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1994-10-11 SP (\ '-" ~ ORlulNAL QUEENSBURY ZONING ,BO~RD OF SPECIAL MEETING OCTOBER 11, 1994 INDEX APPEAI,.S Sign Variance No. 53-1994 K-Mart Corporation 1. Sign Variance No. 54-1994 K-Mart Corporation 17. Use Variance No. 47-1994 Faith Bible Church Don Kiper, Pastor 23. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF. SAID MINUTES. "--' --/ QUEENSBURY ZONING SPECIAL MEETING OCTOBER 11, 1994 7:00 P.M. BOARD OF APPEALS MEMBERS PRESENT THEODORE TURNER, CHAIRMAN CHRIS THOMAS, SECRETARY THOMAS FORD ROBERT KARPELES ANTHONY MARESCO MEMBERS ABSENT DAVID MENTER FRED CARVIN PLANNER-SUSAN CIPPERLY STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI NEW BUSINESS: SIGN VARIANCE NO. 53-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED PC-1A K-MART CORPORATION OWNER: QUEENSBURY RETAIL LIMITED PARTNERSHIP DIX AVENUE AT QUAKER ROAD SECTION 140-6B ALLOWS ONE (1) SIGN OF UP TO THREE HUNDRED (300) SQUARE FEET ON THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING, AND ONE (1) SIGN OF UP TO ONE HUNDRED (100) SQUARE FEET ON ONE SIDE FOR THIS CORNER LOT. APPLICANT IS PROPOSING A TOTAL OF SEVEN (7) WALL SIGNS, AND SEEKS RELIEF FROM THIS SECTION. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 10/12/94 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-2.1, 2.2 LOT SIZE: N/A SECTION 140-6B JOHN MINEAUX AND MR. FANDEL, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. THOMAS-A letter, hand delivered, "Dear Mr. Martin: I am enclosing the original applications of K-Mart Corporation for variances with respect to (a) its proposed pylon sign and (b) the number and dimensions of its proposed wall signs at the Super K-Mart in the Town of Queensbury. Also enclosed is a Sign Permit Application on behalf of Lenscrafters, a separate entity from K- Mart, for a complying wall sign. Finally, I am enclosing three (3) checks for the respective application fees and the authorizations as they relate to the various applications. As we previously discussed, although the current landowner previously submitted an application for related signs, this is the first application submitted by K-Mart, with me as its agent. As you will see upon review, this proposal is also markedly diminished from that which was previously made. Accordingly, this application should be deemed "new" and not be construed as seeking a rehearing of any prior application. As you are aware, K-Mart anticipates an early November 1994 opening and, as you understand, we need to finalize the signage as soon as possible to initiate the fabrication, delivery and installation of the signs. Accordingly, I would greatly appreciate scheduling our applications to be heard before the Board at its September 21, 1994 meeting. Please confirm that date with me at your earliest convenience. Very t)"uly yours, ROMER AND FEATHERSTONEHAUGH, P.C. John R. Mineaux" MR. TURNER-Okay. Mr. Mineaux. MR. MINEAUX-Good evening. With me is Mr. Fandel, from K-Mart's construction division. Again, we appreciate your indulgence for this meeting. For sake of clarification and update, an addition to the addendum which Mr. Thomas just read. Because of the change in some of the dimensions, paragraph four, the measurements have changed since that was prepared for you. So I'll just give you this so you can have the correct numbers - 1 - '--' ~ before you. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. MINEAUX-As you may recall, the last time we got together, the application, the total footage, actually diminished. So that the total amount of feet that we're looking for as a variance is less, and the percentage of wall space, as we've set forth in paragraph four, has also declined. So that the signage we're proposing for the front of the store is actually less than four and a half percent of the wall, and for the side, less than one percent of the wall. Also, by way of update, in a letter from our office to Ms. Cipperly on October 3rd, we officially withdrew the Lenscrafters sign application. So that one's no longer pertinent. I also brought with me, again, this evening, at your request, and if any of you would like to look at them again, I've brought with me the pictures from Amsterdam's Super K-Mart, so that you have a visual perspective as to what the signage would look like, if installed, and at your pleasure, I'll bring them up to you, and I think, quite frankly, that we don't have too much to add from the addendum which Mr. Thomas read, and we'd be open to questions which you might have. We believe that the signage as proposed is not illuminated, and standard red sign, which you might find on any K-Mart in any town in America are not obtrusive and were designed solely to send a commercial message to the patrons, and to do so in a tasteful manner. MS. CIPPERLY-You're saying that none of the wall signs are illuminated? Is that what you're saying? MR. MINEAUX-When I referred to that, the red letters, the Super K-Mart. MS. CIPPERLY-Okay, but the others? MR. FANDEL-The other ones are not. MR. MINEAUX-I would remind you that, as you look at those photos, too, they were taken from a setback of approximately 450 feet, and the front lot of the Queensbury Super K-Mart is approximately 1,000 feet. So there is an even greater perspective on that than is in the photos. MR. TURNER-This is how much? MR. MINEAUX-About four hundred and fifty feet from the back of the lot, and our lot here is about one thousand feet. MR. TURNER-From the road? MR. MINEAUX-From the road. MR. TURNER-From Highland Avenue? MS. CIPPERLY-From Quaker Road, building. They were over 900 allowable sign size of 300. which feet, is but the front there's a of the maximum MR. TURNER-Yes, right. MR. FORD-How do the dimensions of these signs compare with those being requested? MR. MINEAUX-I believe these are. MR. FANDEL-They're the same size. MR. MINEAUX-They're two feet nine inches high, I believe. MR. MARESCO-These are higher? - 2 - '-- '--' MR. FANDEL-They're the same. MR. MINEAUX-They're the same. Two feet nine inches, and I think what is different from what we')"e proposing, on the far left, looking at the store Auto Service is going to appear on the side of the Queensbury K-Mart. It will be the only sign on the side over the bays, and there will only be one "24 Hour" sign, and it won't be a sign that says, "Little Caesar". It will be a sign that just says, "Restaur a nt" . MR. KARPELES-Is one of these "24 Hour" signs out? MR. FANDEL-Yes. There's only one "24 Hour" sign. MR. KARPELES-Which one is going to stay? shows both of them. The print we've got MS. CIPPERLY-We had some new prints delivered. MR. KARPELES-Yes. This is the new one. MR. FANDEL-I believe the only place it appears is right under "Super K". MR. KARPELES-Okay. I see. MS. CIPPERLY-This is the newer one. The ones that they're keeping are shown in these scalloped typed outlines. MR. MINEAUX-The center sign, the "Super K", I believe, is 297 feet. MR. TURNER-How did you figure that? MR. MINEAUX-That's what Mr. Martin. MR. TURNER-Nine feet by 50 feet is more than 250. MR. MINEAUX-I'm just going by these calculations of your Staff. MS. CípPERLY-One thing has changed since then. MR. TURNER-I don't know how they do it, but we've never done it the way they're doing it. MS. CIPPERLY-One thing that's changed since our last meeting was you scooted the "24 Hour" sign in there, too. So, it's changed again, actually. At the last meeting, we figured the outline of that sign by going in around, and figuring that square footage. MR. TURNER-That's not the way it's ever been done. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, that's the way we do it. MR. TURNER-I beg to differ with you. That's not the way it's ever been done, and that's not the way it's supposed to be done. You're supposed to outline the total thing, which encompasses all. You don't go picking it apart. We didn't do it with anyone else, and we're not going to do it with K-Mart. MS. CIPPERLY-I'm not saying you did. around like this. I'm saying that we go MR. TURNER-Yes, I know. That's not the way we do it. MR. FORD-So in the photograph, we have "24 Hours", twice, showing, here. MR. FANDEL-Yes. - 3 - '-, -- MR. FORD-They will be eliminated, and yöu're suggesting that one be brought in by the illuminated sign, and that "24 Hours" will also be illuminated? MR. FANDEL-Right. Basically what we tried to do on the full compliment of signs is, on one side, when you walked into it, where it says "Fresh Foods", you walked into a side with food markets. You're in a food market. If you walked into the other side, you were in K-Mart. So we had "24 Hours", and if you put "24 Hours II over just one side, well, the food market's open, but not the K-Mart. So they figured on both sides. To eliminate it, we put it just in the middle "Super K-Mart" Center, "24 Hours". We did leave the "Fresh Foods", though, because you'd walk into the other area. We have a lot of older people, they walk into that area. They didn't want to go to that. They wanted to go to the Pharmacy at the other end of the building. Now, they look up there and go, I've got to go way over there? So we tried to do that. By putting "Fresh Foods" over one side, you knew you were walking into the food market side of it. The K-Mart side was at the other end. If you walk where it says "Garden Shop", you'd walk right into the Garden Shop. MR. FORD-"Little Caesar" is out, and "Food Court" is also out? MR. FANDEL-Yes. Restaurant. It