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2010-03-08 SP MTG. #10 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 646 TOWN BOARD MEETING MTG. #10 March 8, 2010 RES. 133 7:00 P.M. TOWN BOARD MEMBERS SUPERVISOR DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN ANTHONY METIVIER-ABSENT COUNCILMAN RONALD MONTESI COUNCILMAN JOHN STROUGH COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER TOWN OFFICIALS Appraiser Ted Bigelow Assessor Teri Ross Town Counsel Mike Hill Representative of Queensbury Central Volunteer Fire Co. Inc. Post Star Reporter Supervisor Stec-Opened the Meeting DISCUSSION: QUEENSBURY CENTRAL FIRE COMPANY, INC. - BUDGET Supervisor Stec-We visited with them awhile ago and suggested that they go back and look at potential options that they might have concerning their building proposal. Representative of Queensbury Central-We met with Richard Jones to break this down into phases. First phase-site work for the project, the expansion of the parking and renovations to the existing building Phase two – site work for the building addition and the building addition on the back side of the existing building Items to be done in first phase-larger parking lot for public assembly uses of the building, realign driveways and expand turning lanes with the size of their equipment they have major problem getting through the back to the back side of the building. Alternations to the existing building include the replacement of the roof system, looking to replace the existing roof top units that are almost twenty years old, with new energy efficient units for heating and cooling. The current system is twenty years old, a single unit. Want to convert to gas fired units with cooling modular. Interior alternations, replace panels, and redoing the epoxy floors with new finish. Future addition off the east side of the building, will redo the meeting room, lighting, ceiling, finishing flooring and constructing knock out panels for future doorways. Upgrading the security system, mechanical electrical system required work…replace duct work…also replace the hot water heaters…extending the sanitary drainage …and extending hot and cold service piping for future connections…Cost estimates $770,000. construction start in 2010, 10% contingency for unforeseen conditions. Additional costs, building design fees, architectural eng. fees, site plan review, for the proposed expansion of the parking and future addition. Also monies for DEC storm water permit and other expenses for DEC. Small expense for regulatory fees and expenses. Allowance for legal fees and closing costs of approximately $27,000 and DEC storm water permit inspections during construction … total added of $125,000…total phase I cost just under $896,000. Phase II – building addition, including the addition to the east side of the building with three new apparatus bays and mechanical equipment room, SCDA work room, gear storage, radio work room, fitness room, men’s and women’s locker rooms … unisex toilet with a shower and general storage. Connecting corridor for connection between the existing building and new addition. Site work basically excavation backfill, final grading around the building and relocate the dumpster and enclosure to the far east side of the parking lot. Interior alterations, include ripping out knock out panels, relocating exterior windows, remodeling existing coat room into a uniform storage room remodeling existing lobby and meeting room and installing new doors to limit access to the fire-a-matic areas. Remodeling the pantry and chair- table storage room to an expanded pantry storage room. Remodel the existing hose and fire-a-matic storage areas, into gear locker areas. Phase II a million one eighty five assuming construction in 2011 including a 10% contingency. Add architectural eng. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 647 design fees, legal fees, and soil geotechnical report done for the building addition, closing costs, and material testing during construction, for and added cost of $182,000 total phase II cost a million three hundred and sixty seven thousand dollars. In looking at it in two phases. I think everyone is aware that the project as defined requires no tax increase and no increase in the annual budget for the fire company. There is an allowance in there based upon their existing mortgage payments that would basically cover the costs of the building addition and renovation. Good time to bid right now. Doing this project in two phases increases the total cost of the project by $156,000 just in construction costs, assuming phase II is done in 2011 if delayed you can assume a cost escalation. Proposed to the Town to bid the project with the renovation portion being the base bid and ask that the Town allow us to basically provide an alternate for the construction of the proposed addition so we have a number to present to the Town to demonstrate costs savings substantial enough to warrant allowing phase II to be completed at the same time. Doing it in phases does not allow us to complete some of the very important items for the project such as the gear turn out area. A project constructed in two phases does create inherent problems for the building and its systems. If done in one project it enables us to have one contractor, one roofing manufacturer system with one warrantee, and enable the fire company to some economies in maintenance on the mechanical systems in the building. Councilman Montesi-What are we doing for drainage… Representative of Queensbury Central-We are outside the limits of the wetlands. The existing