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1994-08-17 r- ( ',,-- ~RIGINAL QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 17TH. 1994 INDEX Area Variance No. 39-1994 Robert & Joan Mahar 1 . Sign Variance No. 40-1994 Wi I I iam & Rose Minarchi Brown's Motel 13. Use Variance No. 41-1994 Ned & Joyce Crisl ip 22. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIAllY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS Will APPEAR ON THE FOllOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND Will STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. - ~ ~ QUEENSBURY ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS FIRST REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 17TH. 1994 7:3B P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER. CHAIRMAN CHRIS THOMAS. SECRETARY ROBERT KARPELES FRED CARVIN ANTHONY MARESCO DAVID MENTER PLANNER-SUSAN'CIPPERLY STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI NEW BUSINESS: AREA VARIANCE NO. 39-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED LC-1BA ROBERT & JOAN MAHAR OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE FULLER ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO SUBDIVIDE A THIRTY-FOUR AND SIXTEEN HUNDREDTHS (34.16) ACRE PARCEL INTO TWO (2) LOTS. SECTION 179-13 REQUIRES LOT SIZE OF TEN (1B) ACRES. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING A SEVEN AND SEVEN-TENTHS (7.7) ACRE LOT. DIVIDED FROM THE REMAINING ACREAGE BY CLENDON BROOK ROAD. (ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY) (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 8/1B/94 LOT SIZE: 34.16 ACRES SECTION 179-13 ROBERT & JOAN MAHAR. PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff. Area Variance No. 39-1994. Robert and Joan Mahar. Meeting Date: August 17. 1994 "APPLICANT: Robert and Joan Mahar PROJECT LOCATION: Fuller Road CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 179-13C requires ten (10) acres per lot in the Land Conservation-10A zone. Applicant seeks to create a 7-acre lot. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST. AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: The seven (7) acres involved I ies across the road from the remaining twenty-seven (27) acres. making it of limited use to the appl icants. They wish to sell it as a bui Iding lot. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: It may be possible to uti I ize a strip of the larger parcel to create the additional three (3) acres. but it would be an unusable strip of land across the road. IS THIS RELI EF SUBSTANT IAL?: Given the circumstances. it does not seem substantial. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: It does not appear that there would be adverse effects created by the creation of this lot. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: The location of Clendon Brook Road is the major factor in this lot size request -- someth i ng the app I i cants had no contro lover. PARCEL HISTORY: The entire parcel was owned by Mr. Mahar commencing in 1959. and by both appl icants as of January. 1992. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: There is an unpaved part of Fuller Road running through the seven (7) acre parcel. Paul Naylor. the Town of Queensbury Highway Superintendent. has recommended that this piece of road be abandoned and has referred the issue to the Town Attorney. Whether abandonment occurs or not. there appears to be adequate room to site a house. A letter from the Adirondack Park Agency was secured by the appl icant. in which it was stated that this two (2) lot subdivision is not jurisdictional by the Adirondack Park Agency. SEQR: Unlisted. Short Form EAF must be reviewed." MR. TURNER-Do you want to read that letter into the fi Ie. so everybody out there knows what they're talking about. what the APA is talking about. MR. THOMAS-A letter 7. 1994. Robert from the Adirondack Park Agency. dated July and Joan Mahar. regarding Jurisdictional - 1 - ~ Determination J94-3Ø5 "We received your Jurisdictional Inquiry Form on May 12. 1994. requesting a jurisdictional determination from the Agency. We apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry. which is due to the large number of such requests currently being processed. The facts. as presented by you are recited below. If the project changes. or if the facts differ from those recited. an Agency permit could be required for your proposal. Please also note that this determination is based solely upon the presently existing laws. regulations and Park plan map administered by the Agency; if the laws. regulations or map are amended prior to substantial commencement of the proposed project. this determination may change accordingly. 1. The property is a 34 +/- acre nonshorel Ine parcel located in the Town of Queensbury. County of Warren. on both sides of Clendon Brook Road and both sides of the Fuller Road. (aka Peggy Ann Road). Tax Map Designation 123-1-19. 2. The property is owned by you both. as described in a deed recorded January 3. 1992. in Liber 842 of the Deeds. page 315. in the Warren County Clerk's Office. although you indicated that Mr. Mahar individually owned the subject property since 1959. 3. According to information you submitted. the subject property was not part of a larger parcel as of May 22. 1973. the enactment date of the Adirondack Park Land Use and Development Plan. nor did Mr. Mahar. the owner at that time own any adjoining property on that date. The subject property is improved by a single fami Iy dwel I ing and garage. both of which were constructed prior to 1973. The dwell ing is located on the 27 +/- acre portion of the property westerly of Clendon Brook Road. a publ ic road. You now propose to convey a vacant 7 +/- acre portion of the subject parcel easterly of Clendon Brook Road in its entirety. The 7 +/- acre parcel would be located on both sides of Fuller Road. also a publ ic (town) road. No further subdivision. land use or development is proposed. although we assume for purposes of this determination that a single family dwell ing wi II be bui It on the 7 +/- acre parcel to be conveyed. Based upon the above facts. I can state the following: (a) The property is located in a Rura I Use I and use area on the Adirondack Park Land Use and Development Plan Map. (b) Agency staff has determined by the examination of Official Wetlands Maps for Warren County that there are no wetlands subject to Agency jurisdiction on the property. (c) The property is not located in a statutory 'critical environmental area'. (d) The property is not located in a designated river area pursuant to the New York State Wi Id. Scenic and Recreation Rivers System Act. (e) The Town of Queensbury administers an Agency approved local land use program. which means that the Town has authority over Class B regional projects as well as local. non-regional projects. and adm i n i sters shore line restr i ct ions. The I oca I deve I opment administrator or zoning officer should be contacted in order to determine project requirements. and standards to be followed. The Adirondack Park Agency retains its authority over Class A regional projects. wetland projects and rivers projects. incorporates the local regulations and consults with the planning board in its review of these projects. Determination The two- lot subdivision project whereby your entire ownership on one side of a publ ic road would be conveyed as described above. does not require a permit from the Adirondack Park Agency provided the facts are as stated above. Further. a single fami Iy dwel I ing may be constructed on the vacant 7 +/- acre parcel to be conveyed without an Agency permit again provided the facts are as stated above and the project compl ies with the conditions specified below. This determination only appl ies to the project proposed. Any other design of a project may generate the need for more information and a different determination. Conditions 1. Any new on-site sewage disposal system shal I not be located closer than 1ØØ feet from any body of water. including intermittent or seasonal stream or wetland. Sewage disposal system setbacks are measured horizontally along the shortest I ine between any point of the seepage pit. drainage field or other leaching faci I ity and the mean high-water mark (the average annual high-water level. in essence. the ~ water mark). Any new on-site sewage disposal - 2 - "--- -.../ system should comply with the standards promulgated by the New York State Department of Health: a) shal I not be located on slope in excess of 15%¡ b) shall. not be closer than 1ØØ feet from the source of any water supply system. 2. No structure shal I exceed 4Ø feet in height, exc~pt residential radio and TV antennas. Please be aware that height is measured from the highest point of a structure to the lower of either natural or finished grade. Finally, your proposal may require permits or approvals from other governmental entities. It is therefore recommended that you check with the authorities of the Town of Queensbury and with other Stat~ agencies, particularly the Departments of Environmental Conservation and Health, to obtain al I necessary approvals prior to commencing your project. If you have any questions,-please do not hesitate to contact the Agency. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. Sincerely, Eleanor H. Duffus Project Administrator" MR. TURNER-Mr. Mahar, do you have anything to add? MR. MAHAR-No. MR. TURNER-Is the subject lot, do you have an option on that, for the sale of it, at this point? MR. MAHAR-Tentatively, not confirmed. MR. TURNER-The fact that the APA wasn't jurisdictional unti I after he owned the property kind of takes him right out of that. MR. MENTER-Yes. I think that, basically, they said, we don't have anything to do with it. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MENTER-It seems as though the APA letter was simply stating that they have no jurisdiction. MR. TURNER-Only if he changes the project from what he stated. AI right. I'll open the publ ic hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED CURTIS ROLAND MR. ROLAND-Curt i s Ro I and. We're interested in property to build on. We're kind of waiting to purchasing the hear the result. MR. TURNER-Okay. Thank you. PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Okay. Any comment from the Board? MR. CARVIN-I know we've had simi lar requests. Is there any way that you can configure 1Ø acres, to bring it into compl iance with ~he Town Ordinance? MR. MAHAR-Not very eas i I y. I f you use that map there, it goes right up steep, where the road separates. Our driveway runs right badk across the Town road, a long side it, aøø foot. it's the only way you can get up that hi I I. It's al I on a steep incl ine. There's only a couple of flat places on the whole area. MR. CARVIN-Well, again, as I have said, we've had a number of other folks come in, and I'm surprised we haven't got a lot of public opposition, because they've been pretty insistent upon the 1Ø acres out there. MR. MAHAR-It's the terrain. haven't seen anybody bui Iding much up there. We're the only ones on the road. - 3 - ~ MR. CARVIN-We had a case. was it earl ier this year1 remember when Kelly Carte was. I can't MR. TURNER-Kelly Carte. last year. late last year. November. MR. MAHAR-You're not talking about the other party on Fuller Road. are you. down at the bottom1 MR. TURNER-Yes. that's what he's talking about. That was a different scenario. He wanted to cut 1.65 acres out of some 32 or 33 acres. MR. MAHAR-It's a little different. rocks and stumps. MR. TURNER-We al I went up there. MR. KARPELES-What are you going to do with the land that your house is on1 Are you going to subdivide that anymore1 Are you going to leave that al I in one piece1 MR. MAHAR-To tell the honest truth. I don't know what I'm going to do. I may sell the whole darn thing. .some day. or hang on to it. That's hard to tell at this point. I've only had it 30 years. MRS. MAHAR-It's harder to bui Id where we are than it below. is down