just says "Restaurant" now, Family Island MR. KARPELES-Is this the same size? MR. FANDEL-The same exact size. MR. FORD-Just to reinforce, same identical sized signs? MR. KARPELES-But all the signs are the same size? MR. FANDEL-Yes. MR. KARPELES-When you say, illuminated letters, what are they? Are they neon type? MR. FANDEL-No. They're just back lit. MR. KARPELES-Back lit, and they're glass, translucent? MR. FANDEL-Yes. MR. TURNER-Has anyone else got any more questions? MR. MARESCO-Are all the stores operated by K-Mart, all the stores in there, the Food Court, are they all operated by K-Mart? MR. FANDEL-The only thing that's going to be in that store that's not operated by K-Mart is Albany Savings Bank and Borick's, which is a hair salon. MR. MARESCO-And they're not going to have a sign out? MR. FANDEL-Not that I know of. MR. TURNER-When did that come about? That's the first time I've heard that. MR. FANDEL-Albany Savings Bank? MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. FANDEL-That was just within the last month. MR. TURNER-Who else is coming? - 4 - ~- --../ MR. FANDEL-Borick's has always been there. Borick's is a hair salon, and they've always been in there. MR. KARPELES-So they'll be coming in for a sign variance? MR. FANDEL-No, not Borick's. Bank. I don't know about Albany Savings MR. TURNER-They certainly will come. that. There's no doubt about MR. KARPELES-Where are they going to be? MR. FANDEL-Albany Savings Bank? MR. KARPELES-Both of them. MR. FANDEL-They're right up in the front of the building, as you walk in. The two vestibules in the front of the building, the two vestibules there's a space that's been created up there, behind the check out, there's a service desk. We tried to put it in a central location, and right along there, that's where the Albany Savings Bank is on one side, and Borick's is on the other. MR. KARPELES-Right underneath the "K", is what you're saying, in the Supeì- K? MR. FANDEL-Yes. I would say underneath the "K", and where the Fresh Foods are. MS. CIPPERLY-That's been one of the problems in dealing with this application, is we don't quite know what to call you. Are you one store, and you come under this Section of the Sign law, or are you a business complex, that has several businesses in the same building, because that comes under a different Section of the Sign law. MR. MARESCO-That's what I was getting at. owned and operated by K-Mart Corporation? if Albany Savings Bank. I mean, is everything Obviously, not, now, MR. FANDEL-Albany Savings Bank is not owned and operated by us, and Borick's is not. MR. MARESCO-That's what I was curious about, what Sue had just stated. MS. CIPPERLY-Because if you have. MR. TURNER-Now you're a business complex, because you have three businesses. MR. MARESCO-Is it a business complex, or is it one Corporation? MS. CIPPERLY-And there's Lenscrafters in there, which is. MR. FANDEL-Lenscrafters is not going to be in there. MS. CIPPERLY-Okay. MR. TURNER-When I met with Timmy Morgan that night the other building, I asked him the same question. are coming and saying, well, now we've got three there. It's a business complex. That changes the downstairs in Now you guys businesses in whole thing. MR. MINEAUX-I don't know that, technically, it is a business complex, but I don't think it changes our application. If any of the others, with all due respect to Albany Savings Bank or whoever, we're here in the interest of K-Mart, and they have to come in subsequently, and they want a sign, at your discretion, - 5 - ''"-' -" based on what K-Mart has been able to obtain, that's their problem. I examined your Ordinance, to determine whether K-Mart would qualify as a business complex. I came to the conclusion it would not, and the application is based on that. MR. FANDEL-Borick's, the hair salon, is in 57 other Super K-Marts right now. They do not have a sign in any location on the outside of the building. MR. TURNER-The signs are all interior? i nte1- ior? Any sign would be MR. FANDEL-Yes. They have one over their shop itself. MS. CIPPERLY-The definition of a business complex is three or more businesses and/or offices conducted on the same lot, which is pretty general, and the difference in the Ordinance is that you'd actually be. MR. MINEAUX-It would be an easier application, actually. I thought it would have been a lot easier, and I would have definitely like to have gone in as a business complex, but I didn't feel in good faith that they were. As I recall, I remember looking under the definition of a Business Complex. I didn't see any definition of the word "Business". That's one problem I ran into. MS. CIPPERLY-Because if you're a business complex, you automatically get one wall sign per occupant of the complex. Now, if you didn't, but, as you're saying, all your signs your proposing here tonight would really come under one of those businesses under K-Mart, but, still, that leaves the issue of, is Albany Savings entitled to a sign because they're a business complex? MR. TURNER-Yes. Where does that put them? MR. KARPELES-Yes. Would they even have to come before the Board? Would they need a variance? MR. TURNER-Sure. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, if they're attorney says he doesn't believe they're a business complex. MR. MINEAUX-Well, I'm not Albany Savings Bank's attorney. That's my point. I don't want to get into something that really doesn't relate to our. MS. CIPPERLY-And we did ask for information about how many different separate corporations were going to be in. MR. FANDEL-Since that meeting we've changed. Lenscrafters is out. They are no longer in there. Borick's is still there. There was another one, Nations Mart, which was a dry cleaners. They're no longer there. I mean, we've changed this out front situation. MR. MARESCO-And Little Caesar is out? MR. FANDEL-Little Caesar is out. Island Restaurant. It is definitely a Family MR. MARESCO-That's owned by K-Mart? MR. FANDEL-That's owned and operated by K-Mart. MR. TURNER-Okay. We'll deal with it as one. It's their application, if that's the way they want it, because I can see it going no place if they don't want to. - 6 - ',-- -.,/ MR. KARPELES-Well, I don't think this is too bad looking. I think it looks pretty good, but I'd hate to approve this, and then all of a sudden see an Albany Savings Bank sign up there sometime, without us ever having approved it. MR. TURNER-They don't get one. them one. I don't see how you could give MR. KARPELES-Are they automatically eliminated? MR. TURNER-Sure they are. They're a separate corporation. MS. CIPPERLY-None of were done with the complex. It was one were given fo,·. the site plan reviews or other approvals consideration that they were a business store, and that's what all those approvals MR. KARPELES-I can't imagine Albany Savings wanting to be in there without a sign, though. MR. TURNER-I can't, either. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, that's why we're trying to tie this down, because if there are two businesses only in there, each one would be entitled to a freestanding sign, and wall signage. If there are three businesses, they become like a shopping plaza. There's one freestanding sign allowed, and each of the separate businesses in there is allowed 100 square feet of sign. MR. KARPELES-Freestanding. MS. CIPPERLY-No, 100 square feet of wall sign, but one freestanding, like for Queensbury Plaza or Northway Plaza, that sort of thing, and that can also vary depending on the distance from the road. So, in this case, if you had two, or if you had more than three, each one of them would be allowed signage based on the distance from the road. Each one of those separate businesses could possibly have a 300 square foot sign, because of their distance from the front of, the building as I said, is over 900 feet from the road. MR. TURNER-Is the hair salon limited by any agreement between themselves and K-Mart as to their signage? MR. FANDEL-I believe it is on that one. exterior signage allowed. That there is no MR. TURNER-They're not allowed to have an exterior sign? MR. FANDEL-They're not allowed. MR. TURNER-What did you tell Albany Savings Bank? deal with them? What's the MR. FANDEL-Albany week. Other than having him give me to look like, this Savings Bank is brand new, within the last meeting with the gentleman this afternoon, and a set of plans and go, this is what it's going is the first I've heard of it. MR. TURNER-How much floor area are they going to take up? MR. FANDEL-About 600 square feet. It's not much. It's where the Nations Mart was originally. That's where they're going, in the same designated space. MR. FORD-When he said, this is the way it will look, did that include signage? MR. FANDEL-He just showed me on the inside of the building, over their thing it said Albany Savings Bank. - 7 - ~ -----. MR. TURNER-So their ability to do business is going to be compromised by the people that go in the store, then, right? In other words, the people that go in the store are going to see their sign inside the store, and then they're going to go there and do their business if they so choose, right? MR. FANDEL-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-It's probably possible, too, for the Board to determine that this is a single business in that building, and any further determinations that you make on this project will be based on that, because that's the way it's been presented to all the Planning Board reviews. MR. TURNER-This was never presented to the Planning Board then, right? MS. CIPPERLY-Not having separate businesses. It was going to be like a large department store. MR. TURNER-Yes. Okay. public hearing. Any other questions? Let me open the PUBLIC HEARING OPENED BOB WHIPPLE MR. WHIPPLE-My name is I was wondering if we about, the pictures. businessmen who'd like Bob Whipple from Livingstons' Furniture. might see the signs that they're talking There's a couple of other adjacent to take a look, too. MR. TURNER-Bob, the plan's right over there, if you'd care to look at that also. MS. CIPPERLY-The signs that they would be putting on the store would be the ones that are in these scalloped outlines. They originally, back in the spring, had proposed about 10 or 12 signs. MR. WHIPPLE-Mr. Turner, the one question that we have is, that the three of us have, is if in fact you grant these variances, or whatever, concessions as to size and stuff, would you, at this time, be willing to blanket the same for the three adjoining businesses that are right there? Because you know that once we give it to them, everybody on the street's going to want them, and as long as we've got everybody right here, and if they're not opposed to us having some extra signs, then we would, you know, I'm saying, we're right here all in one room, and if, in fact, you let them let us have the same existing percentage of wall space and stuff available to us at this time. MR. TURNER-The unfortunate thing is you'd have to draw it up and br i ng it in. MR. WHIPPLE-No. I'm just talking on a percentage basis. MR. TURNER-I know, but I couldn't tell you that. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, the other thing to keep in mind is that the Ordinance really isn't based on percentages of wall space. That's really meant to limit if somebody could put conforming signs on their building, that 25 percent is to limit, put an upper limit on the amount of your space that you can cover. Because maybe you're this distance from the road, but your building is only so big, and rather than cover the whole front of you building with signs, even if that was a conforming size, that 25 percent is to limit that. It's not to say that we allow signage on the basis of a percentage of wall space, like up to 25 percent, or anything like that. It's based on distance from the - 8 - -' '-' property line, and the type of businesses, number of businesses. MARTIN SEELEY MR. SEELEY-Martin Seeley, Seeleys Home Furnishings, Quaker Road. They, if I understand correctly, are asking for a certain percentage over and above the permitted size? MS. CIPPERLY-Square feet. MR. SEELEY-Square they're asking for permitted size. Con"ect? footage. Okay. The square footage that has to be a certain percentage more than the I don't know if anybody's figured that out. MR. TURNER-Their square footage is more than the permitted size, than the permitted allowed. MS. CIPPERLY--I usually figure that out, but this application has changed so many times that, frankly, I'm a little crazy from it. MR. SEELEY-What I'm saying is, if you're allowed 100, and they're asking for 200, then they're asking for 100 percent more than permitted size. I guess what we're asking is if they~re allowed a certain percentage more than permitted size, shouldn't we, at this time, be allowed a certain, that same percentage more than the permitted size? MS. CIPPERLY-Good point. MR. TURNER-No. MR. SEELEY-Fair for one, fair for the other. If they're allowing, if you're allowing them to double the size of permitted usage, shouldn't ~ be allowed to double the size of permitted usage? WALLY HIRSCH MR. HIRSCH-I'm Wally Hirsch from Quaker Farms. The other thing is, and as far as the ha)"dship, yes, their sto)"e is set way back, but the store almost does an advertising on its own, and with the massive size of the store and all that, the business of the signs and the lights and the cars and everything, that actually gives us, other stores, not only our three stores, but all the stores in the area, a hardship because we have to attract the people's attention to our stores because just the shee)" size and business of their store is an attraction by itself. So that would be the hardship that the other stores in the neighborhood would feel. MR. WHIPPLE-The one other problem that I find ~self faced with is I have a sign out front that's been legal. I have a sign permit for 30 years. It is, today, illegal, because of the changing of the road. You have brought the road to within feet. I mean, it's not going to get hit or anything, but I'm sure that somebody from here or a sign committee is going to come down and say, hey, according to the way this is drawn now, that sign is illegal. I haven't been asked to move it yet, but I'm sure that somebody some time is going to say, hey, where's your, and if you have to renew these sign permits, which I'm not sure what the situation is, if I'm grandfathered or not, but I'd like to address that while everybody's here, too. MR. TURNER-Your size is all right, but your setback? MR. WHIPPLE-My size is okay, but I'm probably a foot inside the line, which before, but now it's probably 12. right on the line. I'm was 30 foot off the road MR. TURNER-Yes, but you're on your property. - 9 - '---' -- MR. WHIPPLE-I'm on my property, yes, but I don't meet what these things say for sign. MR. TURNER-You're grandfathered. MS. CIPPERLY-That's on Dix? MR. WHIPPLE-On Dix, yes. MS. CIPPERLY-Okay, because I know on Quaker when that happened to businesses, DOT made some kind of agreement with all the owne,-s to allow them to have some kind of an easement. MR. TURNER-Warren County always allowed anybody that was in the right-of-way with the sign to stay there until they widened the road. When they widened the road, they had to remove the sign, but that's not your case. They've already widened the road. So you're there. MR. WHIPPLE-Okay. That answers that question. Thank you. MR. TURNER-I guess, before you sit down, Bob, are you folks in favor of this, or against it? MR. WHIPPLE-I'm in favor if we get the same concessions. MR. TURNER-I don't know. The Board can't sit here and tell you we're going to give you the same concessions, until we see what you bring forward. MR. WHIPPLE-Well, I meant just in general, in percentage. again, I wouldn't expect you just to rubber stamp it. Once MR. SEELEY-We would expect it to be approved based on a case by case basis. MR. TURNER-That's what it would be. MR. SEELEY-Based on staying within the certain percentage of increase that you've allowed them to stay within, over and above the above permitted size. MR. HIRSCH-Exactly. Whatever happens here, and this does set a precedent, not only for them but for the whole neighborhood, and perhaps the rest of the Town. MR. WHIPPLE-I mean, we're the closest, but there's four empty lots right now that are being dealt on that, and you know that everyone of them is going to show up here sooner or later, too. MR. SEELEY-And the other four lots are going to be occupied by heavy hitters, also. MR. HIRSCH-And then when Wal-Mart, it's the same thing on the other side, down in that whole section. MR. TURNER-They've already been here. sign package. They've already got their MR. MINEAUX-If I could address a couple of those points, and I think probably your last comment serves to dispel the gentleman's fears that this would be precedent setting, because, in fact, if Wal-Mart's application was precedent setting, we wouldn't be sitting here coming back as many times. I think the Board recognizes that each va,-iance application stands on its own, and none of them sets a precedent for the other. As a person who introduced percentages into this whole analysis, I'd like to speak to that. The point of bringing up percentages in our addendum was to demonstrate that in order to look at your Ordinance from a rational perspective, we took, for example, if - 10 - -- '-./ you had a store front which had 200 square feet on the wall, under the Ordinance, as long as it was setback 300 feet, the store could have a 50 square foot sign. It could cover one quarter of the front of that store. What K-Mart is asking for on the front of its store, on revised numbers, is a total signage of about four and a half percent. So looking at it from that perspective, it's the total impact of the signage covering the entire wall. As to the amount of variance, whether it's 200 percent or 150 percent of the signage which is allowed, I don't think, again, you can look at it from a blanket and say that if K-Mart receives 200 percent of what the Ordinance allowed, then every other store should, likewise, be able to receive that, because, again, you have to look at the signage in perspective to the wall that it's being put on, and I don't think that the Board would ultimately want to make a blanket ruling like that anyway. MR. HIRSCH-I have one further question, regarding the, it was Just this past winter. This past winter the same type of application, although from another group, was turned down for K- Mart. What's the difference between what they're saying now, that they think is a better deal now than the way it was presented the last time? It may be different people. It's the same program. MR. TURNER-Well, the last time around it was, like, 989 square feet, and this time it's 599. MR. KARPELES-This print shows the signs that have been cut out, if you want to take a look at that. MR. HIRSCH-Well, yes, but I guess what I'm saying is, the concept is the same. They want more, and is that the way the Town is looking at it? Because as it was said, if the Town's willing to give more, all of us are willing to take more, and I guess whether it's a little bit more, everything's relative, you know, and what is it, 400 feet less for a large store. Maybe that's not a big deal. Maybe we'll propose a big sign increase, and then come back with a relatively smaller one. Does that change the basic principal of the original decision, I guess, is the crux of the matter here. MR. TURNER-Well, at this point, we haven't done anything, but alluding to just what you said, here's a building that's almost four acres in size, and it's not stuck in a corner. It's sitting right out in front of everybody. It's all by itself, pretty much, and everybody knows it's coming to Town, and now they're asking for a tremendous amount of relief, ¡ think. It's unique in the sense that the size of the building makes it unique, but that doesn't make it, you know, that it should deviate too much from what the Ordinance says. MR. MINEAUX-If I might address that point, I think as Mr. Fandel indicated earlier, it is the very size of the building and the fact that the various departments are self contained, that what we consider to be the minimal signage we're asking for is necessary for the benefit of the customers. If elderly people or any customers, for that matter, is walking into the wrong end of the store, it's 170,000 square feet. All we're asking is for their ability to identify that the food is at the end and the restaurant is at that end, and perhaps the Pharmacy is over here in the middle, and the signs, at their size, given the dimension of the lot and the dimension of the building, certainly not a substantial deviation from the Code, as it relates to balance of the structure. I think that's what you have to look at, is the size of the structure, and the impact of the signs on that building. MR. MARESCO-So what you're saying is you don't think customers will be able to identify which is the retail and which is the? - 11 - ---- MR. MINEAUX-That's right, exactly. MR. MARESCO-The people who are, most, I'm sure they'll be in the parking lot when they're trying to figure out where they're going to go. I'm sure they're going to be close enough to identify. They're not going to be looking, on the road, where they're going to go. They'll be in the parking lot, figuring, well, I need to go grocery shopping or I need to go, you know, to the retail part. I'm sure they're going to know that it's there. MR. MINEAUX-Well, I think it's the parking lot that we're looking at. I think that you're looking at, basically, a blank, white wall, other than those minimal identifiers or location finders for customers, they wouldn't know, because they're looking at a blank wall. Again, looking at it against the criteria you consider, that is definitely the benefit which K-Mart has identified, without causing any negative impact on health, safety, welfare of the community, without causing any undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood, given the percentages, it's not a substantial variance that they're looking for. MR. THOMAS-I think I have to agree with the applicant, that just the sheer size of the building warrants the number and the size of the signs that they're asking for. It does sit 1,000 feet off the road, or nearly 1,000 feet off the road, and I don't, if you look 1,000 feet back, those signs are going to seem awful small, until you get into the parking lot. To me, what they're asking for is not unreasonable. MR. KARPELES-I agree with Chris. I you're going to go. I mean, it's a you drive in, you have to have ~ don't know how else you would unreasonable. think you need a map of where big enough store so that when idea of where to park, and I know. I don't think it's MR. SEELEY-If I could make another comment. I'd also reiterate my comments of some months ago, that we at Seeleys have waited 20 years for this end of Quaker Road, to build up, and I have no problem whatsoever with K-Mart except I wish they'd built where they put the wetlands, instead of building so far back, but I understand all that. I have no problem with the size of the signs, nor the number of the signs. I think they're very important. As far as the signs to show people where certain entrances are, they only need those signs one time. All right. The first time they're in the parking lot, they need those signs, to find that entrance. The second time, most people won't need that sign. Most people will remember where to go to get in a certain area. Our only thought, speaking for the three of us, was that if there's going to be an allowance to increase the size of the sign over the permitted use, that it would seem like this would be a good time for the three of us to present our case for possibility of increasing the size of our signs at a later date, on an individual, non rubber stamped basis. Other than that, I have no problem whatsoever. MR. TURNER-Okay. MR. FANDEL-If I could say something. We had the same, similar situation in Saratoga, on a store a quarter of this size, and on one side it says K-Mart, the main entrance where the service desk is. The other side was the Garden Shop, and the only words, and it said Garden Shop and then it said Entrance. Well, the only words that they would let us put up there was Entrance. They said you could kind of figure out, with the fence around it, that you could figure out it was a Garden Shop there. Well, that door is a fire door. It must remain open. So all our doors now are all electronic and they automatically open up. People come in there, see that entrance, it's not busy. So they say, well, I'll park over here, and they're coming back into the store, trying to bring something back, a book case, whatever. Now they realize, - 12 - ,--,,' "-- once they get in there, they are in the Garden Shop, and it's 560 feet that way, after they're already out of the car, gotten the kids out. As far as, you know, once you get there, I hope, as the gentleman says, that we do have a lot of repeat business, but in this area here, in the summer time, you get a lot of people, they don't even know what State they're in. Some of them are not sure what country they're in, and they're in this area. Those are the people, we hope to attract some of those people. We realize that a lot of them never get past that corner up there. We'd like to bring them down to this side down here. We are at the other end of Town, all right. We'd like to bring some of those people down here, especially during the summer. MR. TURNER-Do you have any directory inside the store, at the Super K-Mart entrance? MR. FANDEL-There are little maps that they will hand out, if you pick them up. They are there, but how many things do you pick up at the store? MR. TURNER-Nothing hung up so they could see it, the direction? MR. FANDEL-Nothing hung up over the doo,·s, no. MR. TURNER-Nothing inside that's hung up, as you walk in? MR. FANDEL-Inside all the way around, there are graphic signs that are hung up. Once you're inside, and I know, have you gentlemen been in there recently? MR. MARESCO-Today I was. MR. FANDEL-Okay. You stand inside, I mean, it's hard to see what's on the other side. I mean, you may be able to see what's directly across from you, but it's hard to see what's down at the other end, even the wall graphics. I mean, that's why we do, it may say Sporting Goods, but that whole 600 feet of sporting goods will all be in green with a baffle (lost word) that's there. So if somebody, you're asking and they say, well, you see where the green baffle is, you go in that direction. It's hard, once you're in there, to see the other end of the building. MS. CIPPERLY-You may be able to help your situation in the parking lot with some directional signs also, which are in Section 140-3. You might take a look at that. There are directional signs up to four square feet that don't even require a building permit. So those may be helpful as far as entrances, and where to park for. MR. FANDEL-If I could address that. We don't like to use any freestanding signs anywhere in there except the entrance and exits. That's it. People are driving in. There's people walking around in there. There's people who have kids, with shopping carts. We don't want them looking (lost words). That's why they're on the wall. They're big enough. Once you come in there, you kind of have to negotiate around the landscaping anyway, so you've got to be headed in the right direction. MR. TURNER-Okay. Anything, Tom? MR. FORD-No. I find the signs, if they're identical to those in this photograph, I find them in proportion to the remainder of the structu,-e. MR. TURNER-Some people don't need signs. Some people just walk in and look around, don't care where the signs are. MS. CIPPERLY-Ted, I found my notes from the original application. The total square footage of signage being requested was 1,065 square feet. That was 10 wall signs, and a 286 square foot - 13 - ~ -' freestanding sign, 45 feet in the air. MR. TURNER-Yes, I remember that one. MS. CIPPERLY-And this new one is a total of 599 on the front of the building. MR. TURNER-Yes. Anyone else wish to Mineaux? All right. Any discussion? think it's? speak? Anything, Mr. Everybody agree? Do you MR. THOMAS-I'm all set. I've already made my statement. MR. TURNER-All right. MR. KARPELES-Yes. MR. TURNER-We've got to have a motion. Just before we go with a motion, Sue, on that Super K-Mart Center sign, are these your figures or their figures, the 297.5? MS. CIPPERLY-Those are their figures. MR. TURNER-On this one right here, Sue? That's what, on the application, it's the same size. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. That was their figures. The change to that sign is, I think what they had said last time was actually bigger. I can measure it. MR. TURNER-Are you going to do the three segments separately? Is that what you're going to do? MS. CIPPERLY-No. The only around is underneath "Super" the "P", go from the top of probably five feet, because part that we would normally outline there, which looks like it's about, the "S" to the bottom of the "P", is it's four, six to the bottom of the US" . MR. TURNER-Yes, but I'm saying, then you're going to go five by seventeen foot three? Is that what you're going to do? Is that how you do it? MS. CIPPERLY-No. That space in between "Super" and "K" would also be included. MR. TURNER-Okay. So that's a foot and a half, because I think we talked about this at the last meeting that we scheduled, agreed to hear it as a new application. MS. CIPPERLY-See, the last time they came, they didn't have the "24 Hour" part in there, and that's what Jim was pointing out, was that we could outline around the "K", rather than calling that nine by fifty. The square footage could be reduced by outlining around and coming back up. MR. TURNER-Yes, but that isn't the way we do it. MS. CIPPERLY-That's the way we do it on a sign that has different, like on Rex TV. MR. TURNER-No. We did the same thing on Staples, right? MS. CIPPERLY-You made them put a border around it. MR. TURNER-You just went a border, around like this, like this, like this, and that was the sign. MS. CIPPERLY-If Staples didn't have a border around it, we would have figured around the outline. The same thing with - 14 - -_/ '--" Honingsbaums and Ben Franklin Crafts. MR. TURNER-Yes, but this doesn't have a border either. MS. CIPPERLY-Right. This isn't a huge difference here anyway. I mean, if you want to call it nine by fifty sign, just take the nine by fifty. MR. TURNER-I think we should, because that's the way we've done them, I know that. We've never gone around the. MS. CIPPERLY-This is not a significant amount here, and then they'll be covered. MR. THOMAS-I think we ought to talk to Mr. Martin, find out exactly how he does these, and make sure we're both on the same wavelength, here. MR. TURNER-I know, but remember the argument with Staples? MR. THOMAS-Yes, right. MR. TURNER-So if they put a border around it, then they didn't, the whole thing didn't (lost word). MS. CIPPERLY-The problem with Staþles was that it was impossible to tell where their sign ended and the building began, because they painted. MR. TURNER-That was their argument. That wasn't mine. MS. CIPPERLY-So, if you want to call this nine by fifty. MR. TURNER-I think we should, because if we go start picking them apart. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, well where this is now filled in over here, that's different than the last time. MR. TURNER-I,..Je ' r e going to call it that, right? MS. CIPPERLY-Well, if you look at this dimension, 50.6. MR. TURNER-They've got 50.8 there. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, 50.75. Yes, that would be the correct figure. MR. TURNER-Yes. So the correct figures for that Super K-Mart sign is 456.75. That should be reflected in the application, too. Okay. Does anybody want to make a motion? You don't have a problem with the size of the signs? I do, a little bit, but this has got to go to Warren County tomorrow night, and if it doesn't get by them, it has to be a majority, it has to be a five plus vote right here tonight, to approve it, if they deny it. If they deny it, it has to be a majority plus one. So that's a five vote, positive, and I'm not trying to sway your thinking. I'm just telling you, that's where it is, if they deny it. MS. CIPPERLY-Typically, Warren County denies these, because they say they are not, basically it's, trying not to counter the Town Zoning, or Sign Ordinance. Can we keep one set of photos? MR. MINEAUX-You can keep them. MR. FORD-There is a difference between the schematic here and the descriptor ín here. One shows 50.8 feet, and this is 50 feet 8 inches, and they're not the same, obviously. MR. TURNER--No. - 15 - --' MS. CIPPERLY-Fifty feet eight inches, that would be 50.75, I guess maybe they rounded it up. MR. FORD-So this is 50 feet 8 inches. MS. CIPPERLY-Yes, nine inches would be. MR. FORD-Seventy-five. That would be 50.75, if it were 9 inches. So which are we dealing with? MS. CIPPERLY-In the motion you should probably refer. either to this as per these drawings. MR. TURNER-As per the drawings. Did you find any of the others out of ordeT, correct dimensions? MS.. CIPPERL V-Are there any discrepancies that you kno¡"J of, or changes between the drawing and the chart? MR. FORD-50.67 as opposed to 50.8. MS. CIPPERLY-That chart should be corrected. It should be 50 feet 8 inches. MR. TURNER-On the Super K-Mart sign? MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. MR. FORD-So that should be changed. MR. TURNER-Fifty feet eight inches is the length. MS. CIPPERLY-Here it says 50 feet eight inches on the drawing, but on their chart they had 50.8. MR. FORD-So it should be 50 feet 8 inches, is the correct one? MS. CIPPERLY-Right. The drawing is correct. I would just say, as per this drawing. MR. TURNER-Okay. MOTION TO APPROVE SIGN VARIANCE NO. 53-1994 Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved seconded by Robert Karpeles: K-MART CORPORATION, for its adoption, Relief is granted on the following signs: Super K-Mart Center 24 Hours, which is 9' by 50' 8"; Garden Shop, 2' 9" by 23' 9 1/2"; Fresh Food sign, 19' 9" by 2' 9"; Auto Service, 22' 7 1/2" by 2' 9"; Pharmacy, 18' 8 1/2" by 2' 9"; Restaurant, 19' 6" by 2' 9". This facility is unique in the sense that it's 1,000 feet back from the roadways, and is an immense structure of some four acres in size. It has a diversity of departments within the store. The Ordinance allows 300 square feet on the front of the store, and 140 square feet on the side of the building. This proposal calls for a total of 599 square feet, which is a variance of 212.07 square feet. There are no feasible alternatives, other than to seek a variance, due to the location and the size of the store. This variance applies only to K-Mart and does not apply to other businesses that might go in there at a later date. The proposed signage will not have a negative impact on the community, and this is the minimum relief that will achieve this purpose. The Environmental Assessment Form shows no negative impact. Duly adopted this 11th day of October, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Ford, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Turner - 16 - '"-, '-....../ NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter, Mr. Carvin MS. CIPPERLY-You should also mention for the record that, well, I guess it doesn't matter, the Warren County determination. MR. TURNER-If they vote it down, they've got five positive votes as far as those signs go. Now we've got one more. Okay. SIGN VARIANCE NO. 54-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED PC-1A K-MART CORPORATION OWNER: QUEENSBURY RETAIL LIMITED PARTNERSHIP DIX AVENUE AT QUAKER ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO INSTALL A NINETY- $EVEN (97) SQUARE FOOT FREESTANDING SIGN, SETBACK THIRTY (30) FEET FROM THE PROPERTY LINE, AND SEEKS RELIEF FROM SECTION 140- 6B(2), WHICH STATES THAT THE SURFACE AREA OF ONE (1) SIDE SHALL NOT EXCEED FIFTY (50) SQUARE FEET AT A FIFTEEN FOOT SETBACK OR SIXTY-FOUR (64) SQUARE FEET AT A TWENTY-FIVE FOOT SETBACK. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 10/12/94 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-2.1,2.2 LOT SIZE: N/A SECTION 140-6B JOHN MINEAUX AND MR. FANDEL, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. TURNER-Mr. Mineaux. MR. MINEAUX-This is your first chance to show that the last decision wasn't precedent setting. I would just suggest that when we look at the benefits to be derived by K-Mart, I would measure it against any detriment to health, safety and welfare, which is the standard which you use. Adding an additional foot and a half of width to the sign, and an additional two feet of height to the sign would not cause any negative impact whatsoever on the health, safety and welfare. On the other hand, the benefit to K-Mart is the additional view that motorists or pedestrians would have, coming from either direction on those two roads that intersect at the front of this building (lost word) 1,000 feet from this building. Given that setback, we talked about this being a 170,000 square foot building. It is far enough back so that (lost word) down the highway might not see the location quite correctly. So adding an additional, making, essentially, an eight by twelve foot sign, as opposed to a six and a half by ten foot sign isn't any substantial impact, nègative impact, if you will, on the Town, ¡:6a,"ticularly to the health, safety and welfare. On the other ha~d, the benefit to K- Mart would be substantial. I have pictures. These, again, are photographs from the Amsterdam Super K-Mart, and for purposes of your comparison, the sign you're looking at is 180 square feet, and we're asking for a 97 square foot sign. That's a 15 by 12 foot sign. MR. FORD-And what is the distance from the sign that the photographer wants? MR. FANDEL-Probably about 30 feet. MR. KARPELES-Now this is the same store that we saw before? MR. FANDEL-Same exact store, yes. MR. TURNER-Thirty feet? That looks more than thirty feet. MR. MINEAUX-That sign, again, is 450 feet from the store. It's about 450 feet frontage on that store, as opposed to just under 1,000. MR. TURNER-How is the approach to the store in Amsterdam, compared to the approach to this store? MR. FANDEL-It's all down it's a down grade all the hill. way. You enter the parking lot, and The other thing I'd like to say - 17 - -- is this is not a typical intersection. I mean, if you looked it up in an engineering book, you'd never find the intersection that we have here at Quaker and Dix. Theirs is a perfect square intersection there, four roads joining together. That's where the sign is, right at the stop light. Ours is, I'm wondering if we actually have that sign in the right location. We talked about that earlier. We looked at the people coming in there in the last couple of days, and they all want to use the, not the main entrance of the store. They all want to go in the side entrance. MR. MINEAUX-Again, the Company is seeking to be somewhat sensitive to your conce)"ns, and I know that, initially, a sign had been proposed which is 100 square feet larger than the one you're looking at. MS. CIPPERLY-Two hundred square feet larger. MR. MINEAUX-Well, no, larger than the one we're looking atJ it's 180. MS. CIPPERLY-Than that one in the picture. MR. TURNER-When your competitor came here, Walmart, they wanted two signs, two freestanding signs of 99 square, one for themselves and one for Ames, and they were denied. They're 600 feet from the road. They're up a grade. Their store is not that visible, at this point, but when they build the store, it's going to be 29 feet in the air, and they're going to cut the grade a bit, but those two applications were denied, and they're going to go for their conforming sign. So, with the sign package that we just granted, I don't think that an over sized sign is necessary here. MR. MINEAUX-I guess, first, your denial of Walmart, I'm sure, is not precedent to deny ours. MR. TURNER-No, no, but I'm just saying. MR. MINEAUX-Our sign is not over sized. I mean, it's over sized from your perspective, but the Ordinance it's under sized, with respect to the usual customary K-Mart sign. The one that you're looking at in the photo, actually, is under sized, and I think most of the focus is on the topography of that intersection. MR. TURNER-No, but I think Mr. Morgan directed some question as to what the National Realty Corporation got in reference to their signage, which is Walmart. So I'm just directing the answer back. MR. MINEAUX-I'm not Mr. Morgan. I wouldn't even suggest that. MR. TURNER-I know you're not. MS. CIPPERLY-Ted, there are staff Notes that didn't get read in. MR. TURNER-Yes. We've got to read them. Given the size of the building that you've got there, and the size of the lot it's on, you couldn't miss it. You don't even need that sign. MR. MINEAUX-Well, I understand what you're saying. In fact, I was just talking about that. If the store were in the middle of a perfectly flat area, you would see the store, and you wouldn't miss it. MR. TURNER-You're not even sure that you're even putting it in the right place. MR. FANDEL-Well, there is really no other place you could put it. If we went on the other side we'd be, I think, encroaching on - 18 - _../ ~ that other store there, the Furniture store, and I wouldn't do that. MR. KARPELES-You don't have a map that shows where it's going to go, do you? I don't remember seeing it. MR. FANDEL-No. I don't have a site map. It's going to go on the main, we discussed this. MR. TURNER-It's going on Quaker, the corner of Quaker and Highland? MS. CIPPERLY-The corner of Quaker and Dix, to the, where Livingstons' is, it would be to the south. MR. TURNER-South of Livingstons'. MS. CIPPERLY-Right where Dix and Quaker angle together. Livingstons' is over here. Their sign was going to be 30 feet off of that JOln. It would be the southwest corner of that intersection, right where Dix and Quaker come together. MR. TURNER-Okay. Across from the Sunoco Station, right? MS. CIPPERLY-Yes. MR. TURNER-You're not going to see the sign if you come from the east, are you, unless it sets at an angle. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, as I said, no alternatives. MR. FANDEL-No matter how you set that, if you're coming down one of those roads, you're going to miss it. MS. CIPPERLY-It's because it's an "X" type intersection. MR. FANDEL-Yes. practices. That intersection defies all engineering MR. MINEAUX-That's the reason that they wanted it 45 feet high. MS. CIPPERLY-But if you're coming down Dix, you've already seen the store. MR. TURNER-Yes, you've already gone by the store. MS. CIPPERLY-So, it doesn't matter that Livingstons' is blocking it. MR. TURNER-No. That's why I don't see the need for an over sized sign. MR. THOI'1AS-No. MR. FORD-While we're drawing comparisons between the one in the photograph and the one being requested, there also is a substantial difference in the way it is projected, in terms of one being a masonry, solid structure, actually wider than the sign itself. That's the one being requested, as opposed to the one in the photograph which basically appears to be on a metal pole. MR. FANDEL-We could do it if you want. We thought this looked better. If you think the pole one, it's more economical for us to do the pole one, and quicker. MR. FORD-I didn't say I had a preference. MR. FANDEL --0 kay . seen the stoì-e. Like you said, if you're on Dix, you've already It's where to set the sign at that intersection. - 19 - "'-- - MR. TURNER-Yes, because, YOU know, where you're proposing it, Livingstons' blocks it one way, and then coming from the east, if it's set at an angle like this, straight on, you're never even going to see it anyway. You're going to look. at the store first. You're going to see the store first. You're not even going to see that sign. MR. FANDEL-Quaker is the one where we actually want to see it, because that's where we feel we're going to get the traffic from, tha.t (lost word) that does not know where the staTe is. Local people that we get in there for applications all come in by Livingstons', on the side there. That's the entrance they've been using. Nobody has been using (lost word). MR. TURNER-Yes, but if anybody comes there from any direction, they couldn't miss that with anything. I mean, it stands right up there. It's such an immense structure, with the sign package you just got, you don't need an over sized sign standing up in front of the store that you can't even see. That's where I'm coming from. MR. MINEAUX-That's why we went back down to 25 feet. MR. TURNER-Has anybody else got any thoughts? MR. KARPELES-I agree with you. MR. MARESCO-Yes. miss the store. I agree with Ted, too. I don't think you can I don't even think you need the sign at all. MR. TURNER-We just gave you an enormous sign package. MR. MARESCO-Yes, there's no way to miss that. MR. TURNER-If that doesn't tell the story, then that sign will never do it either. MR. MARESCO-You need to do more work, then, if people don't see that store. MS. CIPPERLY-I know that if you're going west on Dix, you really see the front of the building, well away from the intersection. MR. TURNER-Yes. MS. CIPPERLY-So if you have your K-Mart sign on the front of the building, I think that's, people won't even notice a freestanding sign. MR. TURNER-You're kind of like the only kid on the block right there, on the corner, in a sense, the size of it, besides these guys. I mean, just your size alone. Okay. Do you want to read the notes? MR. THOMAS-Yes. STAFF INPUT Notes from Staff, Sign Variance No. 54-1994, K-Mart Corporation, Meeting Date: October 11, 1994 "APPLICANT: K-Mart PROJECT LOCATION: Dix Avenue and Quaker Road PROPOSED ACTION: Const"uction of freestandi ng sign. CONFORMANCE WITH THE ORDINANCE: Section 140-6 of the Sign Ordinance allows one freestanding sign, at a minimum of fifteen feet from any property line. The surface area of one side shall not exceed fifty square feet at a fifteen-foot setback or sixty-four square feet at a twenty-five-foot setback. Applicant is proposing a ninety-seven square foot sign, at a distance of thirty feet from the property line. REASON FOR VARIANCE REQUEST, AND BENEFIT TO APPLICANT: Applicant believes this size is necessary to allow visibility - 20 - -/ ~ from contiguous highways. FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES: While this may be the best location for the sign, no discussion of alternative locations was included in the application. IS THIS RELIEF SUBSTANTIAL RELATIVE TO THE ORDINANCE? The proposed sign size is 152% of the allowed square footage. No other signs in the neighboring area have proposed, or been granted variances for sign size. Other large commercial projects in the Town, such as Walmart, have proposed increased square footage for their freestanding sign, and been disapproved. EFFECTS ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY: The applicant claims that their sign would be an enhancement to a neighborhood which contains seemingly undesirable visual elements, and that their sign would make a positive impression upon those entering Queensbury, by comparison. Immediate neighbors on this intersection include a gas station, a commercial nursery, a community workshop facility, and light industrial businesses, all of which have made an effort to make this an attractive area. The properties mentioned by the applicant are not in competition for the attention of passersby, and do not dominate the neighborhood. It could be argued that granting a request for an oversized sign at the entry to Queensbury would be an indicator to other large commercial projects that the Town is open to such proposals. IS THIS DIFFICULTY SELF-CREATED?: The difficulty does not seem to lie with the Ordinance, rather with the applicant's perceived need to advertise their store. STAFF COMMENTS AND CONCERNS: The Ordinance does not base allowed freestanding sign size on the size of the building. It has been mentioned that the very size of the store will advertise its existence. The storefront signage will be visible from the road, as well, so visibility is not totally dependent on the freestanding sign. SEOR: Short form EAF must be reviewed." MR. TURNER-Okay. Let me open the public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING OPENED B08 WHIPPLE MR. WHIPPLE-Bob Whipple, again. Livingstons'. I'm not in support or unsupporting right at this point. I would like to see the proximity of the sign on a site plan map, just to give me an idea where it's located, and I would also like to see a picture of the sign that they sent around, just to get an idea. I saw the sketch. I kind of think that I'm in favor of the metal, more so than the heavy blockage of the concrete. MR. TURNER-Visibility. MR. FORD-Less obstructive. MR. WHIPPLE-I think at this time I'm kind of inclined to agree with the rest of, Martin and Wally, here, that the signage already granted on the regular part of the store should be well sufficient. I mean, I'm all for them getting a regular freestanding sign that fits the existing Ordinance, and I have no problem with the placement. Coming from Hudson Falls every day, as soon as I break Dix Avenue, at the Highland intersection, which is a good long ways away, the front of that store faces you right in the eye, and right now, you don't know what it is, ~nless you're me or somebody else in the area, but once you put those K-Marts, there will be no problem distinguishing it from that directiorl, ~nd I kind of also agree with these folks. I think maybe they're making a mistake putting it up that ~lose to the corner. You confuse somebody. There's no entrance there. It should be, in my estimation, and I'm not an engineer or anything, it should be closer to your entrance. I mean, at best you're probably going to bring them in to me. I mean, at that point, I'm sure they're going to realize I'm not the K-Mart, but I wOuld think thðt, ev,en"if w:e were to grant them a variance so they didn't have to be as far off the road near the entrance. I - 21 - '- would think that coming down Quaker is where I'd want to see it, too. That would be the only place that I would think maybe you might be confused, if you were coming down, where the entrance, and so on, and if that sign, I know that when ~ go to a place, and I'm not familiar with it, I usually head for the sign, and the sign usually is a good indicator as to where the entrance is. It's usually located fairly close. MS. CIPPERLY-So you're suggesting it could be nearer to Highland? MR. WHIPPLE-Well, nearer to that, their entrance, which is about halfway between Dix and Highland. I'm not saying put it down on Highland. I don't want them to put it over the hill. They won't be seen. I want them to bring as many people as they can, but I~m just saying, I know the question was brought up, it may not be in the right place, and I agree with that. I think that, if anything, depending on ho~.¡ they ,angle it, that could interfere with the view of the store when you come down Dix from the other direction, because it could end up blocking~ maybe, the Super or the Open 24 Hour part of the sign, where if it's this way, you wouldn't have, but at this point, I don't have a problem, but I would like to see the metal one. Thank you. WALLY HIRSCH MR. HIRSCH-Wally Hirsch, Quaker Farms. I pretty much agree with what Bob has said, all the way through. An additional comment that's touching on a point that I brought up during last winter's meetings, a circumstance that none of the other folks have to face is we grow plants in our greenhouses. These plants are started from the beginning. We're very, very concerned about light pollution. I made some questions, and they assured me that there'd be no light pollution from their big parking lot lights, but, again, a sign that would be lighted, if they increase the size~ I think that'll just increase the light pollution that we're faced with, and, again, the light pollution can cause a delay or failure of our crops to finish off, and that's really critical to us. So, on that basis alone, I'm against the increase in the size. I'd like to get a larger sign, myself, because when the road was widened, they moved all the poles. So it would do us a world of good to have a larger sign, too, but I think it's a level playing field, here, and lets keep the signs inside the Ordinance, and another thing is, guys, don't keep calling us an undesirable element. Forget the junkyard. We've got the nice area. We think the chain stores are the undesirable element. MR. TURNER-Anyone else? Okay PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED MR. TURNER-Any further conversation? Any further comment? Okay. Motion's in order, then. MOTION TO DENY SIGN VARIANCE NO. 54-1994 Introduced by Theodore Turner who moved seconded by Anthony Maresco: K-MART CORPORATION, for its adoption, Testimony by the applicant has indicated that they, themselves, are not sure that the sign sets in a desirable location, and if it sets where it's proposed to set, it certainly indicates that the sign will not be seen from two distinct directions. The relief is substantial relative to the Ordinance. The oversized sign will have a negative impact on the community. There are other commercial ventures there who have signs that are pretty much all conforming. The difficulty is self-created. The difficulty does not lie with the Ordinance, but rather the applicant's perceived need to advertise their store, and the store frontage will be visible from the road. So the visibility is not totally dependent upon the freestanding sign. - 22 - -.-/ '-- Duly adopted this 11th day of October, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Maresco, Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Ford, Mr. TU1" ner NOES: NONE ABSENT: Mr. Menter, Mr. Carvin OLD BUSINES~: USE VARIANCE NO. 47-1994 TYPE: UNLISTED SR-1A FAITH BIBLE CHURCH DON KIPER, PASTOR DIVISION ROAD APPLICANT REQUESTS TO HAVE THIS APPLICATION RE-REVIEWED AS WAS DENIED AT THE SEPTEMBER 28, 1994 ZBA MEETING. REQUEST IS TO PLACE A MOBILE HOME ON THEIR 98.44 ACRE PROPERTY FOR SECURITY PURPOSES, AND SEEKS RELIEF FROM SECTION 179-19, WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW MOBILE HOMES IN THIS SUBURBAN RESIDENTIAL ZONE. (WARREN COUNTY PLANNING) 9/14/94 TAX MAP NO. 148-1-1 LOT SIZE: 98.44 ACRES SECTION 179-19D PUBLIC HEARING: CLOSED ZBA ACTION: DENIED STATUS: REQUEST TO BE RE-HEARD MR. TURNER-We have one other item of business, and that's a request by the Faith Bible Church that we consider re-hearing their previous application for a mobile home on their site. They addressed some of the requests that we made to them, but, Chris, do you want to read the letter. MR. THOMAS-A letter dated October 7, 1994, addressed to Mr. Theodore Turner, Chairman, regarding Use Variance No. 47-1994, "Dear Mr. Turner: On September 28, 1994, the Zoning Board denied our request for a Use Variance that would allow us to place a mobile home on our property. The board denied our request because it felt that we did not exhaust our options. Since the September 28th meeting we have followed the board's advice with the following results: 1. We did contact Habitat for Humanity and denied help. Please see attached letter. 2. I spoke with Dave Hatin of the Building Department and he told me that any addition would have to be of the same construction. Our current building is a metal building with concrete block interior which would not be suitable for a living residence for a family. 3. We did apply for a loan to place a modular home on the property but we were denied. Please see attached letter. The only other option we have is to place gates at the end of Ogden and Division Roads to stop vehicles from entering our property when weare not using the facility. We know that this will create problems for the town when snow plowing is necessary (see attached letter from Paul Naylor) and with our neighbors. Before we carried out this option, we would ask that you would reconsider ou¥ request. Sincerely, Don Kiper" MR. TURNER-Do you want to read Paul's letter. MR. THO~ÄS-Aletter dated October 3, 1994, Ted Turner, Chairman, Zoning Board, "Dear Mr. Turner: I wish to comment on the applicant at the end of Division and Ogden Roads. Talking with the applicant he forewarned me as Highway Superintendent that he will be cutting off the property to our snow plows, which will cause a severe hardship for this department; there is nowhere to turn around at the end of these streets. We have been plowing through that area in my administration for the past thirteen years and long under other administrations. Respectfully, Paul H. Naylor Highway Superintendent Town of Queensbury" MR. TURNER-Okay. MS. CiPPERLY-There's also other letters there from Habitat. I don't know that you need to read them. - 23 - "-- -.-/ MR. TURNER-No. We don't need to read them, because they're already addressed. He already addressed them in his letter to the Board. Okay. To. re-hear we have to have a unanimous vote of all the members present. Now, I'd like to make a comment about Paul's letter to me about their hardship in plowing the road. At any time, the Faith Bible Church could close that road, since they own both ends of it. So that's not a criteria for granting a variance, especially a Use Variance. They have 98 acres. Tom, they had a trailer on there in 1991. They took it off. After 18 months, it reverts back to the zone it's in. So it's SR. It's not allowed a mobile home there. They didn't bring any financial evidence to this Board that the 98 acres, that they couldn't do anything different than sticking another modular home on there. So this Board turned it down unanimously. We had another application on the next street over, Division Street, and we've had other applications where people have wanted to put mobile homes as a second residence on a piece of property to take care of, maybe, their elderly parents, or some member of the family that might be sick or otherwise, in particular, Mr. Chatterton who was on Division Street was turned down for the same reason. So, the hardship doesn't lie with the Ordinance. The hardship lies with the ability of the applicant to securely patrol his property. He's got a security problem. MS. CIPPERLY-What's at issue tonight, though, is whether that application has enough additional information to possibly reconsider it. He came in and discussed this with me and said he was just kind of naive because this was the first time he'd ever had to do anything like this, and didn't realize that maybe he ought to bolster it with some financial evidence, as far as their inability to build a conventional home on the property, and it was his, he's convinced that this is the way to go, as far as security goes, and said he really did not want to have to block it off because it would give his, the property, the appearance of a compound. So he looked into the Habitat business, and brought evidence that, and he brought evidence of their loan, getting turned down for the loan. I don't know how else you prove the need for what he wants to do, because I think it is kind of a unique situation there, but has he given you enough information to reconsider the application is really, you could, if you wanted to, set another public hearing and discuss all the issues involved, but what you really have to do tonight is decide whether this application has enough more information to make it a different application. Last time you considered it had no. MR. TURNER-Yes, but again, I'd have to revert back to the same thing I just said. What's different about this application than Mr. Chatterton, or somebody else that's been before this Board, that needed a second residence on their property to take care of their elderly parents? There's no difference. MS. CIPPERLY-There isn't any residence on this. MR. TURNER-No, I know, but there was, at one time. How does this Board answer the people we've turned away for the same reason? MS. CIPPERLY-I suppose because they're not a 95 acre camp with a security problem. They have somebody living on their property that takes care of security. It's themselves. MR. TURNER-Yes, but that's not the criteria for the Use Variance. MS. CIPPERLY-Well, you asked me how you would address those people, and I'm just saying, it's a different situation. MR. TURNER-I know, but I'm saying, that's not the criteria for a Use Variance. He's got 90 some acres. They've owned it since 1970 something. He's owned it a long time anyway, and his statement to the Board, to have that security problem, really doesn't address the Use Variance. Can you build a conventional - 24 - ,-,' _..../ house on there? Yes. he can. They house on there, because they have 98 out one acre and build that house. don't know how everybody else feels. could ac,-es. That's build a conventional So they could carve the way I feel. I MR. THOMAS-I was just going through the criteria for a Use Variance, and it says in this one, are the circumstances of this lot unique and not due to the unreasonableness of the Ordinance. Now you've got to remember, the lot is unique. It is 98 acres. There used to be a trailer on there, until three years ago. They do have a problem, and I would even consider Paul Naylor's problem with snow plowing in the winter time. That's part of the uniqueness of the lot, that three different Town roads. MR. TURNER-Yes, but what if that wasn't there? MR. THOMAS-What? MR. TURNER-Suppose Paul didn't have a place he could run from one street to the other? MR. THOMAS-But he does. MR. TURNER-He'd have to plow it to the dead end. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but the thing of it is, he does, now, have a place to do that. MR. MARESCO-Yes, but the other side of the grant them that, and he decides to put up might decide to put up a fence. coin, supposing a fence anyway? we He MR. THOMAS-Well, if we were to grant a variance to this, I would put a time limit on the amount of time that trailer would stay there. I would put no more than five years. That's a reasonable amount of time for them to come up with the funds to build a house on that property, or somehow raise the capital needed to get on there, but I see in this area, are the circumstances of this lot unique, yes, they are. They are unique, because it is a 98 acre. They are having a security problem that they're trying to alleviate, by having somebody on the property. I'm surprised there isn't more problems in that neighborhood with people outside the Church property, if they're having problems on this Church property. There's probably other problems around that neighborhood, too, and as far as, they're an adverse effect on the neighborhood character, there was a trailer there three years ago. So the character of the neighborhood wouldn't be changed. There used to be a trailer there, and he's tried. Everything we've suggested, he's tried, and he's gotten shot down all the way around. MR. TURNER-Well, they're not it. That's their problem. anything with. in a position to do anything about They don't have the funds to do MR. KARPELES-I think we merely mentioned that he didn't exhaust his options. I don't think we said we turned it down because he didn't exhaust his options. MR. TURNER-If everybody came in here and said they had security problems, and they need to put another residence or another place for somebody to live to watch the place. MR. THOMAS-Yes, but how many places that are in Queensbury that that would happen? MR. TURNER-No, but I mean, I've got to go back to other the street wanting to put a trailer on his more than big enough. He could cut an acre out of he had two acres, over two acres, and we turned him the guy at the lot, \¡~hich is it, and make, down, and he - 25 - .-"" had sick parents. MR. THOMAS-In that case, he could have put an addition on the house. MR. TURNER-He's doing it. He's doing it right now. MR. THOMAS-That's his al ternative. This Chu1'ch does not have, as far as I can see, any alternative. MR. KARPELES-They can put a fence up. They can put a gate up, like he said. That's an alternative. MR. THOMAS-But will it stop? MR. TURNER-The gates probably won't stop it. His testimony, the last time, was that they come from the back of the lot, and across the lot. So the gate isn't going to do them any good anyway. MR. THOMAS-No. MR. TURNER-He's caught hunters in there, he said. They could come from the other way. Well, do you guys think there's enough information here to hear it again? MR. THOMAS-I believe there is. MR. TURNER-What do YOU think? MR. KARPELES-I don't think so. MR. MARESCO-I don't think so, either. Habitat for Humanity is something completely different. MR. TURNER-Yes. MR. MARESCO-They need, he would have to donate a certain amount of his property, and I'm sure he didn't want to do that. MR. TURNER-No. MR. MARESCO-So that's something completely different. MR. TURNER-Motion's in order, then. Do you want to make a motion to re-hear it, or not re-hear it, whatever you want to do. MOTION TO NOT RE-HEAR USE VARIANCE NO. 47-1994 FAITH BIBLE CHURCH, Introduced by Robert Karpeles who moved for its adoption, seconded by Anthony Maresco: Which we denied at the last meeting. I don't think that there's sufficient justification for re-hearing it, and it appears that there is an alternative that he has mentioned himself, that it can be done, which is to put a gate up there. Duly adopted this 11th day of October, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Karpeles, Mr. Maresco, Mr. Turner NOES: Mr. Thomas ABSTAINED: Mr. Ford ABSENT: Mr. Menter, Mr. Carvin MR. TURNER-We don't have a majority. We need one more. MS. CIPPERLY-No. It would have to be a unanimous vote of those - 26 - '-," -.-' present. MR. TURNER-That's right. I'm thinking of something else. You're right. Okay. It's a denial. TIMOTHY BREWER MR. BREWER-So it's denied, Ted? MR. TURNER-·Yes. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Theodore Turner, Chairman - 27 - Yes.