site is serviced by a storm drainage system…it goes northeast through the adjacent town property. We will be meeting all the DEC requirements. Supervisor Stec-Is phase I of the nature that if we came back ten years from now to do phase II? Representative Queensbury Central-Yes. Supervisor Stec- I add the two together I get two million two hundred and sixty three thousand, what was the first number? Representative of Queensbury Central-Two point one. Noted annual debt service would be one fifty four. I believe there is enough flexibility in our budget to cover the whole project. Supervisor Stec- In 2013 you are looking at an apparatus…what are the hypothetical numbers going to be? Representative of Queensbury Central-I do not know what a truck will cost. It would be a replacement for 316 Engine/Rescue, the next one to be replaced is the 86 Mac. It is important to note that this is not being done for our use only but for the not for profits to bring the building up to code. We do not charge for the use of our building. Councilman Strough-We are building for not for profits, I don’t care about accommodating them to be honest with you, we are trying to accommodate you, we are trying to provide fire protection for the town. In the mean time if you have available space for not for profit fine but I am not going out of my way to accommodate them. Representative of Queensbury Central-That is a secondary issue completely we are not building space because we want to accommodate not for profit groups we are building space that is needed to operate our fire company. The benefit that the Town ends up receiving on that is there are a lot not for profit groups will then be able to use the space. Supervisor Stec-Going from thirteen point three thousand square feet on the existing building adding a seventy one hundred square foot addition you are increasing the foot print of the building by more than fifty percent but the size of the fleet has not changed and I would guess the size of the membership has not significantly changed. It would be nice to have more storage but a fifty percent increase in the footprint is hard to understand. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 648 Representative of Queensbury Central-We have increased the fleet. There are three new apparatus bays that are proposed and if you look at the existing building we are storing equipment in those bays and it is basically stacked so you cannot actually access to get the equipment out without moving equipment to get to it, that is part of the problem. It is a safety issue. We have a brush truck that is coming that will be placed in the wash bay. Supervisor Stec-Questioned if they were getting rid of the old brush truck? Representative of Queensbury Central-The reason to keep it because we do not have a pickup truck, when we go to a fire call and lay a thousand feet of hose and we have to pick it up and bring it back to the fire house to load back on the truck we have no place to put it safely. We thought it was more cost efficient to keep that truck. Councilman Brewer-In past practice we have always no matter what it is we always bring up the topic of what are you going to do with the old apparatus… Councilman Strough-Questioned the parking lot being done before the construction work… Representative of Queensbury Central-We will access through town’s property next door. It is our intent to repave the north drive, that would be held until the second addition is done. Councilman Strough-Some of the price seem inflated, the storm water permit inspection $7,500? Does DEC do the inspection? Representative of Queensbury Center-We based the cost on another project that was completed with a similar size. DEC will be on site but it has to be inspected by a certified inspector. Councilman Montesi-Soil boring and geological report $8500. and material testing during construction $12,000. why do you have to do that after the soil borings? Representative of Queensbury Center-Because you have to make sure everything is in compliance with the New York State Building Code. We know the numbers are valid. Councilman Strough-What I am worried about is what are we looking for a budget 2014 after we buy a million dollar vehicle if we went ahead with the addition, is it going to scare us? Representative of Queensbury Central-No. If you continue a three percent increase through 2014 you would have a budget of $788,000 if you borrowed $800,000 for the truck for fifteen years at 5% the payments over an annual basis would be seventy six thousand dollars, I do not think that is an unrealistic number. Supervisor Stec-Phase I, $900,000 how much of that is just roof and the roof units, heating and cooling? Representative of Queensbury Central- 60-64% Councilman Strough-There is no grant funding for anything like this? Representative of Queensbury Central-We looked at that, unless you were building a new station there is really not a whole lot out there. Councilman Strough-Spoke to the Fire Co. regarding the use of LED lights and the cost savings. Representative of Queensbury Central-There are advantages to using LED no question, our construction estimate will be added to, to do that. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 649 Councilman Strough-Spoke about a grant for LED lighting… th Town Board will be visiting the fire station for a tour, tentative date March 18 at 7PM. DISCUSSION: JOHN BURKE APARTMENTS REDEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL Supervisor Stec-As of last week we are going with Article 11 which means that the Town th will not be the Supervising Agency…the public hearing on the Pilot will be March 15… Town Counsel Mike Hill-All the questions regarding the supervising agency have been superseded by Liberty’s decision to go under Article 11. The Pilot will reference Article 11 not 5 in the agreement…in an upcoming resolution will rescind any previous authorization or consent to be a supervising agency. Representative of John Burke-Once you do that we will file an amendment to the Articles. Supervisor Stec-The Pilot itself is thirty years then? Representative of John Burke-We have a twelve month construction period. Councilman Brewer-Have you done an analysis of this impact to us. Appraiser Bigelow-We have done an analysis, but if you are going into a Pilot situation really because of negotiation, we analyzed the numbers we have come up with what we feel would be under five eighty one, it is probably not a doable number for them to make their budget work. It comes down to you putting the social value, the worth of the project, I think there is a compromise to be found. They supplied us with the revised budget and under 581 I took the proposed budget taking the interest and principal out, the excess out, I came up with a NOI of 712,000 dollars. I capped that at 9 ½%. I left the taxes in as an expense when I capped that out I was coming up with project value of 7,490,000. equalize that to 76% it would give you an assessment around 5.7 million dollars or 25,000 a unit. Right now with the assessment they are at 13,000 a unit. The extra income that I am showing goes paying for the mortgage that they have. It comes out to where they would be paying at the current tax rates $139,000 in total taxes. Right now they are paying $72,000. there is where a compromise can be found in that in both budgets they have given me they can support a tax payment of $82,000. The problem with the budget that I discovered was you have got even after we took it off the table, the taxes that you paid include the other lot. That is not part of the project you pay for that on your own. So already almost a little over eight thousand dollars more available that we know your budget will support because it is what you gave us. In 09 for just the project parcel you paid seventy two thousand six fifty seven. That works out to three hundred and twenty dollars and eight cents per unit for taxes. If you were to pay the eighty two thousand plus what you have in your budget already it raises that to three hundred and sixty one twenty eight that you would be able to pay per unit. What that does as far as assessment goes is, I took the eighty two thousand ten dollars that you had in your budget and backed into an assessment. I took our current tax rates it is 24.424 per thousand divided that into the eighty two ten, times a thousand means we would have an assessment of three million three hundred and fifty seven thousand seven hundred and sixty three. That is a little over three hundred thousand dollars higher than where you are right now as far as the assessment goes. This is a fourteen point six million dollar project of which eight point six million dollars is being spent on construction. Based on most 581 calculations that I have seen reducing the assessment by forty to sixty percent I wanted to look at comparable projects. Compared Whispering Pines 214 unit project built in 1972, six million four hundred and fifty five thousand two hundred or little over thirty thousand dollars per unit these are market rate projects, Robert Gardens North built in 1979 assessed for seven million seven hundred thousand, two hundred units an assessment of thirty eight thousand five hundred per unit, and Regency Park assessed at eight million six hundred and thirty seven thousand nine hundred that is 296 units that assessment works out to twenty nine thousand one eighty two per unit. Before the 581 originally on yours, you folks were at four point seven million dollars for 227 units that SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 650 assessment was twenty thousand seven hundred and five thousand a unit. In 07 when we did the 581 it reduced it to three million fifty seven thousand which is thirteen thousand four hundred and seventy thousand a unit. In looking at Whispering Pines and especially Regency Park I took an assumption thirty thousand dollars at market rate I took half of it, fifteen thousand dollars a unit assessment times two hundred and twenty seven units gives me an assessment of three million four hundred and five thousand. Take that assessment times our current tax rates would bring a total of eighty three thousand one hundred and sixty three dollars at the current tax rates. It would be a little over ten five as far as increase in what you actually be paying which is basically the lot that you are paying for the eighty seven hundred dollars plus another eleven hundred and fifty three dollars. An increase of fifteen hundred and thirty dollars per unit on your assessment. The assessment only increases really by forty seven thousand two hundred with that eighty five hundred dollars in there. Assessor Ross-Forty two dollars a unit would be the increase in taxes. Appraiser Bigelow-The bottom line is instead of paying a little over seventy two you will pay a little over eighty three. Councilman Strough-You are proposing a little over three hundred and sixty one dollars per unit that would be for thirty one years? Appraiser Bigelow-No, that is the base year and then you guys decide what you want the adjustment to be OCAF or a set adjustment. I would say the municipality would be better off with an OCAF. As far as