MR. MAHAR-Well. I don't know about whole bunch of new circumstances. in there anyway. It would probably than it would be worth. your APA. if you get into a It would be hard to put roads cost more to put the road in MR. TURNER-Yes. You'd have to spend some money up there to do much of anything. MR. CARVIN-Well. again. I think the only that reason you're asking the rei ief is because the road happened to be there. Now. if the road happened to be three acres north of your position. you wouldn't have a problem. So we're just kind of going by an artificial boundary line. Is that correct1 I mean. that's the only reason that ~ can see that he's seeking the rei ief. Right? MR. TURNER-Yes. property. just because the road does wh~t it does to the MR. CARVIN-Had the road moved three acres west. now he'd be in compl iance. MS. CIPPERLY-I think what he was trying to avoid trying to avoid having a skinny strip on the other road. was he was side of the MR. CARVIN-I'm just saying that the only reason that you're seeking is because the road. which is an artificial boundary line at this point. you're just going to the road. I mean. I'm just saying if the road was. I'm not saying move the road. I'm just saying that if happenstance had moved this road three acres to the west. you'd have your ten acre south lot. or east lot there. MR. MAHAR-(Iost word) if you tried to come up any farther. then you're running right into our driveway. See. our driveway goes right back across the opposite way. The Town road goes up sort of I ike this. and our driveway is back I ike that. MR. CARVIN-Yes. but what ~ saying is we're just putting down boundary I ines. and I don't know if they're. and we're just going by the road at this point. and I just don't know whether a line could be made to pick up that extra three acres that would be in - 4 - "-- _v compliance. whether it can be bui It on or not. I mean. it's not going to change the fact that the house is sti I I going to be down on the lower portion there. MR. MENTER-Well. then you'd be deal ing with a right-of-way or something like that for. MR. CARVIN-Well. don't know that. I mean. sketch here. and. I mean. I don't know if it that it would be in compl iance. I've got just a can be surveyed. MR. MAHAR-That wouldn't change anything there. bottom is wetlands, or. not wet. but it's. The land on the MR. CARVIN-I'm just saying that you coutd run a three acre strip up along side of this. and be in compl ¡ance. as long as that south lot had 10 acres. or I should say. east lot. See. we're just putting down lines on a map. and the only reason that you're ask i ng re lief is that there j u'st happen,s to be a road that goes right there very conveniently. MR. MAHAR-Well. I'm asking relief because I figure that's been there enough years~ and we kind of I ike what we've got. and (lost word) to sel I something where somebody's got to (lost word). MR. CARV I N-I know. but our prob I em is that we're creat i ng a nonconforming lot. and what do we do when the next guy comes in and says. gee whiz. I've got 30 acres. and I just want to lop off five acres because the Town road goes through here. MRS.. MAHAR-The APA wi II let him know (lost word). MR. CARVIN-That's because it's zoned. MR. MAHAR-I don't get the because the APA approved enough room for one house. drift of this whole thing. actually. it and all. Eight acres ought to be MR. TURNER-The only reason they approved it is because they weren't empowered at the time you bought the property. MR. MAHAR-We've got. right around us. if you 10 over (lost word). they've got two. three. five acres. Luzerne is all spl it down behind us over there. two and three. and a lot of eight acres. MR. CARVIN-Okay. but I'm not sure that they were created. they were,created before. if they were preexisting. or if MR. TURNER-There's a lot of new homes on Tuthi II Road. isn't there? They've got to have 1 0 acres. If it's in a 1 0 a c r ez 0 n e . they've got to have 10 acres. Tuth ill five? MR. THOMAS-Here's Tuthi II Road right here. MR. TURNER-Yes. yes they are. Yes. most of them are. Chris is right. Those are all five acre lots. in Land Conservation 10 Acres. MRS. MAHAR-We're the only one out there that's got to have the 10 acres. MR. TURNER-We I I. just to throw you out some information. when they did the Ordinance over. tn '82. Land Conservation 10 Acre was the zone there then. In 'SS.Land Conservation 10 Aore was the zone again. They never changed it. It's never been changed. Never been changed since the APA came into power. MRS. MAHAR-The guys on Tuthi I I had theirs changed. MR. MAHAR-That's who he's talking about. I think. - 5 - MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MAHAR-They're not on 10 acres now. MR. TURNER- know. but I don't know the circumstances. MR. MAHAR-I remember at that time. because there was eight. and they cal led up and they. don't know. they were going down to three or something. and some of the people didn't I ike it. of course. and they went to five now. MR. TURNER-Yes. Does anyone else have a comment? MR. THOMAS- 'd say 7.7 is close enough to 10. for me. MR. MAHAR - I'm surveyed. but be more. not sure of that either. I've got to get it it' I I be right in that neighborhood. It might even MR. MARESCO-Did you say al I that 7.7 was flat. or no? up? It slopes MR. MAHAR-No. There's some that's flat. but it's not as flat. it's not as steep as the rest of it. Most of it is flat. Up above (lost word). They've got two roads running right close together. MR. MARESCO-Pretty near flat acreage. MR. MENTER-Is the Town currently maintaining Fuller Road? MR. KARPELES-It's not maintained very wel I. day. I drove up the other MR. TURNER-Yes. There's a common band on that part of the road. MS. CIPPERLY-The part that goes through his property. Paul Naylor has referred that to the Town Attorney. and he's suggesting that that be abandoned. MR. TURNER-How long ago did he do that? MS. CIPPERLY-Three months. MR. TURNER-Three months ago. MR. MAHAR-That road wasn't taken care of unti I three. four years. Before that. they didn't plow it at all during the winter. and then they started. I was talking to Paul. there. one day. I talked with Mr. White at that time. too. before he died. and I was tell ing them. as far as we're concerned. leave it just the way it was. It's al I right. He said he'd I ike to get a couple of roads up in there incase (lost word). MR. TURNER-Did they plow it last winter? MR. MAHAR-Yes. MR. TURNER-They did. MR. MAHAR-They had a hard time. MR. TURNER- know. Okay. MR. CARVIN-Well. I wonder what the acreage is on this. I mean. here's another example. we've got a spl it lot. Suppose a guy comes in and says. you know what I'm saying? I mean. he could come in and say. gee whiz. the road has divided it there. I just think. The Town Ordinance says that it has to be 10 acres. mean. if you had 10 acres. there wou I d be no prob I em. - 6 - '- '--""" MR. MAHAR-We wouldn't be here. then. MR. CARVIN-That's what I'm saying. and I'm just saying. you could lop off another three acres. whether it's up the side of a cl iff. and nObody. you can't put but one residence on a 10 acre lot anyway. That's the Town Ordinance. So it's not going to be subdivided any further. and my feel ing is. we're supposed to grant minimum rei ¡eft and I think this is an arbitrary rei ief. I n other words. ,just because the road happens to go there. and I'm not arguing that it probably is a very. very logical way to subdivide it. but the problem is that there's a lot right across the way here wh~re there's 8.72 acres on one side of. I guess this is Fuller Road. and there's another. you know. the larger portion's on the other side. and what's to prevent that guy coming in and saying. look. you just did it up here. and I want to sell that 8.72. and there goes the whole i'dea for zoning. Now I don't mean to put a hardship on you. MR. MAHAR-I don't see why we should be tied in there. MR. CARVIN-Wel I. everybody's tied in with the zoning. and we're here to grant rei ief. That's the whole idea. MR. MAHAR-Yes. understand all that. b.ut. I mean. what I'm saying. we're the only ones on that road. to start with. We're the only ones that have been there for over 25 years. MR. CARVIN-I know. but you haven't proven ~o me. anyway. tha~ you couldn't configure a 10 acre lot out of your 27 acres. or 37 acres. MR. MAHAR-We I I.' you look it over. then. taking the extra ground off7 Where would yo~ suggest MR. CARV I N-We II. I don't have a survey map. again. I can't give you the figures. but certainly. and MR. MAHAR-You've got the topographic map right there. MR. CARVIN-Okay. but I'm just saying. it doesn't. the topographic has nothing to do with the us~. beca~se you could draw a line right here. and that may be enough for the three acres. and you'll st i II have your frontage on the town road. You see. I don't know but if it can't be configured where you could be in compl iance with the Town Ordinanoe. MR. MAHAR-I just figure that. there in the beginning was to went up there. that was quite Things have changed a lot since that was the logic of being up have some room. because when we a Ion g t ¡me b ac k. 25 . yea r sag 0 . then. MR. TURNER...,Yes. You're rigbt. MS. CIPPERLY-That doesn't mean that anybody can build a house there. It does mean that they could walk on it. MR. MAHAR-No. no. understand. MR. CARVIN-Because they don't have the 10 acres. come for a variance. and they'd have to go procedure. They'd have to through that MS. CIPPERLY-And can see your point. too. your land on one side of the road. and you somebody walking ~p one side of your yard. about. you've got don't really want MR. CARVIN-Yes. I'm not arguing the road. but the road is just an artificial I i·ne. I mean. i·f the road had been. lets say the road had been just a I ittle bit further to the west. and it just happened to be 10 acres down there. then the road would have been - 7 - '-' - a natural boundary, and you would have been that's all I'm saying is, just make your line of the road. in comp I i ance, and on the other side MR. MAHAR-I just figured the road was a good place to break it. MR. CARVIN-I know, grant a variance, configure 1Ø acres don't know what, how but for me, that's not a good enough excuse to because you can configure, or possibly could out of this lot, but I'm only one vote. So I the rest feel. MR. MAHAR-We I I, I've pa i d taxes on asking for much, it doesn't seem people I ive on over eight acres of people I ive on ground under eight Town green and a I I, not deve I op i ng it for years, and we're not I ike. I don't know how many ground, but I imagine a lot of acres. They want to keep the anything. MR. KARPELES-Yes, even I ess taxes. we're saying. I don't see why you but if you got rid of 1Ø acres, you'd be paying Are you sure that you can't do it? That's al I looked at it, but when I look at this map, I couldn't come up along ,the, where is that? MRS. MAHAR-Off Clendon Brook, off toward our driveway? MR. KARPELES-And come up and create another three acres on that other side of the road, and not bother you any, and sti I I not interfere with your driveway. MRS. MAHAR-I don't see us how that's going to help the green for Queensbury. That would put a strip up the side of our driveway. MR. MAHAR-Well, I don't know. I kind of got out there in the beginning because I I iked it and had the room, and maybe I don't fee I t hat way. I mea n , i f I' ve got to S e I I some t h i n g rig h t up close to the driveway, just to get rid of the piece of property, then (lost word). MR. TURNER-But you've got to sit over here, too, because we face a lot of people that have the same problem you've got, on that same road, and they come back to haunt us. MR. MENTER-We' I I have a guy, in two weeks, whose neighbor is going to try to subdivide into smaller lot that's not zoned, and he won't be happy because he can't maintain what he has. MR. MAHAR-I'm just bringing us. in business pertaining directly to MR. TURNER-I understand, but when we do something I ike that, just I ike he stated