in the next one.
MR. MULLER-All right.
AYES: Mr. Thomas, Mr. Karpeles, Miss Hauser, Mr. Turner
NOES: Mr. Maresco
ABSTAINED: Mr. Carvin
ABSENT: Mr. Menter
MR. TURNER-Four to one, and one abstention. It doesn't fly. We've
only got four positive votes.
MR. MULLER-Why did you abstain?
MR. CARVIN-I'm not totally convinced one way or the other. That's
the basic reason for my abstention.
MR. MULLER-You're not abstaining for a conflict?
MR. CARVIN-No.
MR. TURNER-It's denied.
MR. MULLER-I guess my only alternative is table the other one and
I'll go back to the County and show them that colored piece of
paper and say that is the sign.
MR . CAR V I N - Yes , I t h ink t hat you' r e un de r a h a r d s hip from the
County, not this Board.
MR. TURNER-Yes. That's where the hardships arise, right there.
MR. MULLER-Was it on this application that they denied?
MS. CIPPERLY-I can show you.
got denied.
I don't know which one of these two
MR. TURNER-I think both of them.
MS. CIPPERLY-I can show you on a resolution that we got back this
week from them, on a different sign, that they said it was their
policy to deny Sign Variances, which.
MR. MARTIN-What's the Use Variance resolution say, Linda?
MR. TURNER-They denied the Sign Variance.
MS. CIPPERLY-And they recommended to disapprove the Use Variance.
They said, "the Board did not have a description of what the sign
- 22 --
will say or what it is going to look like. Also, there is no
justification as to why this sign is needed."
MR. TURNER-I think you better go back.
MR. MULLER-Okay. A new application?
MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, because the County doesn't have to rehear it
unless it's a new application.
MR. MULLER-Okay. Please table the other one.
MR. TURNER-Okay. They denied both of them. Do you want to proceed
in that fashion? Do you want to table your application, as Mr.
Muller has suggested?
MR. SPAHN-I would like to know.
MR. TURNER-It's a seven member Board. We have one member that's
not here.
MR. SPAHN-So is that considered abstained?
MR. CARVIN-I abstained.
MS. CIPPERLY-The other one is considered a no vote.
MR. MARESCO-I said no.
MR. SPAHN-May I ask you why?
MR. MARESCO-Sure. believe that there's enough advertisement
there, and I don't see any need for a sign. I don't think you
could miss your place. If you tried to miss it, you couldn't.
That's just my opinion.
MR. TURNER-Lets not belabor that.
about it right now.
think we've talked enough
MS. CIPPERLY-If you would also like the County to reconsider the
Ar ea Var i ance, then, I don I t know how you wan t to hand 1 e tha t.
They don't have to rehear anything unless it has a new file number,
a new application number.
MR. MULLER-Okay. How about, I, obviously, have some new facts
which will certainly (lost word).
MR. MARTIN-And I think it was, it was explained to me, it was just
a glitch in their understanding of how the application was
presented, believe it or not.
MR. MULLER-Okay.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
I'll make a motion to table the Sign Variance.
MOTION TO TABLE SIGN VARIANCE NO. 3-1994 SONNY SPAHN, Introduced
by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Chris
Thomas:
At the request of the applicant.
Duly adopted this 18th day of May, 1994, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser,
Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. Menter
- 23 -
MR. MULLER-Thank you very much.
USE VARIANCE NO. 106-1993 TYPE: UNLISTED WR--IA JOHN C. &
CHRISTINE BERGERON OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE NACY ROAD, GLEN LAKE
APPLICANT PROPOSES TO REACTIVATE A PRE-EXISTING INACTIVE RESTAURANT
BUILDING AS A RESTAURANT. PROPERTY IS CURRENTLY ZONED WATERFRONT
RESIDENTIAL, WHERE RESTAURANT IS NOT AN ALLOWED USE. APPLICANT IS
SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-16D, USES PERMITTED IN WATERFRONT
RESIDENTIAL ZONES. (BEAUTIFICATION COMMITTEE) 4/11/94 (WARREN
COUNTY PLANNING) 12/8/93 TAX MAP NO. 44-1-12, 5.1 LOT SIZE: 200
FT. BY 85 FT. SECTION 179-16D
MR. TURNER-And there is a letter in the file requesting a tabling
of that application. We'll read it into the record and vote on it.
MR. MARTIN-Does the Board, at this time, want to reconsider just a
mere tabling, or do you want to require a new application?
MR. TURNER-I'm going to let her read the letter, and then we'll see
what they want to do.
MR. MARTIN-All right.
MISS HAUSER-Okay. This is directed to the Zoning Board of Appeals,
Attention: Jim Martin and Sue Cipperly, Regarding the application
of John C. and Christine Bergeron, "Dear Jim and Sue: On May 16th,
1994 this office was advised as to the Adjourned Date for the above
Application to be heard by the Zoning Board of Appeals.
Unfortunately, the undersigned will not be available to appear
(Daughter graduating from Columbia University Graduate School on
this date). In addition, the General Counsel to the Applicant (J.
Robert LaPann, Esq.) advises that the Bergerons have experienced
difficulty with the presentment of the Final Contract of Sale and
Purchaser for the subject premises. We are therefore requesting
that the matter be adjourned to the June 1994 Calendar. In the
alternative, we would consider withdrawing the application to avoid
further inconveniences to the Zoning Board of Appeals. We would
appreciate the matter being adjourned to the next date in June
subject to your office advising as to the appropriate procedure for
a Withdrawal of the Application. Applicant and General Counsel
will not appear on this date based upon the content of this
correspondence. Thank you for your consideration in this regard.
Very truly yours, Kenneally & Tarantino Dennis J. Tarantino Signed
in Absence"
MR. TURNER-What do you want to do with the application?
having a problem with the Final Contract.
They' r e
MR. CARVIN-I just have a question. How many new members have we
had since the first public hearing, which was, what, a couple of
months ago? I don't have a problem either way, whether we table it
or just move forward.
MR. MARTIN-I think, from a public standpoint, I'd prefer to have a
withdrawal and a new application, so we can renotify the
application.
MR. TURNER-It's been a long time.
MR. MARTIN-It's been such a long time.
MR. CARVIN-Well, that's why I was wondering,
members from the original public hearing, and
from a clean slate.
if we had had new
just come right in
MR. MARTIN-Right.
MR. CARVIN-But I really wouldn't like to lose all that testimony,
because I think that that's some very determined testimony, from
the previous application, and I would hate to see that lost. Do
- 24 -
you know what I'm saying?
opposition.
Because there was a lot of publ ic
MR. MARTIN-You know what you could do,
application open, but just close the
reschedule a new public hearing. Then
best of both worlds.
Ted, is keep the existing
public hearing, and then
you're sort of getting the
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-Ted can close it, and then you can make a decision to
re-open it, at whatever meeting you set it for, and then we'll re-
advertise.
MR. TURNER-If he comes in June, then we'll open it up again.
MR. CARVIN-Yes. I wouldn't want to lose the previous testimony,
but on the other hand, I think we should rehear it, because I think
we do have, I know Tony's new. I don't know if Dave was here or
not, but he was fairly new at that point.
MR. MARTIN-And if Tony wants any information on the application,
you're more than welcome to make any copies out of the file,
minutes, anything.
MR. TURNER-Get the minutes and read them, Tony.
MR. MARESCO-Okay.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
So we left the public hearing open.
MR. MARTIN-And also to advise the Board, if you got a copy of illY
memo, I'm going to pursue the court action to the best I can on
enforcement of the resolution from '76 calling for the replanting
of the area. That's a separate matter, but that's going to be
pursued. So, I'll set a court summons, if need be.
MR. TURNER-Okay, and I'll close the public hearing on Use Variance
No. 106-1993, John C. and Christine Bergeron.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. TURNER-And it will be advertised again, and the people will be
notified, correct?
MR. MARTIN-So then you're saying you want to set a second public
hearing, so to speak, on it, for that June, what night did they
site?
MR. TURNER-19th.
MR. MART IN-Because that is,
that's Wednesday. Yes, okay.
16th.
in fact, the meeting night. Yes,
Then we'll re-advertise it for June
MR. TURNER-Or whenever we can get it on the agenda.
be the month. Okay.
In June will
MR . MARTI N - I t hi n k you s h 0 u 1 d h a v e a mo t ion, the n , tot a b 1 e , i f
that's your.
MR. TURNER-Okay.
MOTION TO TABLE USE VARIANCE NO. 106-1993 JOHN C. &: CHRISTINE
BERGERON, Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption,
seconded by Linda Hauser:
Duly adopted this 18th day of May, 1994, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas,
- 25 -
Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. Menter
USE VARIANCE NO. 49-1993, HOWARD CARR - TACO BELL, CORP. HAS
REQUESTED AN EXTENSION OF THE APPROVAL THAT WAS GRANTED ON JUNE
23RD, 1993 WHICH WOULD EXPIRE ON JUNE 23, 1994.
MR. TURNER-We have a letter. He's not here tonight, and asked that
to be tabled until this coming week, this next meeting. So I would
move to table that Use Variance.
MOTION TO TABLE EXTENSION OF USE VARIANCE NO. 49-1993 HOWARD CARR
-- TACO BELL CORP., Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its
adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin:
As requested by Mr. Carr, and we will put it on the agenda for next
week.
Duly adopted this 18th day of May, 1994, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Maresco,
Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. Menter
QUEENSBURY RETAIL LIMITED PARTNERSHIP REQUESTS THAT THE BOARD
REHEAR THEIR APPLICATION FOR A SIGN VARIANCE IN REGARD TO SIGNAGE
AT THE SUPER K-MART SITE. A PREVIOUS APPLICATION (#8-1994) WAS
DEN I ED AND A NEW PROPOSAL HAS BEEN SUBM I TTED. THE BOARD MUS T
DETERMINE WHETHER THE CHANGES ARE SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH TO WARRANT A
REHEARING. IF GRANTED, THE APPLICATION WOULD BE REVIEWED AT THE
JUNE 1994 ZBA MEETING.
BOB GOVER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
MR. TURNER-Are you the representative?
MR. GOVER-Yes.
MR. TURNER-We have a letter here.
MISS HAUSER-Okay. This letter is dated May 6th, 1994. It's
directed to Jim Martin. It says, "Dear Jim: I understand that the
Town of Queensbury Zoning Board of Appeals will meet on Wednesday
May 18th at 7:30 p.m. At this meeting, the Board will discuss the
merits of our second variance submittal and decide whether or not
it merits a second hearing. Unfortunately, I will not be able to
attend this meeting personally. However, I have asked Bob Gover to
attend as my representative and relay the discussion topics back to
me. If any questions should arise that may swing the outcome of a
second variance hearing, I request that the issue be tabled to the
next week's meeting. I will be able to attend the ZBA meeting to
be held on Wednesday, May 25, 1994. I would like the Board to
consider the following facts when discussing the merits of a second
hearing. 1. Original variance request to remove the concrete
dividers in the parking lot has been dropped as a variance request.
2. The previous variance request for a 45 ft. high pylon has been
reduced to 35 ft. 3. The original building signage variance
request has been reduced both in number of signs and total square
footage. I truly hope that the Queensbury ZBA will take these
is sues into accoun t and unanimous I y appr ove a second var i ance
hearing in regard to this issue. Should you have any question in
regard to this matter or my thoughts, please do not hesitate to
contact me. Very truly yours, ZAREMBA GROUP INCORPORATED Timothy
M. Morgan Development Coordinator"
- 26 -
MR. TURNER-Do you have any comments to make?
MR. MARTIN-I have one comment, and I'm going to write this to Mr.
Morgan. This is yet another time that he has referred to those
dividers as "concrete" dividers. They are not concrete dividers.
They are planted, landscaped dividers, and I don't want even the
least misinterpretation about this, or the least little foot in the
door that says these are not planted dividers. They are clearly
planted dividers, and I want that said to him succinctly and
specifically, and he'll get another letter to that effect, if you
would relay that to him. I don't want this to get off on the wrong
foot. Those are sodded, planted, di v iders. I t says so right on
the plan.
MR. GOVER-Do you have any specification as to how many plants, what
type of plants?
MR. MARTIN-No. It just said, sodded dividers, and I don't want to
see concrete out there on a site visit.
MR. TURNER-Yes. Any comment in reference to this letter?
MR . GO V E R - No. I'm mer e 1 y her e to 1 i s ten tow hat the Boa r d's
comments are and relay those to Mr. Morgan.
MR. TURNER-Okay. All right. Discussion.
significant change here to rehear it?
Do you think there's a
MR. MARESCO-I wasn't here on the original.
MR. TURNER-Okay. You can abstain.
MR. MARESCO-I'll abstain.
MR. KARPELES-Isn't this the one where we gave
opportunity, at the time, to compromise, and he refused.
all or nothing at all.
him every
He wanted
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Absolutely.
MR. TURNER-He said, his very words were,
relief, and we want the Board to act on our
th i s is
request.
our
minimum
MR. CARVIN-Yes. In fact, we quite literally bent over backwards to
have them come to some agreement.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
no.
I asked him if he wanted to mitigate it. He said
MR. CARVIN-He was definite.
that we can accept.
He said, no, this is the only plan
MS. CIPPERLY-Apparently, in having a conversation with Mr. Morgan,
they went back to K-Mart and asked K-Mart to give some priority to
which signs they felt were the most important, and to establish, at
least, a starting point, and it sounded like, at this point, that
they would be willing to discuss the matter.
MR. KARPELES-I think they had their chance and they blew it. They
should have done their homework before.
MR. CARVIN-My question is, I mean, is this something that we'd look
at, and then he comes in and says, no, this is all we can move and
the r e 's no I at i t u de, 0 r ish ego i n g to be emp 0 we red to ma k e
changes, when we look at this, that we want to move it down another
10 feet, or is this going to be a deal where he says, no, vote it
down and I'll come back in six months?
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MR. MARTIN-My advice, if that's the particular view, and I think if
Paul were here, he'd te 11 you the same thing, thi s Board is not
bound, on the night of a review of an application, to negotiate or
arrive at a plan that's acceptable.
MR. TURNER-We're not going to sit here and design the sign project.
MR. MARTIN-You're technically responsible to deal with what's
before you as the application. There's nothing incumbent upon you
to design the application or propose an alternative design that
might be in keeping in your mind, or acceptable in your mind. I'd
just point that out to you.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. GOVER-I think, possibly, the first time around, K-Mart gave
specific parameters to the developer, in this case, Zaremba, and
(lost word) done other projects for K-Mart across the Country, and
they have rigid parameters for their signage, and I think the
meeting that you related to, when he said that those parameters
were pretty much, that's the way it was, that's the understanding
that he had with K-Mart. Of course, when you denied the variance,
then he had to go back to K-Mart, but he was acting on, in good
faith, what he knew in his dealings with K-Mart, that that is what
they wanted, and that's basically what they wanted him to achieve.
MR. TURNER-But again, in defense of our position, all right. K-
Mart knew, when they came here, if they didn't know, they should
have known. They should have researched the Sign Ordinance and
knew what they were up against before they started. They shouldn't
come here, after the fact, and then try to use some muscle to get
us to bend over to give them approval for these signs, because
we're not going to do it. You don't have a basic argument here,
and my argument to him the last time was, you refuse to mitigate
anything. He said, no, this is what we want. This is minimum
reI i e f. It' s not m i n i mum r e 1 i e f by any s tan d a r d , not by 0 u r
standard. It might be some place else, but not here. So I'm
saying to you, I would suggest you take this package back to him
and redesign it so comes closer to minimum relief, not maximum
relief. This is maximum relief.
MR. GOVER-And the parameters for minimum relief are outlined?
MR. TURNER-In the Ordinance.
MR. MART IN-Reall y they' r e out 1 ined in Town Law. The Ord i nance
refers to Town Law on that. That's where they're outlined.
MR. TURNER-Refers to Town Law, yes.
MR. GOVER-And I 'm sure that Tim has a copy of that?
MR. TURNER-Yes. If he doesn't, I'll supply him with that. What's
it say in the Code book, Sue? It references a Section of Town Law,
for variances.
MR . CAR V I N - I act u all y, I g u e s s I see, w hat, t h r e e c h a n g e s ?
dropped Optical, Deli/Bakery, yet they increased Groceries.
now going to be Fresh Food. So they've increased that one by
square feet.
They
It's
nine
MR. MARTIN-267A and 267B of Town Law for the State of New York.
MR. CARVIN-I see a change of 72 square feet. That's it.
MR. TURNER-That's it.
MS. CIPPERLY-And there was also the, instead of asking for 45 feet
with the freestanding sign.
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MR. CARVIN-They dropped to ten foot. What's the maximum?
MR. MARTIN-Fifteen and twenty-five, depending on the setback.
MR. TURNER-So we've got to arrive at a decision whether we're going
to accept this as a new application, or are we going to rehear it.
What do we want to do?
MR . CAR V I N -- I don' t t h ink wee an r e h ear it, Ted. I don' t t h ink
you'll ever get a unanimous vote. I can almost be assure that.
MR. TURNER-I know that.
MR . MART IN - Well, I t hi n k you h a vet h e 0 uti i net her e . P a u 1 g a v e us
two options for proceeding with this if you desire.
MR. KARPELES-Well, what if we don't take either option?
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
way, reconsider
Those are the two options, if you want to, in some
it. If you don't want to at all, you just don't.
MR. KARPELES-We just don't do anything with it.
MR. TURNER-You can consider it as a new application, which it
isn't. You can agree to reopen the public hearing for the original
application, which we're not going to.
MR. MARTIN-I think, the maximum allowed height is 25 feet, In any
case, for a freestanding sign.
MR. TURNER-Yes, any case.
MR . MARTI N - I t h ink w hat s h 0 u 1 d a 1 sob e poi n t e d 0 u the rei s, for
practical purposes, as I recall the dimensions, it was considered
a billboard?
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. MARTIN-It should be pointed out that the dimensions of that
freestanding sign closely resemble those of a billboard, and
billboards are not allowed in any instance. I think, I don't know
if he's aware of that or not. I think even as a matter of State
wide, there's not a community anymore that allows them. So that's
a pro b 1 em rig h t the r e , too, at, 200 and, w hat i sit, 89 s qua r e
feet, 286?
MR. TURNER-Yes, 286.
MR. GOVER-Is that the same law?
MR. MARTIN-Well, no, that's another Section of the Code. He has a
copy of our entire Sign Ordinance, and if he refers to the Section
on Billboards, I mean, that rivals the size of a billboard.
MR. GOVER-But aren't we also talking about something a little out
of the ordinary here, with 108,000 square foot building?
MR. MARTIN-To me, I'm speaking for me now, as a Staff person,
don't see where that dictates the need for the size of a sign. To
me, if you have a problem with visibility or something like that,
then that begins to address the requirements for consideration of
a Sign Variance, but with a store of 168,000 square feet, at this
particular location, it's going to be very visible in and of
itself.
MR. TURNER-Yes, just the size of it alone.
MR . MAR TIN - I me an, t his
shopping point. I mean,
quart of milk.
is clearly going to be a destination
this is not where you stop in and get a
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MR. GOVER-And I think that that's why they want the sign, so you
know that there's an Optical, Garden Shop, and I think that's why
part of the signage.
MR. MARTIN-Well, you asked about the dimensions of the sign, what
would dictate the need for that, and that's what I'm responding to.
MR. GOVER-We have over 29 acres of land a 168,000 square foot
building, and if it were a one acre lot.
MR. MARTIN-And the building's about four acres in size.
that's not going to be missed.
I mean,
MR. GOVER-Right, but you there's a bui Iding there, there's a
shopping center opposite, but what's in the shopping center. Does
the Mall have a permit? The Mall has a large sign.
MR. MARTIN-Not that big. Not nearly that big.
MR. GOVER-How about the one with the Cinema sign? That's not that
large?
MR . MART I N - Well, t hat's an En c 1 0 sed S hop pin g C e n t e r, and it' s
handled differently.
MS. CIPPERLY-But normally, in a different, in some other mall, or,
we call it a business complex now. Each business is entitled to a
sign, and they can also now be on the freestanding sign, but
because this is not considered a business complex, it's just one
business.
MR. TURNER-On one parcel of land.
MR. MARTIN-Now, and I said this. I saw it on the plan. Apparently
Little Ceasars Pizza is supposed to be inside of this store. I
think the argument could be made that that is a separate business,
separate and apart from K-Mart, and as such would be entitled to
its own signage, but that's the only thing I can see here there's
an opportunity for some sort of extra signage.
MR. GOVER-I believe in the letter from Tim Morgan, they asked that
it be tabled until next Thursday. Is that possible?
MR. CARVIN-I'm not sure that's going to change the options, IS it?
MR. KARPELES-No. We've got two options. We either take one or the
other, or none.
MR. TURNER- I think the Board is ready to act on it. You've
requested us to rehear the application, and it's up to us to
determine whether the application is totally different than the one
you presented before, and it's not.
MR. GOVER-They have made an effort to make changes, and if those
changes aren't sufficient, wouldn't we be given the chance to make
the proper changes? Obviously, they're trying.
MR. TURNER-Well, you know, you've made a change of 72 square feet,
out of your total signage. You dropped two signs. That's not
sufficient.
MR. GOVER-That shows that they're trying to work with you.
MR. TURNER-I don't think they are, really and truthfully, I don't
think they are. They're just giving us a little tid bit, and
taking up our time. I think, if they were to come back with a
realistic application that's no so far fetched as this is, then the
Board I think would maybe take a look at it.
MR. GOVER-Let me relay that then.
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MR. CARVIN-I was going to say, I mean, we can turn down the rehear.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-I mean, that's cut and dried. There's no way you're
going to get a unanimous vote on a rehear of the previous
application, and, can we consider this as a new application? I
don't think so, but that doesn't preclude you coming back, and like
Ted says, filing another one later on with some substantial
changes. think that's the thing that has to be emphasized.
MR. MARTIN-Yes. The submission deadline is next Wednesday, if you
want to submit a new application.
MR. GOVER-So we'd have to submit a brand new application prior to
next Wednesday to be on the agenda?
MR. CARVIN-Yes, with,
cosmetic changes.
think, substantial changes, and not just
MR. TURNER-Yes, in June.
MR . MARTI N - To be 0 n in J u n e , tog e t tot h e poi n t w her e you are
tonight. I mean, you still have no commitment from this Board to
rehear that either. You will be at that same stage again. They
will review that application on its merits and see if it's worthy
of consideration.
MR. CARVIN-And I don't want to throw this into Jim's lap, but they
may want to consider talking with Jim to see what substantial
changes might be. I think Jim would have a better feel, before you
put the application in.
MR. MARTIN-To me, I would like to see some clear justification for
the need for this amount of signage and at this magnitude and
scale. I mean, I don't see, at that location, a need for increase
an increase in signage. Even at a twenty-five foot setback, you're
looking at, the Code would require 64 square feet, and we're at 286
on a freestanding sign. That's nearly five times what's allowed.
I mean, we're not talking about a K-Mart store in Siberia here.
MR. GOVER-Normally that's allowed for a business on a one acre lot.
MR. MARTIN-It's allowed for any business.
MR. TURNER-Any business.
MR. MARTIN-Wal-Mart came in with a, they came in with a sign, 99 or
95 square feet, and this Board turned them down for that. That was
only a 30 square foot increase. I mean, this is 220 or 200 and.
MR. GOVER-They're also in a plaza where there's a business in front
of them. It's on a busier street in a much more crowded area.
MR. TURNER-No. I'm going to tell you right now, and he'll get it
in the minutes, but, when K-Mart opens up down there, there won't
be a place to park, and you won't need a sign of that magnitude.
Everybody knows they're coming to Town. This is not a great big
metropolis, although they come from far.
MR. MARTIN-See, I think what might be helpful is to cut out the
middle man here and talk to a K-Mart representative directly.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-Yes.
Jim's lap.
I think that's why I'm trying to put it over into
MR. MARTIN-K-Mart just, I can imagine how they're looking at this.
They're just, this is just another fly spec on their map of 2300
-- 31 -
stores or whatever they own, and they're not sensitive to the
unique situation here. Like Ted says, this is not K-Mart settling
in a suburb of Long Island where they're just going to be another
guy on the block. I mean, this is the biggest single retail store
in this area, from here to Albany.
MR. TURNER-From here to Albany and north of Plattsburg.
MR. GOVER-That may be why they feel there should be a little leeway
in what they feel is necessary to run their business.
MR. TURNER-They're going to advertise with flyers, right?
MR. GOVER-I'm not sure how they operate.
MR. MARTIN-See, and I'm well aware of the standards for.
MR. KARPELES-I'm not quite sure you're hearing what's being said
here. You're arguing the case. You're not supposed to argue the
case.
MR. GOVER--I'm just responding to comments that are being made.
MR. KARPELES-Yes, but you should be taking back what these comments
are, rather than responding. I don't think you're hearing the
comments the way they're coming out. You're too busy responding to
the comments.
MR. MARTIN-See, you should thoroughly review what the standards are
for an Area Variance, and that's the key here, and it's a balance
between the detriment to the neighborhood and the benefit to the
applicant. That's what this Board has to weigh. That's the
primary test, and I'll gladly, if he doesn't already have it, which
I'm sure he does, he's done enough work in New York State to know
the Sections of Town Law that relate to the test for a Use and Area
Variance, and we're looking at an Area Variance in this particular
case.
MR. GOVER-I'm sure he has the information.
MR. MARTIN-If he doesn't, I'll gladly fax it to him, but I'm sure
he does, and that's what the Board has to consider.
MR. CARVIN-And again, I don't want to put words in Planning's mouth
here, but I'm sure they'd be more than willing to work with them to
come to.
MR. MARTIN-Yes. I've worked with Tim through the development of
this whole project, from Ground Zero, on the re-zoning and the Site
Plan that's both been successful. So I don't think the Town can be
viewed as being unreasonable as to how it's looking at this
project, but there are points where things are viewed as excessive,
and it's, I think certainly the consensus of everybody involved in
this Town who's looked at this particular application that this is.
MR. TURNER-I think it's incumbent on the applicant, when he comes
to Town, that he researches all the Ordinances, Signs, Use, Area
Variance, and knows what he's up against before he starts. Don't
get the cart ahead of the horse, and I think that's a typical case
right here. Maybe it isn't. Maybe it's just that they're trying
to impose their will on the community with this sign package. The
Town has spent a lot of time, 1976, the Sign Ordinance came into
effect. They had 10 years to conform. A lot of people had to
conform in '86.
MR. MARTIN-There were a lot of variances, a lot of court cases.
MR. TURNER-You've got to prove that you've got a problem with this
property that you can't identify. You have no proof of it.
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-
MR. MARTIN-It's illY impression that, you know, K-Mart just has this
proto-typical approach to this, that we need this certain comfort
factor of a certain size sign and a certain number of signs that's
our proto-typical approach to things, and that's what, as a working
formula across the board, and I think it's the view here that that
proto-typical approach isn't warranted. There's no justification
for it.
MR. GOVER-I'm not in a position to argue that. My point earlier
was that they're the second largest retailer, and, obviously,
they've got a right to certain things, and apparently think that
sign is one of them, but just let me know your position, and I'll
relay that to Tim.
MR. TURNER-Well, I'll make a motion not to rehear the application.
MOTION NOT TO REHEAR APPLICATION OF OUEENSBURY
PARTNERSHIP, Introduced by Theodore Turner who
adoption, seconded by Fred Carvin:
RETAIL
moved
LIMITED
for its
Duly adopted this 18th day of May, 1994, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Carvin, Miss Hauser, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Karpeles,
Mr. Turner
NOES: NONE
ABSTAINED: Mr. Maresco
ABSENT: Mr. Menter
MR. TURNER-We won't rehear the original application, or the
proposed application.
MR. GOVER-Okay. So we'll have to make a new app 1 i ca t i on by
Wednesday of next week in order to get on the June agenda, right?
MR. MARTIN-Right.
MS. CIPPERLY-In order to be, I think the Board, according to what
Paul Dusek and I discussed, you have to, again.
MR. TURNER-Look at it and see if it's sufficient changes to hear it
again, unanimously.
MS. CIPPERLY-To consider it a new application, it's just a majority
vote.
MR. TURNER-Yes, but this one had to be unanimous.
MS. CIPPERLY-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-And I don't think this is an application.
application, we can vote on it right now.
I fit's an
MS. CIPPERLY-It's not an application.
submitted, but this step had to be done.
An application was
MR. MARTIN-This step had to occur first.
MR. CAR V IN - An d wen e e d a ma j 0 r i t Y v 0 t e . Sot hey can s u bm ita n
application, and then they'd still need a majority vote for us to
hear it.
MR. TURNER-Majority vote to rehear it.
MR. MARTIN-For a new application,
application.
to review it as a new
MR. CARVIN-To review it as a new application.
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MR. TURNER-Right.
MR. MARTIN-With a new public hearing.
MR. TURNER-Yes.
MS. CIPPERLY-I don't know whether you can do that in the same month
or not, with the logistics.
MR. CARVIN-No. That's almost impossible, because we have to have
the application to review it first, to see if we'll even hear it,
and then we have to schedule the public hearing.
MR. MARTIN-You might be able to, I mean, if you were to consider
this at your first meeting next week, I think it's a five day
public notice time for Zoning Board actions.
MR. CARVIN-Well, if they had the application in, we could review
the application to see if we hear it next month, and then you'd
have your full time frame for the public notice, right?
MR. MARTIN-Yes.
MR. CARVIN-So if they can get an application in next week, or even
the first week in June, we could probably hear it the second
meeting in June.
MR. MARTIN-Right. That's what I was saying. You could have the
public hearing on the second meeting in June, depending on what you
decision is on the first meeting.
MS. CIPPERLY-What he's saying is, if they get an application in by
next week, we can do this process again next week.
MR. MARTIN-I see. Yes. If you can get us an application by the
next meeting night, next Wednesday, the Board would look at that,
and see if it's something they'll consider.
MR. CARVIN-We're not passing on the merit of the application, just
whether we'll rehear it.
MR . MAR TIN - Rig h t, and the nth e mer its w 0 u 1 d bed i s c u sse d a t a
meeting in June, and please convey my message on the planted
island. I don't want to have this constant referral to a concrete
island.
MR. CARVIN-I think you should convey, at least illY message, that it
has to be substantial changes.
MR. KARPELES-And it's also been suggested that you talk to Jim.
MR. CARVIN-To Jim.
MR. GOVER--Well, what's going to happen is I'm going to call Tim
Morgan, tell Tim Morgan to call Jim.
MR. MARTIN-And believe me, he will do that.
MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you.
On motion meeting was adjourned.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED,
Theodore Turner, Chairman
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