the amount of the assessment that would change every year. Representative of John Burke-Once you set the PILOT agreement we don’t care what you do with the assessment. Appraiser Bigelow-You just care about the taxes and that is what the PILOT would spell out. Representative of John Burke-The increase would be based upon the base amount of taxes. Assessor Ross-Right now the School gets 72% of the taxes the County gets 18% and then our special districts get 10%. Supervisor Stec-So going forward whether is it OCAF or flat rate as that scales up those percentages would be carried forward. Assessor Ross-Correct. Supervisor Stec-They are paying a flat amount but lets say the school tax goes up. Assessor Ross-The apportionment, what each district gets would have to be the same as it is right now. Town Counsel Hill-We are talking about our special districts are going to be out side of the PILOT. Supervisor Stec-What about County vs. School? Town Counsel Hill-It would be up to us working here at the Town in conjunction with input from the School Dist. and the County to as you say… Attorney O’Connor-Ted told us that our base right now is around 72,000 that 72,000 includes all those special districts. Town Counsel Hill-The way the PILOT is drafted right now is that special districts are handled and paid in the normal fashion based on the assessment. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 651 Councilman Montesi-In order for us to come up with a taxable number for them we got to back out the special districts. It is not 72,000 or 82,000 it is whatever… Attorney O’Connor-The school tax was $53,600. and that you are fixing that is part of the PILOT, the special districts was $19,040. Appraiser Bigelow-That includes the County. Attorney O’Connor-The County was $11,096. Assessor Ross-If you take the total it is 10%. Attorney O’Connor-You will do $11,096.39 and $53,616. is the base amount you are talking about. Appraiser Bigelow-Plus the other parcel which was eighty some hundred bucks. Attorney O’Connor-$8147. add that Assessor Ross-The vacant parcel is on its own. Attorney O’Connor-So we have extra cash in the budget. Representative John Burke-We are going to take the actual taxes less the special districts and that will be our base. Then the special districts will be on top of that. Attorney O’Connor-You are going to put in the fifty three thousand six sixteen and the eleven thousand nine six for the County and then because they had some type of quote in their budget you want to add in what they had in their budget for the two other taxes. Assessor Ross-If you guys decide on the eighty three thousand that you are going to pay for the project not the vacant lot, you take out the seventy two hundred for special districts that gives you a base of seventy five eight. Seventy five eight with the tax rates it would be 80% to the school and 20% to the County that would be the base, seventy five eight. And they you get special district on top of that. Supervisor Stec-Is there an arguable difference as far as establishing the base line in 2010 vs. 2009? Assessor Ross-The school district stayed the same for 08/09 the county was different. I did the apportionment with the current county rate. Supervisor Stec-Does this all happen after the approval of the PILOT? Town Counsel Hill-I believe that it can, these payments are made to the Town and up to the Town to disperse. Attorney O’Connor-You are going to have a base tax of seventy five eight which you will decide how you are whacking up between the county and the school and top of that we will pay the special districts as they are billed on the assessment. You also are going to pay whatever the allowance is on the annual increase which varies or pick an average figure? Supervisor Stec-The OCAF, it is unpredictable. Representative of John Burke-The OCAF doesn’t upset the budget. Supervisor Stec-It is a win, win, if you prefer the OCAF and it sounds like we should prefer OCAF as well. Councilman Montesi-How did you get the 80%, 20%? SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 652 Assessor Ross-Based on the current tax rate. Appraiser Bigelow-If we decide on percentage it is pretty much got to set that way you cannot change it from year to year because you never know the school tax rate might go wild one year or the County might go wild so the relationship might change. Supervisor Stec-Noted Pilot to Pilot vary, Town Counsel Hill-There is no requirement that any specific percentages be established at this point for the distribution of whatever funds come in. Supervisor Stec-Do we need the answer of the percentages for the public hearing? Town Counsel Hill-It depends on who comes to the public hearing and who asks what questions either before the public hearing or during the course of the public hearing. If we do not have answers to those questions there may be folks at the public hearing who say we are not satisfied with no answer to that question tonight. You can go ahead even though you do not have an answer to that question. Supervisor Stec-Is is an option to us to say every year whatever it is that is the proportion those seventy five eight… Town Counsel Hill-You could always take their tax rates and proportion it out every year. Supervisor Stec-To me I think there is a fairness in that. If the County’s grows faster than the school’s does then the County’s share of the seventy five eight will go up. Councilman Montesi-Instead of setting a specific eighty twenty why don’t we leave it that way, that every year we apportion it. Supervisor Stec-We could approve the PILOT Monday night