to you before, when you've got a piece of land on this side of the road here that's down below your lot, and another one on the other side of the road, what's to prevent that guy from coming in, and arguing the same point that you're arguing, that the road bisects your property? MR. MAHAR-Well, it was originally there, there wasn't all rules and regulations here. these MR. TURNER-I know. I'm not arguing that point, but now the rules are here. Now we've got to deal with them. MR. MARESCO-You certainly make a lot of sense. We understand your .problem, and the stand that you're taking, but unfortunately we have certain standards and rules that we have to abide by. MR. MAHAR-Wel I, either way. don't know. ,I'm not going to I ive or die MR. TURNER-Well, if there's no further comment about it, then a motion's in order, but you're not in a position to make a comment - 8 - '",---, ~ as to the additional acreage to make the 10 acre lot, take it off across the road? MR. MAHAR-The only comment I can make is, I don't know if I want to sell it that way. I mean. what's the s ens e ' 0 f be i n 9 'w a yu p on a mountain, having a lot of ground to start with, if you're going to sti I I be bound right in? Because we've got a lot of ground behind us" that goes right up to the top'of the mountain. MR. TURNER-I know. MR. MARESCO-There's no way you could tie in three of those acres, three acres that pretty much don't mean anything? MR. MAHAR-Like we were saying earlier, (lost word) the ro~din. MR. CARVIN-Yes, but you're not subdividing. You're just adding thr~~ acres to th~ seven to bring it intocompl iance. That's al I I'm saying. MR. MARESCO-Just three anything, and never wi II. acres that are pretty much not There would be no problem. doing MR. TURNER-We I I, how close are you to the road? MR. MAHAR-Well, the driveway, it runs close to it. MR. TURNER-How close are you, down in here, to the road? MR. MAHAR-Where our driveway turns and goes óut, far, just about the same as the other road. not too darn MR. CARVIN-See. Ted, I don't see why, again, H he were to get an accurate survey map, and I'm sure that he could probably run a three acre strip just right up, right up there. MR. TURNER-Yes, edge. just on this edge of it, right on the outside MR. MENTER-The south side. MR. CARVIN-And it has no material what I'm trying to say. effect on the building lot, is MR. TURNER-It has no material effect at al I. MR. CARVIN-The bui Iding lot is sti II going to be down here, and if this is just junk land, well, fine, then you just create an extra three acres and you add it on to there. end of problem. MR. MAHAR-Why is it you're holding us to 10 acres, and everybody else down there is not on 10 acres? They've got eight acres or less, a lot of them. I'm not saying they all are. I know there's 40 acre chunks, too. MR. CARVIN-Because that's what the Town Unfortunately, that's where our hands are tied. is holding. MR. TURNER-Well, you know, I can't answer your question as to the five acre lots in, the Tut hi I I area, but it can be researched and found out why. MR. MAHAR-We had owned before that. lived up there. That a I I went in since we MR. TURNER-Well. obviously, if they're cut up into five acres, they had to probably be owned at the same time as before, when you bought yours. So, now, but the rules changed since '59. MR. MAHAR-'73, wasn't it, APA? - 9 - -.-/ MR. TURNER-We I I. when ~ bought it. You bought it didn't you. according to the letter here. in' 59. MR. MAHAR-Yes. MR. TURNER-So the APA wasn't in jurisdiction unti I '73. MR. MAHAR-'73. MR. TURNER-Yes. So you don't feel comfortable that you want to give up three acres on the other side of the road. on that. it would be on the south I ine7 MR. MAHAR-I'd rather not. too. when it's surveyed. It might come out better than that. You might get eight. eight and a half. MR. TURNER-Yes. You might have more there than you think. MR. MAHAR-I can make sure that at least anyway. it goes over eight MR. CARVIN-Would you want to table this unti I you have it surveyed. and look at a couple of options there7 MR. MAHAR-No. I'd like to get get it over with. it done and know where I stand. MR. MENTER-I think if we're going to vote on it now. we're probably not going to vote for it. We're not going to pass it. So the thing to do might be to table it. You could get a survey done. See how much. exactly. you have across the road. in addition. to see what it is that you could cut out of your side. if that was something you wanted to consider. MR. TURNER-Then you wouldn't have to file the application again. pay another $5Ø. and it would give you time to look at it. MR. MAHAR-I don't know why you people have got to be so hard on somebody that's I ived so long in the Town. went along and paid their taxes. worked. only ask some simple. I ittle variance. and al I of a sudden. we're some kind of outlaw or something. We're trying to get away with something. MR. TURNER-No. anything. We know you're not trying to get away with MR. MAHAR-You people went out there and rode around. You must have seen the situation. The City owns next to us. That's all strictly just trees and stuff. and they own on the bottom. You've got a couple of other properties coming in there. MR. TURNER-Yes. but. you know. the law says if you have an alternative to the problem that you've got. that you have to explore the alternative first. That ~ an option. MR. MENTER-It looks arbitrary from where you are. but it's not. There are certain. specific things that you need to consider. and if certain things are not the case. then you have no options. MS. C I PPERLY-As I reca I I in my property was never. you don't have property. right7 conversation with you. this a survey map of your entire MR. MAHAR-No. I was talking to get ~ straightened out first. surveyed. MS. CIPPERLY-I think one order was if this didn't the expense of getting it to sell it. So. that was a surveyor. and we figured we'd and then we'd get the bottom of the rea~ons for doing it in this turn out right. he may just not go to surveyed if he's not going to be able the thinking there. think. was get - 1Ø - '-' ~ some feedback from the Board one way or the other. and maybe tabl ing it is a good idea. I don't know. MR. TURNER-What do you think? Do you want to table it. to take a better look at it? You can ask to have it tabled. We'll table it for 6Ø days. and after 6Ø days. if that isn't enough time. just submit a letter requesting it be tabled further. MR. MAHAR-If you table it. you people don't vote on it? MR. TURNER-We don't vote on it. MR. MAHAR-In other words. it's just? MR. TURNER-It's in I imbo right now. unti I you provide us with the information. MR. MAHAR-What information is that? MR. TURNER-Wel I. which way you want to go. MR. MAHAR-We I I. know which way I'd I ike to go. MR. TURNER-I know you do. but what we're trying to tel I you is. I don't think the votes are here to support your appl ication. and you don't have the circumstances here to back your appl ication. We're dealing with an unknown figure as to what the actual size of t hat lot is. MR. MAHAR-We I I . can tell you. it'll be about what I said. MS. OIPPERLY-You may be able to take it to a surveyor and they could give you a better idea. based on. maybe. some lots around it. MR. MAHAR-That's where I actually got that from. McOormack & Ooulter. That's from MS. OIPPERLY-The 7.7. MR. MAHAR-They were up there surveying Sevard's property. MS. OIPPERLY-lt may help if you had a more exact figure. came out to be 8.9 acres. and it was closer to. If it MR. OARVIN-You may want to have a surveyor configure chunk. even if It's just a strip up along t~e ene side. be much more tenable than going the route that you want. a 1Ø acre That may MR. MAHAR-You probably saw .where the driveway started. if you were up around there. You're cutting right back and going right straight across to the o~her side of the lot and then coming in the back of_the house. . MR. OARVIN-Yes. but what I'm saying is that there sti I I may be a viable. al I you need to do is just put. whether it's one foot by. MR. MAHAR-It's going to put it right up to the driveway. MR. KARPELES-~ don't think you're hearing what we're there's a possibl.lity. along this property line here. you come up there and st I I I I eave a I I th i s I·and between and the road there. between your driveway and the road. saying. Oouldn't yourself MR. OARVIN-If you come back with an accurate survey map that shows that that's not a feasible situation. well that wi II lend credence to your argument that you need the re I I e1. but if it comes back that there's four acres between your driveway and the boundary line. then you could actually configure the 1Ø acres. and that's why I think it would be wise of you to seek out a - 11 - '---" - survey. MR. MAHAR-So. in other words. as it stands right now. you people aren't going to grant it? MR. KARPELES-That's the way it looks. MR. MENTER-We're not sure that we would be justified in granting it. MR. TURNER-You haven't really enough information to really fact that you've got a lot property. that's on the west a road which is nothing but about maybe abandoning it. suppl ied us. in a sense. with ascertain your position. only the across the road. across from your sid&/of the road. that'sbts&cted by a boundary. Now the Town's talking MR. MAHAR-We just thought that was a clean place to break it. MR. TURNER.-Yes. know. MR. MENTER-Well. I ike Fred said. if the numbers come back. there's no way that three acres could come out of there without being inordinantly close to your existing house, then it's another issue. and that's something that we'd take into consideration. too. MR. MAHAR-But we already know that. MR. MENTER-Wel I. we don't know that. We don't know that. MR. MAHAR-No. but I thought that (lost word). said. just shoot a long strip way up the side just separate the two properties. I ike you people of the mountain. MR. TURNER-Yes. that's all. Then if you can pick that uP. you don't have to come back. If you transfer that piece of property to the other. to the prospective buyer. you don't have to come back here. MR. CARVIN-See. because the prospective buyer. I'm assuming. just wants this section down here. but if they own three acres up there that are dead land. I mean. I don't know if that's going to be a problem or not. MR. TURNER-I'a I ike to see you table it. MR. MAHAR-Yes. I think that would be the best bet. MR. TURNER-Go back and do a I ittle more research on it. and you might not even have to come back here. if you dec i de. A I I right. So. do you want to table your appl ication? MR. MAHAR-Yes. MR. TURNER-You have 60 days on the tabl ing motion. and then after that. you can just write a letter to the Planning Department asking for an extension. We' I I entertain that extension. MR. MAHAR-Okay. MR. TURNER-AI I right. MR. MAHAR-Wel I. thanks a lot. MR. TURNER-Okay. AI I right. MOTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 39-1994 ROBERT & JOAN MAHAR. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by David Menter: - 12 - ~ "- For further information from the appl icant as to the size of the existing lot and the prospect of picking up additional acreage on the lot which is bisected by the road to the west. Duly adopted this 17th day of August. 1994. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Menter. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Maresco. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE SI,GN VARIANCE NO,. 48-1994 TYPE II HC-1A WILLIAM & ROSE MlNARGHI BROWN'S MOTEL OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ROUTE 9, JUST ,NORTH OF SWEET ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES A FREESTANDING SIGN AT ZERO (8) FOOT SETBACK FROM THE FRONT PROPERTY LINE. AND IS SEEKING RELIEF FROM SECTION 148-6 OF THE SIGN ORDINANCE. WHICH REQUIRES THAT A FREESTANDING SIGN BE.AT LEAST FIFTEEN (15) FEET FROM ANY PROPERTY LINE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 8/18/94 TAX MAP NO. 78-2-18 LOT SIZE: 1.81 ACRES SECTION 148-6 WILLIAM MINARCHI. PRESENT STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Sign Variance No. 4Ø-t994. Wi II iam & Rose Minarchi. Meeting Date: August 17. 1994 "APPLICANT: Wi II iam and Rose Minarchi PROJECT LOCATION: Route 9. Brown's Motel PROPOSED ACTION: Sign Variance CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Existing sign conforms with height. s.ize. and setback requirements of Chapter 14Ø. Appl icant proposes to move e,xistingsign to within five (5) feet of the front property line. u,t i I i zing part of an ex i st i ng planter as a base. Sect ion 14Ø-6 requires a setback distance of .fifteen (15) feet from any property I ine. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST. AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: The applicant bel ieves business has declined due to th~ distance his current sign is set back from the road. The original sign stood alongside the road. and the appl icant feels that his business would pick up again with the sign in the original place. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: The appl icant's sign blends in very well with. the surroundings and is poorly i I I urn i na.ted. The app I i cant cou Id draw more attent i on to his sign with a change of color or illuminating his sign ina way. to draw attention to it. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL?: The reI ief being sought is sixty-seven (67) percent of the required setback. The rei ief sought is ten (1Ø) feet. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: There is no apparent adverse effect on the neighborhood or community. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF~CREATED?: The original location of this sign was almost where the appl icant is proposing to. move it to. When the Sign Ordinance was p.assed. the former owner took down the original sign and destroyed it. The app I i cant had a I ready bought the mote I and had to rep I ace the sign with a new one that met the Ordinance's requirements. PARCEL H I STORY: Th i s parce I had an Area Var i ance i.n Nove.mber. 1983. unrelated to signage. The parcel was purchased by the Ap.p I icant in December. 1986. I n September 1993 a map change in~orpQrated Section 7Ø. Block 2. Lot 9 into this parceL. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: Signage along this stretch of Route 9 is genera I I Y set back in accordance wit h the Ord i nance. The appl icant has cited two other reasons why he would I ike the sign moved. On-site traffic flow is a problem and the applicant feels by moving the sign. the situation would be improved. In addition. the current location of the sign and planters would preclude possible future modifications the appl icant is considering for the building. SEQR: Type II. no further action required." MR. T.ItOMJ\S~W~.C'.r.en County PlannLng..Board._ onAl.Lgust 1Øth., ,"At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board. held on the 1Øth day of August 1994. the above appl ication for a Sign Variance for a - 13 - freestanding sign at zero foot setback from the front property I ine was reviewed, and the fol lowing action was taken. Recommendation to: Disapprove Comments: The Warren County Planning Board concurs with the Queensbury Sign Ordinance." Signed by Thomas Haley, Chairperson. MR. TURNER-Any further comment? MR. MINARCHI-The only comment would be, at the Warren County Planning Board, I completely overlooked it myself, when they had talked about a zero foot setback, and that would have been in error. It's actually, where the front of the sign would be hitting would be five foot back from the property 1 ine, which would be actually on the inner part of the existing old pedestal that was there, or planter. So there was an error. I don't know how t hat got by me. 1 never even rea I i zed. I thought t hey had the same information I submitted, but apparently they didn't, because they're talking about zero foot, and that is in error. It would not be zero foot. MS. CIPPERLY-Judging by their decisions in past cases, they usually disapprove. They don't I ike to usurp the jurisdiction of the Town. So I'm not sure that the actual footage would make a difference, and I think the zero setback came from the fact that the planter itself was at the zero setback, but I'm not sure that that difference in footage would have made any difference, because this is a typical response. MR. TURNER-All right. Anything further? MR. KARPELES-Well, I'm having trouble with this map. When you look at the map, it looks I ike the sign is just being moved laterally. It doesn't look I ike it's being moved any closer to Route 9. Is that right or wrong? MR. MINARCHI-From all measurements, we would be front of the sign to the foot, and so when you're illusion of the distances. the measurements, and I did those moving it toward the road. From the back of the sign is almost an eight looking at it, it gives a different MR. CARVIN-In other words, you're going to maintain planter here? it in the MR. MINARCHI-Yes, that',s there, if planter around the sir,. I get inner What I'm going to do is the planter permission, would add an additional post. MR. CARVIN-Could you come up here and maybe show us right on the picture, here? MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, that picture that was included with the notes. MR. MINARCHI-Yes. This one here, she did an excel lent job. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Well, I'm just curious. sign. The planter kind of bends around assuming you're going to be moving your sign and then you're going to be adding on to the This is the this way. all the way end? existing So I'm up here, MR. MINARCHI-No, sir. wanted to add it on to here. MR. CARV IN-That's what I was go i ng to ask, if you were go i ng to come out here to this entrance sign. MR. MINARCHI-No. The post would be right here, on this. This is where the post would be, right here. This post would be right here. Then the new one would be right in here. MR. CARVIN-So you're coming off this entrance sign. - 14 - -../ '-- MR.. MINARCHI-Off of here to here. yes. and then right at this point. if you notice how everybody's going this way. you can see the tire trBcks right now in here. What's happening is that if an individual happens to pull in this way. some guy's making a turn here. and they're going to kiss. just as soon as. w.'ve had peop I e a I ready do that. and act ua I I Y get into an acc i dent. and then after that the pol ice are there. the sher iff . and that ties up the whole mess. I had hoped to. by moving this here. these two posts. one h.ere and one here. and extending this planter. this would then direct traffic more thLs way. instead ,of using it as a turnaround. MS. CiPPERLY-One thing t~at's confusing. this planter right here. that's the existing planter. MR. MINARCHI-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-That's ~Lready into the DOT eight-of-way. Wbat he wants to do is extend this planter. This would be the front post of the sign. the rear post of the sign. and that's what we tried to. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Would the entrance sign be gone. though? MR. MINARCHI-Yes. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Because my feel ing is. when I go by there. that this sign is really out there. It is right on the highway. the entrance sign. MS. CIPPERLY-There's two drawings on this page. two different scales. MR. MARESCO-So not only are you going to move the sign. but you want to extend the planter? MR. CARVIN-Going back. MR. MARESCO-Going back. MR. CARVIN-In other words. apparently. here's your planter. and that'll come back this way. and your signwi II go right here. MR. MINARCHI-See from the pole to t h r.e e f. e e t. 0 k a y . in there. So. in this pole. this telephone pole. the front of that planter's got and then there's another stub of a way. the planter is. protecting the distance to be about a pole right that pole. MR. .CARVIN-This is where the sign would come. The pole would go here. I ike so. and this would come back. This would come. out. but the problem is this sign is real close to the highway. You go by there. MR. MARESCO-I know. I pass by it every day. MR. MI.NARCHI-They're coming in this way. instead of coming up the road and going .around this way and into here. Wet I. this,is the exi t part of it. and so what happens is that when peop I e are coming in here. .and if someone's going around the other way. they're going to meet. and that's another problem I have. I was hoping to try toal.leviate some of those problems by having the sign back where it originally was. This entrance sign. originally. if you notice right over here. was on a bump. All the way in the back was the (lost word). That's where originally was the entrance. MR. CARVIN- didn't have a problem. concern is. but I don't think that has sign. I really don't. because the compl iance with the others down through I understand ,what anything to do with sign. I think. is there. his the in - 15 - '-- MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. CARVIN-And. I mean. I don't know. if you put a picket fence down there or something. in other words. just to block it. as opposed to putting the sign out there. to del ineate it. I'm just saying. or a barrier of some sort. MR. MINARCHI-I know what you're saying about a picket fence. MS. CIPPERLY-What about the idea that Matt mentioned in his notes that. of making the sign. right now it's sort of tan with brown lettering. Have you given thought to making.thesign a little more? MR. MINARCHI-I did. I had two choices. I talked to Tom. who is North Country Signs. and we're looking at a cost of sign of anywhere between $45ØØ to $5. øøø. In mov i ng It. it wou I d be under $1.ØØØ. and since this year my business in July was off by 2Ø percent. Ton i ght I have abso I ute I y no bus i ness at a I I. none. not even one car. MR. TURNER-Yes. but I think that's the trend al lover the County. That's allover. MR. MINARCHI-Not with no business at all. because I'll tell you something. across the street. my competitor. the Sunset. is booked. MR. MENTER-You know why he's booked. L know why he's booked and so do you. You don't want to rent your rooms for that little. MR. MINARCHI-Wel I. talked to Mary. and Mary has. out of 15 rooms. she's got 12. and I talked AI ice of the Greycourt. before I came in here. and Alice isn't hurting too bad. She's got 16 rooms. MR. MARESCO-But do you think the reason is because of the sign? MR. MINARCHI-I don't know. MR. MARESCO- finct that hard to be I i eve that the sign is the reason. MR. MINARCHI-I don't know. When you're in business. you try to grasp at straws or anything to say to yourself. why me. what am I doing wrong? MR. MARESCO-You're not doing anything wrong. specifically. MS. CIPPERLY-Another that .L had as an alternative. also. is. I don't know. you also would be entitled to a wall sign on. for instance. the end of your bui Iding. a 1ØØ square foot wall sign. I don't know if that would make you more. MR. M I NARCH I-There was a s i.gn on t he one bu i I ding t hat says Motel. I took that down. We had just that one sign up. We have no other signs on the property. There's just that one sign. MR. KARPELES-You know. I travel both north and south. and I had no trouble whatsoever seeing that sign. In fact. ooming south. it looks to me I ike you would be hurting yourself if you moved it out to the road. because the road turns there. and the trees would block it. MR. MINARCHI-Yes. it does. but coming up off the looked for it myself. Well. I know where it Is. so I to look for it. but I have people that have been there caught up in the traffic. and when they start to position. you can't look for signs. You have to watch hill. I've don't have before get jockey for the road. MR. CARVIN-Wel I. that may be because the road narrows there. - 16 - J ~ mean. right by Gambles. MR.MLNARCHL-I just thQu.ght that maybe by putting it back where it was for the last aø years. really. MR. CARVIN-If you want my honest opinion. whenL go by there. and I was looking tonight. and with the traffic coming. I think your entr.nce sign is more of a hindrance than. it is anything else. because all of a sudden. I real ized that that sign was so darn clQse to the highway. because I was looking at all of these signs up t h r Q ugh the re. and a I I 0 f a ~ udd e n I a I m 0 s t ran 0 v e r t hat entrance sign. So. I mean. that was n impression of how far out that really is. MR. TURNER-Do your cl ients. when they come to the Motel. do they come ,from the south? MR. MINARCHI-Yes. MR. TURNER-More than they come from the north? MR. ,MINARCHI-They come from the south. MR. TURNER-A I I right. MR. MARESCO-Get off Exit 19 and they just shoot up there. Yes. MR. CARVIN-I don't think there's any curb up through there. is the r e? I t h ink it's a I I pre t tym u c h f I at. MR. MINARCHI-There is a curve. it Restaurant .comi ng up to ,Gambles Bakery. starts at the Chinese MR. CARVIN-No. a "curb". I think that's all flat. there's any curb in there. I don't think MR. MINARCHI-There's a concrete curb at the is. Right in front of the planter there's also there's another concrete curb in front corner. Keith's house. The curb goes right and it goes right along up through Charlie's pole. where the pole a concrete curb. and of the house on the up to Apple Annie's. and Radiator shop. MR. THOMAS-I can see where the curb starts. here. and then goes north. MR. KARPELES-Is there any light on that sign? Is it illuminated? MR. MINAR CHI-It's (lost word) lights. At night time. well I it up. Really. there's no problem in (lost word) it's very it up. MS. CIPPERLY~Fred. were you saying that the entrance sign was b I 0 c kin g you r vis ion of his s i g n. 0 r was i t jus t d i s t r act i n g ? MR. CARVIN-No. mea n . I t h ¡Ok it's ve r y d i s t r act i n g . MR. MINARCHI-The distracting? entrance sign. then. you're saying is MR. TURNER-Yes. it is. MR. MINAR CHI-I' I I move that back where it was. then. MR. CARVIN-I'm not sure if it's the sign or the planter. I think the who let h i n g . ¡ I mean. you' ve go tau n i que sit u,a t ion the r e . There's no two ways about it. MR. MINARCHI-I know I do. and I wish I could get it resolved one way or the other. MS. CIPPERLY-One thing that is also coming down the road is there - 17 - -- wi II be a I ight there. within the next. well. whenever the Sweet Road intersection and Wal~Mart happen. there wi I I be a traffic I ight there. which may help. because people wi I I stop. MR. TURNER-Is that a positive statement7 traffic light there7 There lA going to be a MS. CIPPERLY-There wi II be a traffic I ight there when the road gets real ig~ed. The studies that the Town has been doing of Route 9/254 intersection. the recommendation is that Sweet Road and Weeks be al igned. and that there be a I ight there. That is. that's the most certain thing to come out of the traffic study. and it's tied up. to some extent. with Wal-Mart. which. just this week. we've been having meeting with Wal-Mart about how many I ights. and who's going to pay for what. and that's really as specific as I can be. That's the most definite of all the things to come out of the traffic study. and I would say that probably the al ignment of Weeks and Sweet wi I I happen whether Wal-Mart or not. It just may be paid for differently. DOT has plans to put a I ight there. MR. MARESCO-That might help the situation a I ittle bit. slow traffic down. MS. CIPPERLY-I would think it would slow the traffic down. MR. TURNER-His point. where the sign is now. the sign is really useless. because in a sense. they're beyond you before they real ize they've gone by you. and their sign should be down at the southern entrance of your property. but 15 feet back. and I think your problem would be solved. MR. CARVIN-I. personally. think if you move that sign up. you're going to be defeating yourself because that sign is too high. MR. MINARCHI-So you're saying if I move the entrance. MR. TURNER-If you move it to the south. that power pole right there. you're going it out where ~ want to move it. that obscure. probably. part of it. and you get it beh i nd to see it. I f you move power pole is going to MR. MARESCO-But you sti I I have to be 15 feet. MR. TURNER-That's what be behind. I'm saying. put it back 15 feet and he'd MR. MINARCHI-If I put it back 15 feet. I'm right at the pool. I've got the measurements. How far am I from the property I ine7 MS. CIPPERLY-It looks I ike from the pool to the property I ine. it look s I i k e 21. MR. TURNER-He's got 1Ø feet there. but that 217 I don't know where he stops or does it stop here7 I wonder if that includes here. Does it stop here. MR. CARVIN-I think the problem is that people go by that because they're concentrating on that traffic funnel i~g into one lane. and you're conscious of traffic and not the surroundings. So I don't think a sign is going to necessari Iy. MR. MINARCHI-See. with the sign right here. people are coming in and overshooting the. I don't know if they see the entrance or not. but then they come in this way. MR. TURNER-Yes. because where your sign is. they go around your sign because they think the entrance is on the other side of it. - 18 - '""""" -.J MR. CARVIN-My guess is If you el iminated the entrance sign and moved that back, you'd· probably increase visibi I ity. MR. MINARCHI-I was going to put that entrance sign back to where it originally was on that deer, with the new side over here. I said, wel I maybe then the flow wi I I go this. way instead of going this way. and sometimes I get people gOing this way. MR. T~RNER-You've got 21 f~et right to the edge of your patio. MR. MINARCHI-Yes. MR. TURNER-A I I right. feet, and you've st ill is. So you could put the sign got 10 feet for your patio. back there 15 So your sign MR.. MINARCHI-You mean put it right here? MR. TURNER-Yes. That's where it belongs. really. How much use does that front patio get? MIL MINARCHI-This. it gets. in the summer, time. MR. TURNER-Does it get a lot of use? MR. CARVIN-You mean put the main sign right there? MR. TUHNER-Put it right there. because that's what's happening. His comment was they're going by it. because the sign is way over here.andyou think the entrance is over here. MR. MINARCHI-So they're overshooting it. MR. TURNER-They're over shooting your Motel. MR. MINARCHI-Some people end up in Apple Annie's. They come into mine thinking I'm part of Apple Annie's. MR. TURNER-Yes. place. That's why. because the. s.ign Ls in the wrong MR. CARVIN-Well. I think this is the thing that's probably throwing them off. too, is the entrance sign. MR. TURNER-Yes, that entrance sign. MR. CARVIN-Because they would naturally. they see the entrance. and you're I.ooking. MR. TURNER-I think if you just take that entrance sign out of there and move that sign back over there. 15 feet back. p~t it up. I think it'l I solve your problem. as far as your sign goes. MR. MINARCHI-But it says 15. Could I do any better than that. instead of haul ing it right to the teeth. MR. TURNER-No. I don't think so. We'd be setting an awful precedent. We've made everybod~ maintain that 15 foot. MR. MINARCHI-Do you want to know something that's interesting? A lot of people move their signs. a lot of them. and they did get the.i r var i ances. MR. TURNER-Some of them did. and a lot of them didn't.al1.da lot of them took us to court. Some of them won. some of them didn't. MR. MINARCHI-But and that was it. just happened to be. Chari ie torched it down. had to I ive with it, but I'm trying to fol low - 19 - your rules as set up by the Sign Ordinance with the 15 foot setback. MR. TUANER-Fifteen foot back I think would be more beneficial to you, because of the power poles. I think you should put it right there, because that'll catch their eye, and then they're going to go in there. That's Brown's Motel. That's not, they're not shooting by you then. Where you've got it now, they go right by you before they real ize they've gone by you. MR. CARVIN-And then put your entrance sign maybe in the same area. MR. TURNER-Yes. same area. You could put the entrance sign right in the MR. CARVIN-Because that would give them time to slow down, and then they probably would see what they're deal ing with. MR. MINARCHI-So how far off of this property I ine do I have to be? MR. MENTER-The side property line? MR. MINARCHI-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-It says 15.feet from the front don't think it says anything, probably set back is. property I ine, but I whatever the regular MR. TURNER-I don't think whatever the setback. it addresses the side line. Yes, MR. MENTER-The regular setback is substantial there, isn't it? MS. CIPPERLY-The side back there is a minimum of 2Ø, but I'm not really certain that that would apply to a sign, because it may not be considered a structure. MR. TURNER-No. It's not a structure. MS. CIPPERLY~One possibi I ity we could back and look at these alternatives. come back, or if he wants to do a doesn't have to come back. do is let Mr. Minarchi go table it ,i f he wants to conforming sign, then he MR. TURNER-Right. MR. MENTER-Yes, that's true, because you're not talking about affecting anything in t~e short term anyway. MR. MINARCHI-It depends upon what they say, how far off of here we have to be, because right now we do have a I ittle green area in here, some trees. MR. MENTER-The side of the pool, right? MR. MINARCHI-Yes. MR. MENTER- don't know how far that is, 1Ø, 15 feet or something. MR. MINARCHI-It's about right, it's close to 21 feet, because that planter I was going to add on to it was another 8 foot, and then the planter that's existing is 9 feet. MR. MENTER-It says right here, setbacks from all property lines shal I be a minimum of 15 feet. MR. TURNER-Yes. - 20 - "---" J MR. MENTER-That's C and M,zones. MR. TURNER-What page are you on. Dave? MR. MENTER-No. That, was looking at specific. MR. TURNER-What Section. 140 and what page? MR. MENTER-Section 14Ø-3K{2>. which K is regarding different types of signs. though. advertising. lease or rental of premises. MS. CIPPERLY-Like a For Sale sign on a piece of property. MR. MENTER-Right. but it did mention side setbacks. MS. CIPPERLY-I think that',s the only place in the Ordinance that mentions a side setback for a sign. MR. THOMAS-L mentions setbacks. too. for projects not illuminated. developer. architect. engineer. contractor on a job. MR. TURNER-That only refers to those signs. project signs. sale. I ease or renta I. MR. MENTER-R¡g~t. That doesn't apply. ¡ i MR. TURNER-Well. at this point. would you I ike to table it and reconsider some options and come back. if you have to come back? MR. MINARCHI-Yes. I would I ike to do that. We could table it. and get some information. MS. CIPPERLY-On the side setback. Administrator. want to ask the Zoning MR. MINARCHI-We can do that. and Martin. I can get in touch with Mr. MR. MENTER-Ted. look at 140-6B. setback number. freestanding signs. setback. freestanding signs shall be a minimum of property line. size. The 15 placement setback feet from and for any MR. TURNER-Yes. that's it. MR. MENTER-It is 15 feet. MR. MINARCHI-So that would be interpreted as being 15 f·eet from the front. side. MR. TURNER-Yes. whatever. MR. MINARCHI-From any property I ine. Okay. MS. CIPPERLY-So. if you can go and see what you can do. MR. MINARCHI-Wel I. I want to see where it wi I I sit. from the 15 foot and how it would sit. draw up another sketch. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. THOMAS-It says something about 64 squa~e foot has to be 25 foot. MR. TURNER-Back from the front property line. and 15 from the sign. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. His sign is. what's the square footage on - 21 - -' yours? Thirty-two. MR. TURNER-Thirty-two. MR. MINARCHI-Right now, it does conform to the 15 foot. MR. TURNER-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-You may end up needing or asking for rei lef from the side setback rather than the front one, or something I ike that. MR. MINARCHI-The rei ief from the side, more feasible. think, would be much MS. CIPPERLY-Wel I, see what you can do. MR. MINARCHI-Let me talk to Tom, talk to .!!!.y boss. MR. TURNER-Okay. So it's your request to table then? MR. MINARCHI-Yes. MR. TURNER-Remember, you.'ve .got 6Ø days, and if you don't do it in 6Ø days, write a letter asking for an ex·tension, and we'll entertain that lat'ter, and if the Board so moves, then we'll extend it. AI I right. MOTION TO TABLE SIGN VARIANCE NO. 48-1994 WILLIAM & ROSE MINARCHI ,&ROWN'S MOTEl., I ntroduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption, seconded by Anthony Maresco: For further information from the appl icant with respect to the location and the repositioning of the sign and the other pertinent alternatives that were brought up by the Board. Duty adopted this 17th day of August, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Menter, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Carvin, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner NOES: NONE MR. MINARCHI-Thank you very much for your input. MS. CIPPERLY-Ted, you need to do something with the publ ic hearing on this. MR. TURNER-I'll leave it open. MS. CIPPERLY-Okay. MR. TURNER- didn't open it anyway, but I'll leave it open, because we didn't get to that point anyway. USE VARIANCE NO. 41-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED SR-1A NED & JOYCE CRISLIP OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE 693 RIDGE ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO INSTALL A SIGN ON AN EXISTING LAMP-POST IN A SUBURBAN RESIDENTIAL ZONE. AND SEEKS RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-19. ALLOWED USES IN THE ZONE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 8/18/94 TAX MAP NO. 55-1-12.4 LOT SIZE: 1.75 ACRES SECTION 179-19 JOYCE CRISLIP, PRESENT MR. TURNER-Mr. Carvin wi I Chair this one. with this appl ication. I have a conflict STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Use Variance No. 41-1994, Ned & Joyce Crist ip, - 22 - t~ -..J Meeting Date: August 17. 1994 "APPLICANT: Ned and Joyce Crisl ip PROJECT LOCATION: 693 Ridge Road SUMMARY OF PROJECT. App I i cant proposes to i nsta I I a commerc i a I sign on an ex i st i ng lamp post in a residential zone. CONFORMANCE WITH USE/AREA REGULATIONS: Section 179-19. Suburban Residential. does not include signs as an al lowed use. REVIEW CRITERIA. BASED ON SECTION 267-b OF TOWN LAW: 1. IS A REASONABLE RETURN POSSIBLE IF THE LAND IS USED AS ZONED? The appl.icant isexperiencingdifficul~y in conducting a bed and breakfast without benefit of a sign. particularly sinoe tnere are now two such businesses in close proximity to each other. The bed .and breaktas~ is .al lowed by variance. 2. IS THE ALLEGED HARDSHIP RELATING TO THIS PROPERTY UNIQUE. OR DOES IT ALSO APPLY TO A SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE DISTRICT OR NEIGHBORHOOD? This hardship could also apply to the other bed and breakfast. but not to the other residential uses in the area. 3. IS THERE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON THE ESSENTIAL CHARACTER OF THE ~EIGHBORHOOD? It does not appear that this particular sign would have an adverse effect on the neighborhood. At 3.5 square feet. it could not be considered visually obtrusive. A residence is normally al lowed a 2 square foot sign with the name of the residents on it. but no advertising message. 4. IS THIS THE MINIMUM VARIANCE NECESSARY TO ADDRESS,THE UNNECESSARY HARDSHIP PROVEN BY THE APPLICANT..AND AT THE S~ME TIME. PROTECT THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE;HEALTH. SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THE COMMUNITY? This does appear to be the minimum variance necessary to accompl ish the appl icant's purpose. PARCEL HISTORY: Variance No. 932 was granted to:. oper¡¡¡.te a ,¡,Bed aq.d.Breakfast .at th i s I ocat ion in AU,gust. 1,984. STAFF COMMENTS, AND CONCERNS: I.t· does not appear that this request wo~ld be more effective than utilizing the mailbox. as is currently done. especially considering.the curvature of the road and the speed of traffic at this point. There are other commercial uses in this area which have signs so this would not be the only one. It is possible that the other bed and breakfast might make a simi lar request if this variance is granted. SEQR. Un I isted. Short Form EAF review is required." MR. THOMAS-From the Warren County Planning Board. "At a meeting of the Warren County Planning Board held on the 1Øth day of August 1994. the above application for a Use Variance to install a sign on an existing lamp post in a Suburban Residential zone to advert i se Bed & Breakfast was rev i ewed. and the fo I low i ng act ion was taken. Recommendation to Approve. Comments: ~oncur with local conditions." Signed by Thomas Haley. Chairperson. and the Short Environmental Assessment Form is. attached. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Mrs. Crisl ip. is there anything that you'd like to add to the app I i cat i on1 MRS. CRISLIP-Nothing that I can think of. MR. CARVIN-Are there any,questions? MR. TURNER-let me just bring you up to speed on this one. When tl::ley fj rst came fQr, is bed & breakfas:t. they were tt:le .f. i rs,t I,bed & þreakfast, in .t.,bat, IIre,a. and the-V haid "to cQme.for ,a\la,[' i ance ~e~a~se the Town ~had.nQ place in any, zone fOr~4 bed & breakfast. ,and " they st.ated t..-he i r "case and .obv Lou.sl·.Y. wegranted.t.hemt hat. but a1; tbat time.",we., didn't allow them to h·ave a sign. and I don't have the m¡nu~es in front of me. MRS. CRISLIP-We've operated 1Ø years withou~ a sign. MR. TURNER-Right. without a sign. and place. but that's the history of it. for a bed & breakfast in the Town of since then. the Town has establ ished it is difficult to see the There was no permitted uses Queensbury at the time. and zones for those. MR. MENTER-Was there discussioflS of signs at the time? - 23 - ..~ MS. CIPPERlY-Not on this appl ication. MR. TURNER-No. on this application. one up the road. here. that Fred can that. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I'll get into if there was any questions by Crisl iP. before we open up the We have the minutes of the read to you. in reference to that. I just wanted to find out any of the Board members of Mrs. publ ic hearing. MR. KARPElES-The sign is only facing in one direction on your ma i I box now. I s that right? MRS. CRISlIP- bel ieve it's just on one side. At one time we had it on both. MS. CIPPERlY-1 think there's also some trees right next mai Ibox. isn't there? It's really difficult to see you're coming from the north to the south. to your it when MR. THOMAS-How far away is the other bed & breakfast from you? MRS. CRISLIP-Not far. It's at the foot of Chestnut Ridge. MR. TURNER-Five hundred feet. MR. THOMAS-Okay. MS. CIPPERlY-lt's the Colonial that's right out. almost on the road. in fact. it's ca I I ed Sanford's Ridge Bed & Breakfast. MR. CARVIN-I don't remember looking at their mai Ibox. I did a year or so ago. The other bed & breakfast. they have a mai Ibox. Is it on top. or is it on the side? I don't remember. MRS. CRISLIP-It's on the top. MS. CIPPERlY-Yes. It is. I checked that out. too. MR. CARVIN-That's what remember. Have you explored the possibi I ity of on top of Y2.!:!..!: ma i I box? but that was a whi Ie back. putt i ng someth i ng like that MRS. CRISLIP-We've had a sign on the the top of it. There's no lights. You're out in the country. side of it forever. not on We have no I ights at night. MR. MARESCO-The other mai Ibox? Is that what from the mai Ibox~ two bed & breakfasts have signs on the we're saying. or they have separate signs MRS. CRISLIP-We've had it directly on the mai Ibox before. and every winter. the snow plows and the snow pi les up enough so that they peel off. the paint comes off. MR. MARESCO-I mean the other bed & breakfasts. signs on? Do they have MR. CARVIN-Yes. let me kind of bring you up to speed on that. When the Rudolphs came in about two years ago. they were requesting a Use Variance w~ich was. after much discussion. granted. As part of the original motion. they were limited. by motion. to just a sign on the mai Ibox. MR. MARESCO-Okay. MR. CARVIN-So that is a stipulation that they have in their motion. So. again. we're deal ing with kind of a unique situation here. beoause bed & breakfasts are not an al lowed use in that particular zone. I think they're only allowed in one zone now anyway. So these are Use Variances. So we're out on some virgin - 24 - I ......"t ',,--, ground here. as far as signage is .concerned. MR. MENTER..,Just to continue with .that a I ittle bit. ,the s.ignage that t.hey are a I lowed at the Sanford's Ridge is a sign on ÌQ.J2. of the i r ma i I box? MR. CARVIN-Limited to the mai Ibox. MRS. CRISLIP-That's because we only had one on our mai Ibox. MR. CARVIN-And the basis was ~ mai Ibox. So now it's back in their court. MR. KARPELES-There's a difference. though. variance. right? Yours is a permanent MRS. CRISLIP-No. It's a grandfathered. MR. CARVIN-Yes. You have a permanent Use Variance. but Rudolphs is a temporary. for two y.ears. I think. MS. CIPPERLY-I think the most recent motion made it a three year renewal. MR. CARVIN-It's either a two or three year. MS. CIPPERLY-And that motion didn't mention the sign. but I don't know whether that ~as assumed. MR. CARVIN-No. We adapted the original motion because there was a question about the hours of th~ swimming pool. and something e I s.e. MS. CIPPERLY-Another factor that separates these two. really. is the physical conditions. as far as the curvature of the road. and the difficulty. when you're coming around that curve. the Crislip's. you'd have not much time to. you know. you're looking for their mai Ibox on the side of the road or. whereas up at the other one it's more 'of a straight piece of road. I think there may be a difference in. MR. KARPELES-But you don't see that lamp very far away either. That lamp is hidden behind a tree. MR. CARVIN-Can you describe? MRS. CRISLIP-The tree is behind the lamp. MR. KARPELES-I know when I was coming south. it seemed to me I had to get awful close before I could see that light. MRS. CRISLIP-I mean. there's a curve both ways. further up the road. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. They're just in a much more difficult spot. MR. CARVIN-Well. can you explain maybe a little bit more fully what your problem has been with 01 ient~le? MRS. CRISLIP-People can't necessarily find the house. I've had peo~le say. wel I we went up and down the røad five times before we saw the mai Ibox. and also. people come to us who are due to go to Rudolphs because that's the only bed & breakfast. They don't read the lamp. Plus the fact that there are no I ights. There's no way that we're go i ng to be ab I e to light our ma i I box across the road. MR. CARVIN-Okay. but it hasn't been I it for at least eight years. Is that correct? - 25 - "-r/ .../ MRS. CR I SL I P- It's never been lit. MR. CARVIN-Yes, and the Rudolphs is not I it either. MRS. CRISLIP-No. MS. CRISLIP-I don't recal I when the Rudolphs started as a bed & breakfast, but it wasn't. MR. CARVIN-It was about three years ago. MS. CIPPERLY-So out of that 1Ø years that they've been in operation, this problem has really been a new, relatively new in the past two or three years, the confusion between the two bed & breakfasts. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Any other questions7 MRS. CRISLIP-I bel ieve there's a picture of the sign that we have in mind. MR. MARESCO-Yes. MR. KARPELES-Yes. We've got a copy of that. MR. CARV I N-We I I , hearing. if there's no questions, I'll open the public PUBLIC HEARING OPENED NO COMMENT PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. CARVIN-I' I I up it up for discussion for the Board. MR. KARPELES-Well, I feel that if you're going to grant a variance so people have a business, you have to give them a way to identify their business, and I certainly don't think that that sign is going to be very obtrusive. In fact, I think it's kind of pretty. I don't know what kind of a precedent we're starting, if it's something that's going to be real objectionable or not. How about in a zone where you are al lowed to have a bed & breakfast7 Are they al lowed signs there? MR. CARVIN-I don't have an answer for that. I if it was an allowable use, then it would fall that, therefore, I would suspect that they whatever the Town criteria is for signage. would assume that under the sign, so would be al lowed MR. MARESCO-I would think so, too. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. It's mainly the fact that it's a residential zone, and signs are not an allowed use in a residential zone. MR. CARVIN-Okay, but the question has been bed & breakfast in an allowable zone, what be7 asked, if we have a would their signage MS. CIPPERLY-They would be al lowed a sign. MR. TURNER-I don't think so. No. It's in an RR-3 zone. It's in a residential zone. They'd have to come for a variance. There's nothing in the Sign Ordinance that says they can have them. MRS. CRISLIP-Out of curiosity, where is this zone? MR. TURNER-RR-3 Acre, and Five Acre zones bed & breakfasts are a I lowed. - 26 - ~ ~ MR. KARPELES-She's asking. where is it. MR. TURNER-Where is Lt? I ' I I te I I you where there's one. There's one right up in Dunham's Bay. which is RR-3 Acre. MS. CIPPERLY- know. use. MR. TURNER-Yes. like. LC-42A a I lows bed & breakfast as a MR. MENTER-Do you intend to havaany I ights on it. other th~n the post light? MRS. CRISLIP-No. just the post. lantern I ight at night. MR. TURNER-Bed & breakfast is in RR-3 Acre and RR-5 Acre. Page 17959. under Type II. Number 15. MR. MARESCO-That sign wi II sit right on top of the mai Ibox. is that what we're saying. or under? MRS. CRISLIP-No. Our mai Ibox has it on the side. MR. MARESCO-Okay. Where wi I I this sign go. then? MRS. CRISLIP-The sign wi II be on.QJLt side of the street. on the existing lantern light that's out in the yard. MR. KARPELES-The mai Ibox is on the other side of the street. MR. MARESCO-Right. MRS. CRISLIP-I think there's a picture of the lantern. MR. MENTER-There's a picture of the lantern here. MR. TURNER-I don't know what they've done downstairs. but I've g01; to tell you. there's one right up the road here. the berry farm. with bed & breakfast right on Lt. a sign. right.by the road. MR. MENTER-Is i~ on Bay? MR. TURNER-Right. yes. it's about 1.ØØØfeet from here. well. a couple of thousand feet maybe. 15ØØfeet. MR. CARVIN-Okay. Now zone. Is that correct. the bed & breakfast is up here. Bayberry? in an a I Iowa b I e MR. TURNER-No. MR. CARVIN-It isn't? MR. TURNER-No. MR. CARVIN-Wel I then that's an enforcement problem. MR. TURNER-I think what the Town did. they put breakfast in the zones. but then they never allowed for it. in the bed & any signage MS. CIPPERLY-Well. if you consider it to be a business. my assumption would be that it would be entitled to whatever a business is entitled to. MR. TURNER-Yes. but I think that's where the identity is wrong. A bed & breakfast is just a night time. small time operation. and it should be. could be a big time operation. MS. CIPPERLY-That's another thing we're working on. is revising the bed & breakfast Ordinance. but for now we have what we have - 27 - ~ here. MR. CARVIN-Well. again. I think we've got two issues. Obviously. we've got the size issue. and then we also have the issue of the fact that we I imited the signage on the bed & breakfast right up the road. So I think that we have to weight those two consideration,s. I know what !lliL feel ing was on the signage for the Rudolphs was that I wanted as little signage as possible. and that's why 1 really felt strongly about the signage being limited to the mai Ibox. If we're allowing usage. I can understand ~ position. Bob. that certainly we have to allow it. but my feel ing is it has to be minimum. and I think we're going to open up a can of worms. I think we're going to have a one-upmanship here. MRS. CRISLIP-I'm sure that they would like a sign. MR. CARVIN-Without a doubt. and I'm sure that when they come back for renewal on their appl ication that that wi II be brought to the fore. especially if ~ get a sign. and I want to be fair to both sides. and that's why I'm asking whether a sign could be establ ished on your mai Ibox that would be visible from both ways. MRS. CRISLIP-Well. it could. sure. but we sti II don't I ights to see us. and most people do come at night. summer time. it stays light longer. but some nights I unti I midnight for people to come. and then they tel I went up and down the road. and couldn't find it. have any In the wait up me they MS. CIPPERlY-As I mentioned in my notes. this is only a foot and a half larger than. so maybe that's a criteria to use. if the neighbor comes in. MR. MENTER-Well. yes. It becomes a problem. though. saying. down the road. because even the size issue problem. when you're comparing one to the other. as you're becomes a MR. CARVIN-And then all of a sudden we want a I ighted sign. in other words. what happens next? MR. MENTER-The size that she has determine. or the size that she has drawn becomes our criteria for size. when Rudolphs approach us. I do. though. bel ieve that a I ighted sign. as Bob is saying. is part and parcel to having any type of business. It can be very sma II and very tastefu I. but I do th ink it needs to be I ighted. particula~ly since you have customers who do come in at night. and I don't think that's feasible across the road. I think that would be worse. even if it was done nicely. across the road. than it would be in your front yard. Aesthetically. I think it would be much nicer to have it in your front yard. MRS. CRISLIP-This is an existing lamp. putting in for the-sign. It isn't anything we're MR. MENTER-Yes. right. with is what you were al I going to mean next of criteria here. but I think the problem we have to deal saying. of trying to figure out what it's time around. trying to establ ish some kind MR. CARVIN-Yes. Now I don't know if the Town is addressing it. but that's the issue that's on the table right now. The Rudolphs are I iving under a. you know. their Use Variance was inhibited by the sign to the mailbox. Now. I don't what your original Use Variance. and if signage was not addressed at that point. then we have a wide open field. here. but I know that that's!lliL feel ing. and I'm not saying that your sign is not obtrusive. It certainly isn't. I think it's in very good taste. and it probably would be very much in keeping on the I ight post. but what do we do with the Rudolphs. and then what do we do when somebody else comes in and says. I want to open up a bed & breakfast and I want a ~ sign out there. or a I ighted sign? - 28 - I -./ "-- MR. KARPELES-We I I. Ordinance. I guess we've got to address that in the MR. MARESCO-Can't we put some kind of stipulation th~t the sign can't be a neon sign. or. it has to be a7 MR. CARVIN-But this way we can do .almost an.ything we want. because there is no Ordinance. MR. MARESCO-Right. MS. CIPPERLY-And then you would have a background of what you did with the Crisl ips. Another thing that occurred to me. when the Rudolphs came in. they probably hadn't been in business long enough for this problem to have risen its ugly head. here. between the two of them. MR. TURNER-They weren't in business. MS. CIPPERLY-They weren't in business yet wh.en that. so maybe nobody really thought about. MR. CARVIN-Signage7 I know L though about signage when the Rudolphs came originally. MS. CIPPERLY-No. I mean. about the two of them getting confused with each other. and that sort of thing. and maybe this is a problem that just didn't exist then. MR. CARVIN-And. again. it's not that I'm against bed & breakfasts. I have a real hard time putting commercial ventures. in general. in residential areas. because this is what it leads to. I mean. now where. do you draw the I ine? A bed & breakfast is a commercial venture. or is it just allowing somebody to come up and stay overoight~ Wel I. then yøu'l I have somebody coming in and saying. well. mine is not really a commercial venture. It's a hobby of some sort. MS. CIPPERLY-I know what you're saying. MR.S. CRISLIP-But there is (lost word) bed &"breakfast. how many ,people you can have. MR. CARVIN-I'm not arguing. I'm just commercial venture in a residential zone. argue the merits. whether it's positive or what it leads to. saying tbat it's a and I'm not going to negative. but this is MS. CIPPERLY-I think there was. expressed Ln those minutes for Rudolph. something about the. in fact. it might have been you that said. at that time. about the. one of the comments tn there anyway was about the "creeping commercial ism". Was that your term? MR. CARVIN-That's my term. MS. CIPPERLY-So. that may be a concern here. The area itself is now. in a stretch of the road there. it's really about 5Ø/5Ø there. MRS. .CRISLIP-It's,on a State road. really. other than the fact we have very commercial road. back and forth al I come down Ridge Road at night. assume that's where they're going. . It's not very residential. large lots. This road is a to the dump. The big semi's going to Shop N' Save. or I MR. CARVIN-Well. any other feel ings. questions? MR. THOMAS-I would say she's got to have some kind of a sign. I mean. the one on the mail.box just isn't cutting it. I don't - 29 - think a three and a half square foot sign. MRS. CRISLIP-We could even make it smaller. if that's a problem. MR. THOMAS-It seems I ike. you give a three and a half square foot. MR. MENTER-I interrupt. but aesthetically. think. frankly. excuse I think that's pretty me. I large for don't that mean to lamppost. MRS. CRISLIP-This is what was designed for us by Ken Wheeler. We didn't set the I imit for him. We just said. what can we have. MR. MARESCO-I feel. too. I think that. if she had a variance to have a bed & breakfast. she should have a sign. What size is that? MR. THOMAS-That's 25 inches. right there. That's probably 26 inches across. right there. 18's about I ike that. MR. CARVIN-Well. I think we've addressed the sign issue in the Rudolphs. So it's there. I mean. and we addressed it to limiting it to the size of the mai Ibox. Now. obviously. we didn't put any stipulation. I suppose they could put a 16 by 18 foot sign out there. I mean. as long as it's attached to the mai Ibox. I suppose that's kind of carrying it to the absurdity. but whatever we decide here this evening. I think. is going to be a precedent setting situation. MR. MENTER-Right. MR. THOMAS-I~'s got to happen some time. MR. MENTER-It absolutely wi I I. MR. THOMAS-You've got to start somewhere. we might as wel I start here. MRS. CRISLIP-Wel I. we have three bed & breakfasts. and there's one up by the lake. MR. TURNER-Is the Town going to do something with the signage on the bed & breakfasts. did you say? MS. CRISLIP-What we are trying to do is better define what a bed & breakfast is. The only way it's really in the Ordinance is. there's a definition in there. and there's a couple of zones that it's been sort of added to. I bel ieve. and so the intent is there to do a more thorough look at bed & bre.akfasts. but. as you can see. their first one came in in '84. and the second one came in just three years ago. and so did the third one. really. So. it's relatively new. and it's something we're going to be addressing. and I'm just kind of taking notes. here. as far as what you fellows think. MRS. CRISLIP-There's one thing I want to say. as far as bed & breakfasts. what I cal I. there are marry bed & breakfasts which are really inns. Ours. al I three of us. these are our homes. and we have spare bedrooms that we rent out. That's the difference. to me. A bed & breakfast should be a private home. rather than a commercial venture. which I would call an inn. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. That's part of the definition. currently. is that such use is secondary to the occupancy of the dwel I ing by a fami Iy. So it is supposed to be a fami Iy house. MR. CARVIN-Yes. I'm going to really probably rol I a hand-grenade out here. Most of our residential zones al low home occupations. Now. if somebody has a home occupation where they are sewing - 3fJ - '-- -...J' monograms on tee-shirts, are putting a sign in their Embroideries"? we going to prevent front lawn, saying, them "X, from Y, Z MS. CI·PPERLY~That's one of the definitions of home occupation is that you cannot have a sign. I thought you were going to say, under home occupation you can rent up to two rooms. MR. CARVIN-Well, or, I'm just saying that it's quite a broad definition. I mean, if we set a sign precedent here, that we may be opening up a wider door, just not limiting it necessarily to just bed & breakfasts. MR. MENTER-A bed & breakfast doesn't fal I under the criteria of a home occupation, does it? MS. CIPPERLY-I would not consider, the home occupation, if you're renting a couple of rooms, you have probably not incorporated, you're not a business. It's just, you're renting som~ rooms, and usually the request we get for that is more in a hardship case, where somebody rea I I Y needs to rent a room for income. That's different from somebody who wants to be in business as a bed & breakfast. MR. CARVIN-Signs in residential areas, it's going to be tough. MR. MENTER-It is scary, because you're going from a mai Ibox sign to a han~ing si~n, could be hung from anything. mean, really to do it, we have to address the size issue. To do it right, you have to address the location issue. MR. the one How KARPELES-We I I, it shou I d present time, there are of them can be handled many rooms do you have? be addressed in an Ordinance, but at so few bed & breakfasts that if each on an individual basis, right now. MRS. CRISLIP-Two, sometimes three. MR. MARESCO-Do you serve food there also? MRS. CRISLIP-Breakfast only. MR. CARVIN-Now do you feel that tbis is a recent phenom.enon, because I know you've been open for eight years with Just a sign on the mai Ibox, and it's just been a problem because of the competition, do you think? MRS. CRISLIP-No. It's always been there, but it's more so now because we have two bed & breakfasts, in. wh i ch peop I e do get mixed up On, and people do miss us. They've been missing us ever since we opened, 1Ø years ago, but we were told we couldn't have a sign, in the beginning, but we could have one on the mailbox. So after 1Ø years we figured it's time to get a sign. MR. CARVIN-Like the Rudolphs. said, that was the precedent that was used for MRS. CRlSLIP~We wished for a sign right from the beginning. MR. CARVIN-Wel I, what's the Board's pleasure? MR. KARPELES-You know how point on the safety part of .Lfeel. it. I think she's got a va lid MR. THQMAS~I think she does, too, because the people are craning the i r nee k s a r 0 u n don tho set woe. u r b s , try i n g t 0 fin dam a i I box with the name on it. That's why it's called dead man's curve. If she had a sign on her side of the road, on a lamppost that didn't have a 2ØØ watt bulb in it, something like that, I don't see where the problem with the sign would be. J would say three - 31 - --- and road a half square feet in there. is a reasonable size for that stretch of MR. MENTER-Well. I guess the thing to do would be to. if most of us felt that way. to word it such that we were out I ining sizes. and the fact that we felt that was a reasonable size for a bed & breakfast. heretofore. and etc.. etc. Right? Make it more of a broadly worded. MS. CIPPERLY-Wel I. that's one way you could do it. The other thing that occurs to me is you could make this apply only t~ this particular bed & breakfast. so then you're not tied. I'm not saying one way or the other. MRS. CRISLIP-Wel I. since there's only three of us. my would be that it really should apply to al I three of us. the here and now. feeling It's in MS. CIPPERLY-And I guess there is one on Bay Road that does have bed & breakfast on it. MR$. CRISLIP-Tha 8erry Farm. MS. CIPPERLY-That I hadn't even. MR. CARVIN-Yes. but I think that's the one that you're referring to. Ted. is it? Yes. I think that's an enforcement problem. So I think that has to be addressed by Jim. MR. MARESCO-Well. I kind of agree with Bob. too. about the sign. but I certainly wouldn't. you two have two theories. not opening the can of worms here. where I think we should put some kind of control on it. too. where. what happens the next time. and the next time. MR. CARVIN-Yes. well. see. my feel ing is that the precedent was set down that thesignage was set for bed & breakfasts. limiting. bas i ca I I y. to ma i I boxes. and. we II. that doesn't mean that a precedent can't be changed. obviously. So. I mean. if that's going to be the new crit,eria. then I think they tll should live by that. I agree. So I guess I wi II entertain a motion. if somebody wants to make one. MOTION TO APPROVE USE VARIANCE NO. 41-1994 NED & JOYCE CRISLIP. Introduced by Robert Karpeles who moved for tts adoption. seconded by Anthony Maresco: To grant a sign as per the drawing that's been submitted. A variance was granted to create the Bed & Breakfast. and it's our feel ing that we have to give this Bed & Breakfast a means of identification. The safety factors should be taken into consideration. People drive down Ridge Road and they miss the Bed & Breakfast and they have to turn around and come the other direction. and this creates a safety hazard. The appl ¡cant has been experiencing difficulty in conducting a Bed & Breakfast without ,t.he benefit of,a ,sign. par-,ticularly sinc~ there are now two such businesses in close proximity to each other. It does not appear that this particular sign would have an adverse impact on the neighborhood. At 3.5 square feet. it could not be considered visually obtrusive. This does appear to be the minimum variance necessary to accompl ish the appl icant's purpose. The Short Environmental Assessment Form has been submitted and there doesn't seem to be any negative comment on that. This sign wi II be granted for this particular appl icant only. Duly adopted this 17th day of August. vote: 1994. by the fol lowing AYES: Mr. Maresco. Mr. Menter. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Thomas - 32 - -../ "- NOES: M~. Carvin ABSTAINED: Mr. Turner MR. TURNER-AI I right. We have a memorandum submitted to me from SueCipperly. Assistant Planner. "As I mentioned on Monday. the P lan.n i ng Board dec ¡ded to change the dead line for the P I ann i ng Board applications to the third Friday of the month at four p.m. This was confirmed in a discussion on August 16. 1994 at their meeting. It would be helpful to have the Zoning Board of Appeals appl ication deadl ine match the Planning Board deadl ioe. This earlier deadline will help us get ads. notes. etc.. done in a timely manner. especially with the added ,activity requir,ed by our Comprehensive Plan work." So. see. they had to submit the last Wednesday of the month. So this wi II give them more time up front to get the ,Information together and get it to the County and get it to the different people that need to be notified and get their notes done in a timely fashion. So. does anybody have a problem with that7 MOTION THAT WE ZONING BOARD OF THE THIRD FRIDAY Turner who moved HAVE THE APPEALS OF THE for its MATCHING RESOLUTION INDICATING THAT THE WILL CHANGE THEIR,DEADLINE FOR FILING TO MONTH AT 4 P.M.. Introduced by Theodore adoption. seconded by Chris Thomas: Duly adopted this 17th day of August. vote: 1 994 . by the f 0 I I. 0 win g AYES: Mr. Maresco. Mr. Menter. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE MR. TURNER-Okay. and we have a note from Mr. Mabb. in reference to his application. MR. THOMAS-Yes. In reference to Use Variance No! 28-1994. a letter received,8/1Ø/94. "Dear Sir: I would I ike to extend my appl ication for 3Ø days. from August 15th. 1994. to September 15th. 1994. Thank you. George Mabb" MR. TURNER-Okay. That was in reference to the trai ler situation on Sherman Avenue. mobile home siting. I spoke to. he came down to m~Lbll$.iness,a,nd,talked to me about it., and I. suggested to him. if he wasn't ready to commit to any decision. that he should ask for an extension. So that's where we are. MS. CIPPERLY-He asked for. until September 15th. Our meetings in September are on the 21st and the 28th. So it might be best to extend it. MR. TURNER~Y~s.extend it to the end of the month. it,to the,3Øth of September. that'll cover him. either ,meet i ng. Okay. If, we extend He can catch MQTION TO EXTEND THE APPLICANT'S REQUEST TO SEPTEMBER THE 3ØTH. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by Fred,Carvin: Du I Y adopted th i s 17th day of Au,gu.st. vot,e: 1994. by the following AYES: Mr. Menter. Mr. Karpeles. M~. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Maresco. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE CORRECTION OF MINUTES May 18th. 1994: NONE - 33 - MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES Theodore Turner who moved for Karpeles: OF MAY 18TH. 1994. I ntroduced by its adoption. seconded by Robert Duly adopted this 17th day of August. vote: 1994. by the fo I low i ng AYES: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Maresco. Mr. Menter. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE May 25th. 1994: Page 29. under Mr. Karpeles. that's what would bother me..1 think I'd rather see it restricted to maybe one fast food restaurant MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF Introduced by Theodore Turner seconded by Fred Carvin: MAY 25TH." 1994 who moved for AS, CORRECTED. its adoption. Duly adopted this 17th day of August. 1994. by the fol lowing vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Maresco. Mr. Menter. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE June 15th. 1994: Page 34. down toward the bottom. Mr. Karpeles. I don't really think it's the minimum variance. They haven't proved to me that.. it's going to cost them any additional money in order to move that over six feet. MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF ~UNE 15TH. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved seconded by Robert Karpeles: 1994 for AS CORRECTED. its adoption. Duly adopted this 17th day of August. vote: 1994. by the following AYES: Mr. Maresco. Mr. Menter. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE ABSTAINED: Mr. Thomas June 22nd. 1994: Page 6. at the top of the page. Mr. Turner. bottom of page 5. top of page 6. on their position. the State Insurance Board. sIb Insurance Department. Page 26. middle of the page. Mr. Turner. any questions for Mr. Muller. okay. all right. A motion is in order then. again. going back to what I said before. I think that when. cross out one of the "then,s. Page 39. top of the page. Mr. Turner. you put white letters on a red. sIb "building". Page 4Ø. middle of the page. Mr. Turner. we're not. but you know that they've got a plan there. sIb for the whole plaza MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF ~UNE 22ND. 1994 Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for seconded by Fred Carvin: AS CORRECTED. its adoption. Duly adopted this 17th day of August. 1994. by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Menter. Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Maresco. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE - 34 - --- J July 20th. 1994: NONE MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF JULY 2BTH. 1994. Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved for its adoption. seconded by Fred Carvin: Duly adopted this 17th day of August. vote: 1994. by the following AYES: Mr. Karpeles. Mr. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Maresco. Mr. Menter. Mr. Turner NOES: NONE July 27th. 1994: NONE MOT' ON TO APP~OV~.THE Theodore Turner ,who Carvin: ,M' NUl:ES QF..J.UL Y..27TH.. ,1994, Introduced by moved for its adopt ion. seconded by Fred Duly ad~pted this 17th day of July. 1994. by the fol lowing vote: AYES: Mr. Carvin. Mr. Thomas. Mr. Menter. Mr. Turner Karpeles. Mr. NOES: NONE ABSTAINED: Mr. Maresco On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED. Theodore Turner. Chairman - 35 -