and we will figure how we will dive the seventy five eight later. Town Counsel Hill-The PILOT agreement itself which the Town has the sole authority to approve does not specify nor does it have to specify the terms for the division of the revenue. Supervisor Stec-We need that answer to that question as a practical matter for the public meeting. Every year we will look at all the tax rates except for special districts that would be covered under the PILOT and split them up that way, in a thirty year term that is the fairest way to treat the town and the county and the school. Will there be local labor on this project? Representative of John Burke-We have a contractor will use local subs as much as he can. Attorney O’Connor-My understanding is the base PILOT payment is going to be seventy five thousand eight hundred, plus the special district assessment and they are going to start with a base assessment of three million four hundred and five thousand and that is going to come into play when they have a certificate of occupancy. Appraiser Bigelow-I think we have to look at an adjustment this year because frankly where you are at I think warrants some kind of adjustment. Under 581A you can do a review every year. Right now they are paying seventy two sixty fifty seven. The question becomes is your assessment fair right now and we do under the law we review it every year. Representative of John Burke-We need the Pilot in place before the construction. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 653 Town Counsel Hill-The draft starts about starting the payments, the payments are made th on a quarterly basis, right now for 2010 your school taxes are paid through June 30 of st this year your town and county are paid thorough December 31 of 2010 assuming the taxes have been paid. From the school district’s perspective my question was, assuming the closing takes place and the transfer occurs around, May, June am I correct in understanding that the first payment would be made in July? With the Town and County st taxes being paid through December 31 of this year that a payment made in July, it should be a payment that is made with regards to the school taxes rather than to Town and County taxes. It is the school districts tax year that is going to end at the end of June and they are essentially going to be down on revenue so to speak for the remainder of this calendar year unless that July payment is really geared primarily towards the school district I think. Attorney O’Connor-The July payment would be half of the school tax based upon the 80% and then the first payment in the first quarter of 2012 which would be one quarter going forward. Supervisor Stec-We want to make sure that we cover the school in 2010 … Town Counsel Hill-Will work on that in the next few days and speak to the school district and specify the dates for payments. Representative of John Burke-We will have a model unit if anybody would like to see what the finished product will look like. DISCUSSION: TOURISM WEB SITE Councilman Strough-Councilman Metivier and I have been working several months with some of the local businessmen and women and the Lake George Regional Chamber of Commerce. Queensbury businesses are not being promoted like Lake George is and other places, other localities have flyers but Queensbury does not have anything. The Lake George Chamber of Commerce has made a proposal, if interested they will come in and speak to the details. They would design and coordinate the process of getting theme cards for Queensbury. Promoting Queensbury and Queensbury businesses. These cards will be on racks on the thruway and other tourism areas and tourist centers. They also want to facilitate a brand development an identity for Queensbury. They would identify where in Queensbury we have niches and build on that. They would design and launch a web page along the lines of the assets of our Town. They liked what I did, the assets of our town, for example we are set amid the most scenic vistas, we are the entry of the Adirondack Park, we are the north center for health and sports enthusiast, the rock climbing gym, West Mt. Ski Center, hiking and biking proposal, canoeing and kayaking proposals, park and horseback riding, whitewater rafting the Dome, this is just a draft, the theme oriented things would be on our website and on those cards. The shopping pleasures for Queensbury, family fun things to do the history of the area, restaurant and dinning facilities, park and recreation facilities, local popular events all of that and it is just a draft, would go on the web page. To develop a website is ten to twelve thousand dollars just for that but they would do it for us. They want to coordinate all phases, we will have our own independent web site plus all the links we will be represented at all the conventions. Estimated cost $31,000 per year. Board agreed to have them make a presentation at a workshop on March 22, 2010 if available. RESOLUTION ADJOURNING TOWN BOARD MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 133. 2010 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Tim Brewer WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. Ronald Montesi SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-08-2010 MTG. #10 654 RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its Town Board Meeting. th Duly adopted this 8 day of March, 2010 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Montesi, Mr. Strough, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Stec NOES: None ABSENT: Mr. Metivier Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury