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2011-03-23 SP MTG#9 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 430 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING MTG.#9 MARCH 23, 2011 RES. 126 7:00 p.m. NORTH QUEENSBURY FIRE DEPARTMENT CLEVERDALE, NEW YORK TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT SUPERVISOR DANIEL STEC COUNCILMAN ANTHONY METIVIER COUNCILMAN RONALD MONTESI COUNCILMAN JOHN STROUGH COUNCILMAN TIM BREWER TOWN COUNSEL BOB HAFNER DAVE DECKER PE. 1.1 PUBLIC HEARING-ESTABLISHMENT OF WASTEWATER DISPOSAL DISTRICT NO. 1 (ROCKHURST) NOTICE SHOWN PUBLICATION DATE: March 11, 2011 Supervisor Stec-Good evening everyone and welcome to the Special Town Board Meeting of the rd Queensbury Town Board it is seven o’clock on Wednesday, March 23 2011. I would ask everyone to raise and join Councilman Strough on our Pledge of Allegiance. (Pledge conducted) Good evening everyone again, and thank you for attending tonight. The purpose of this meeting is to conduct a public hearing on the proposed establishment of a Wastewater Disposal District No.1 for Rockhurst. First I will ask the Town’s Engineer that has been our consultant on this project Dave Decker to give us introduction of the history of this, it has been going on you will see a slide or a sheet that he has got up there. We started work on this in 2006 it has been a long winding process and I will let him get into that that the particulars as an introduction for everybody and then we will open it for public comment. Dave if you would grab a microphone please. Engineer Dave Decker-Ok, as the Supervisor indicated my name is Dave Decker I wear a couple of hats . I am the Director of the Lake George Watershed Collation and I have been before the Board various times and I have met a few of you folks as well. The purpose of being here tonight is to discuss a program that was sponsored by and developed in coordination with the Watershed Collation and Plan for Lake George as well as the Town of Queensbury. As the Supervisor said we started this process back in around 2006, we recognized over the years that the water quality has declined in and around various areas of the lake is in part due to the non point source pollution that flows from and comes from various waste sources, one of which is septic waste. So, several around the lake over the years have been sewer. While we recognize from a financial standpoint and an engineering planning standpoint that we are not going to be able to sewer every place around the lake. Capital money is just not there to do it. But at the same time we need to focus on and make sure we are putting our best foot forward in regards the operation of existing systems as well as other means to protect the water quality. Over the years we have noticed significant raise of algae blooms and various measures that scientist look at when looking at the water quality of Lake George that indicate to us that the nutrient levels in the lake are increasing. So, one of the elements that contribute to that is the flow from septic, onsite septic systems. So, back in 2006 we approached the town and indicated that there were some grant monies available by which to advance the formation of an onsite or waste management district in the town. Now, what is that, it is very akin to other special districts that are out there be it a lighting district, be it a fire district the town has other sewer districts, water districts and so on. This is same thing except there is not a lot of moving parts to it, it is actually a district that oversees and provides education and technical input to the property owners. So, the why the district is we are looking at this to form the district to in fact help improve the reliability and operational state of the onsite septic system that are around the lake and in particular in Rockhurst. Rockhurst happens to be the first, it a relatively small entity we can walk before we run. There are other areas in the Town that have expressed an interest similar to Rockhurst and so we started the process back in 2006 actually. I was looking back at my calendar we actually had our first public information meeting here at the firehouse back it was a Saturday morning I believe in 2006. So, that initial informational session was to provide the Board the input from the public as well as to inform them and they took an action back in the fall of 2006 to authorize the preparation of what is called the map, plan and report. The map, plan and report some of you have picked up tonight is a document as it SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 431 states it provides a map and it provides a plan and an engineer’s report as to how the septic district might operate, the need for it the reason why, the method that it would operate under as well as putting together an engineering estimate of the plan and how that would operate. In addition the map portion of it if you will, is a map that outlines the boundaries of the proposed district. Those have been posted town’s website and also on the collation’s website. We then held several other public information meetings again a year later we were here on a Sunday morning in July I think it was. Again, we have been before the Town Board on several meetings at the town hall. So, a little bit of the history as to why and where and how we got here. What is the focus of the district, as I mentioned the primary focus is to increase the reliability and operational stability of the onsite systems. It is also to provide technical assistance to those of us that have systems like this whether it be how to best operate them how to maintain them where they should be sited, if something is going wrong with them how can that be fixed how can that be maintained and also to provide us information on how to install and use some preventative maintenance measures that will increase the operational capabilities. At the same time the premise of a district is to include an annual inspection as well as a pump out of the system every three years. If you look at any of the technical journals its is proposed and suggested and recommended that a septic system in order to operate properly to extend its life should be pumped out periodically and periodically means at least every three years. You can pump out more frequently than that but certainly every three years is in the literature has been demonstrated to be worthy of performance seems to level off. So, that is one of the priorities and objectives of forming a district itself. So, increased performance by inspection and providing some better maintenance measurers also providing technical assistance to the home owner who is operating the system as well as to inspect and maintain them and pump them out once every three years. Once the district is formed assuming the Board takes an action to do that thereafter looking at calendar wise would be this spring, this summer, would be an inspection all the systems in the district and right now there is one hundred and twenty I believe a hundred and twenty parcels that are included in the proposed district. Essentially you would have an engineer or someone like an engineer to come out with technical capability to assess system, find out where it is. Some of us I know, I was here in 1972 as a much younger engineer we did what is called a sanitary survey were we did a dye test of each of the facilities around the lake and we were surprised well not surprised, we were I guess surprised at the fact that some folks had no idea where the system was. Because they had been put in years and years ago they operated properly so the adage if it isn’t broke don’t fix it that is where they operated. So, part of this will be data gathering figuring where the systems are. Again, providing some technical assistance to the homeowner as well as schedule for a pump out. So, that will all happen during the first year and each year thereafter the system will be inspected just to make sure that it is working reliably as you see fit as well as to coordinate the pump outs once every three years. How much is this going to cost? It has got to be on everybody’s mind, it is usually a key factor when someone looks at these things. As mentioned there are two grants that are at work that were awarded to the town to advance the formation and operation of the district. One was a fifteen thousand dollar grant from the Environmental Protection Fund through the Department of State and a second was a similar one hundred thousand dollar grant from the Department Environmental Conservation also as proceeds from the Environmental Protection Fund. In the map, plan and report if you were to read through in detail there is a cost projection in arrears as to what it is going to cost. The first year of operation we are expecting it to cost well it will be costing ninety seven dollars per property owner per year. In years two thorough five we went through and we basically increased and what is driving this is the price of the pump outs. So, we increased the budget and said look we cannot expect the pump outs to be the said year in and year out so we added an amount for inflation. So, the project costs for year two through five as you see and years five through ten is beyond. We did not project beyond that quite frankly because as we get into this and start operating we want to be able to stand back and give some proper figures. So, beyond ten years at this point I am not sure we have reliable numbers for projection. So, that is where we are in the first ten years of operation employing the use of these grants throughout those ten years. Other questions that come up in terms of some of the questions that I have heard, what happens if we find a system that is substandard? This is not a process to set up to finger point and to bring some type of regulatory actions to any of the property owners. It is very simply to raise the level of operations out there. It always is and always has been and always will be the ultimate responsibility of the property owner to maintain his system. This is simply an assistance to do that. How are we going to do that in terms of a more economical way quite frankly we contract as the town contracts for pump outs once every three years. If there are a hundred and twenty systems out there and they put this out for public bidding they are probably going to be a much better price per pump out than any one of us would individually. That is what we are anticipating based on what we talk to several of contactors in the area they agree if they had the ability to go out and pump five, six, seven, eight units at a time the price would be much lower than they had to run out one time with a half empty truck and pump your system out. The economies of scale come into play here when we can physically contract each year for four of these things to be pumped out on a regular basis and the contractor knows he is going to get an annual amount of these, so on and so forth. So, it is one of the ways that SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 432 you will receive and recognize the economies of scale. So, I am going to be quiet for a couple of seconds I am sure that I generated some questions. Supervisor Stec-Thank you Dave. What we will do now we will start taking some public comment if there are questions I will leave it to Dave if he wants to jump in and answer them on the fly or if he wants to collect them as we receive some comment and answer them in that way. We have got about fifty or sixty people here which is a great turn out. What I would like to do first is assuming everyone here isn’t all residing in the proposed district I am sure that there are other people that are just curious. What I would like to do is give the people that live in the proposed district the first bite at the apple to ask any questions or make any comments and we will do that first and then we will get to anyone that lives outside the district, second. So, if there is anyone that wants to comment or ask a question raise your hand I will call on people one at a time if you come to the microphone if you would state your name and address for the record, these microphones not only amplify or they are suppose to amplify but more importantly they record for the purpose of the towns record. So, if there is anyone that would like to comment or ask a question we will start taking that now. Anybody? Yes, Sir, come to the microphone. Thank you, Sir. Mr. Art Norton-My name is Art Norton. I am in a unique position on there that I have property out on Rockhurst without a house. We bought the property in 1960 Dean Howland and Bill McDowell and we have been there ever since. We do have docks. We do not have septic system we take it all home. We have a port a potty so we don’t have it. My main question is from what I can gather on this we would not be, have any cost to us because we do not have a septic system. Is that correct? Engineer Decker-Again, It is really up to the Town Board on how they set the regulations for the purpose of setting the budget it only included those properties with dwellings on them. Supervisor Stec-We do have the flexibility if we wanted to because I think what you are pointing out is very reasonable if you do not have a septic system that needs maintenance because you do not have one do you need to pay? Mr. Norton-I guess also there are holding tanks in some locations. They do say on page 8 of the budget ..participants including property owners of a single family dwelling for the first year of project costs. Then just for the interest I was involved somewhat with Dean at the time the buildings were started with the development on the point. Which I understand at one point was an island. But, anyway, the first group of buildings that do not have much more than anywhere from fifty up to maybe ninety feet the septic systems are all between the road and the house. The drain fields are all under the road is that what you understand? Supervisor Stec-What we know just from our past experience dealing with septic variance request just on Rockhurst that there is a lot of that where cars are parking on top of them or they may in fact be on the road, I do not know how many but I am sure more than a couple. Mr. Norton-I observed just an observation that those probably are giving more problem as far as seepage into the lake than the septic system. But other than that thank you. Supervisor Stec-No, thank you Sir. Any body else would like to comment or ask questions? Yes, Sir. Mr. Tom Sargent-My name is Tom Sargent I reside at 59 Rockhurst Road. My wife and I have owned that property for thirty five years since 1976 so we have seen a lot of what has been going on in terms of the sewer district. My position on this I am for a wastewater collection district not a management district. I have always been for that. Just to go into a little bit of history about this area in, 1956 the Department of Health approved the septic systems that were on Rockhurst. They basically as was stated in our area consisted of seven hundred and fifty gallon or thousand gallon tanks with leach tanks, I do not think most of them were in the road. There are some places where the town has paved the road over, there only supposed to be sixteen feet of right of way there. But, they are on the residences property. Those are five by ten by four leach tank structures, they are reinforced concrete top with a hatch for maintenance. I have seen some of the them, people actually opened them up and cleaned them out. So, we are not talking about fifty five gallon drums or gravel pits with a pipe in them. We are talking about system that were approved by the Department of Health at one point in time, currently does not meet todays standards. So, that is what existed there since 1956 it exists there today it is approaching sixty years old so obviously we would like to do something about it. Starting in the 1960’s there started to be a movement to get a sewer system. In 1977 the voters approved a County Sewer System, in 1979 I voted for a Queensbury System and that was both North Queensbury and South Queensbury. The vote was a positive for the system, it turns out the people in the South were slightly SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 433 negative and the people in the North were positive and the whole thing carried. Ironically, today all the sewers in the South you do not know if any of them work right. That was supposed to be a twenty three million dollar system there was fifteen point six million dollars in Federal money allocated arranged by Senator Moynihan and Representative Solomon, great guys. That was tied into a County System I think there was a total of twenty million dollars allocated in Federal money. That was passed but soon challenged on a legal basis, and you know the history of that. Meanwhile while those challenges were going on stuff, activities or projects were completed in Lake George, in Bolton and in Hague and we have gotten nothing basically. Fast forward to 2003, it was talked about that whole time, I was less than thirty years old, had two kids, with the school, graduated from college, they are working. In that time period there was the County came up with ten options. One was the original option but that was discounted because of the Great Lakes Basin charter problems you cannot transport water from one basin to another. There were thoughts of going to Pickle Hill to buying Dunhams Bay discharging into the wetland there ENCON put a nix on that and the final two options I believe were some sort of community system or septic tank management system or no option. Finally you know, there was this money sitting there and the Town had to give it away basically they could not do anything with it. I think at that time there was seven million dollars left.. Supervisor Stec-That is about right. Mr. Sargent-So, that brings us up to the current date, as was outlined. I guess when I first saw this I said well, gee there must be a real need for this for this management to propose going forward with some kind of a district. So, I started looking around looking for data. What I came up with the Darwin Freshwater Institute and they sent me the coliform monitoring reports for the last five years and it turns out, and these reports are based on where they know there are problems. It turns out Queensbury is not a place where they got problems. The State guidelines are the five samples if you have a twenty four count for overall coliform two hundred fecal than you should not be having swimming contact recreation. I went through and added up all the Queensbury sites and it came up to over five years all sights a hundred and thirty five and nineteen point seven for those two figures. The maximum for any site sampling in Queensbury was thirteen forty and one twenty which does not even approach what the State mandates or allows for contact recreation swimming. So, I am saying where really is the problem? If you thinks that, generally the whole lake was good but there are some bad boys, East Brook in Lake George thirty nine hundred and two twenty August of last year. Cooks culvert in Dresdon twenty one thousand and ninety two hundred, Saw Mill Bay in Bolton, ten thousand six hundred and fifteen th hundred, and my favorite Shepard Park south of the pier July 6 2009 thirty eight thousand four hundred and fourteen thousand two hundred and note on the side sewage spill. Then there are others equally high. Right where I am lets see Sandy Bay was the wetlands were fifty two and nineteen in 2009 and the Moorings last year this must be a bad piece of data basically but is says one in six the comment several boats a lot of people, person ..three ducks.. In the readings for Warner Bay are almost as equally as low the high reading was nowhere near where this proposed district is located. So, I am saying where is the science here? Where is the basis for this? You guys have other figures from the Fresh Water Institute doesn’t? Supervisor Stec-Dave if you would like to? Grab a mic. Engineer Decker-If you are done Tom..if you were define failing systems simply by coliform that certainly would be a measure and you are right Queensbury would not qualify. Mr. Sargent-I also have figures for phosphorus. Engineer Decker-What we are looking at here is an area Rockhurst being one of them that has very little soils substantially bedrock underneath and for a septic system to operate properly you need a substantial amount of soil and you need distance to the water, neither of which do we have here. So, while we are not seeing blatant failures come bubbling up on the surface which is generally what you see when you are talking about coliform failure, you are talking about failing systems that literally are flys are flying around and septic smells and those kinds of things those are what generate those kinds of figures. But failure that is in the classical kind of sense but failure to the extent that they are in fact leaching nutrients into the water is something that you don’t necessarily see and we don’t do, quite frankly that is one of the things that we don’t do in this lake we do not do a lot of near shore sampling. Most of the sampling that is done by …I am very familiar with it because we fund that sampling as well is deep water. Most of their sampling is deep water sampling they sample for the last thirty years they have been sampling in about eight spots primarily. Chris Navitsky is here I know from the representing the Waterkeeper and the fund and he is probably more knowledgeable in that particular. But that is where their sampling is done primarily in the deep water areas. You are right in terms if we were to define a failing system by the number of hits we were seeing in coliform we would not be a candidate SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 434 that is really not what we are looking for. If we had those kind of failing systems quite frankly those are something above and beyond and that is not just going to be fixed just by simply a pump out. What we are looking to do is raise the reliability and the maintainability of the system through the district. Mr. Sargent-I agree that they are basically going for the hot spots. This is not a basin wide, scientific but it is not showing any problem maybe we ought to be sampling before we go into some other district situation to make sure we have got a baseline to know exactly if there is a problem, first of all, and what is the level and what is the improvement that we expect by spending this money? There has to be a cost benefit analysis done here. Engineer Decker-Let me point out part of the question here is we are not saying that Rockhurst has a history of failing systems, what we are saying is it is a candidate we want to improve what is here and quite frankly by providing this fund we think that we, because, again the cost of operating this system if you are operating and maintaining them properly would be significantly more than the annual cost of what we are talking about here. If you were to pump out your system every three years I think a pump out is what probably two to three hundred dollars going rate. Mr. Sargent-One seventy eight, I pump my every year. A lot of people my neighbors pump theirs every year. .. Engineer Decker-You are right if everybody in Rockhurst was in fact doing that or every other place around the lake there probably would not be a need for this kind of thing but we know that this is not the case. Mr. Sargent-Why don’t we take a survey before we just into this? Spend fifty bucks send a mailing out saying do you know where you system is? Do you know what its configuration is? When was the last time you pumped it? Before we get into this in perpetuity situation. Engineer Decker-Those are good points, I am not debating here with you I really just want to point out trying to answer your questions. Mr. Sargent-…I also looked at the Citizens Statewide Lake Assessment Program, Darrin Freshwater Institute pointed me toward the Lake George Association we have a link to this. They test through citizen involvement; they test lakes throughout the State. ENCON has only seven people that naturally work in this program. I think the LGA does it for here. They compile information on clarity, phosphorus, chlorophyll, color of PH calcium I zeroed in on phosphorus, because that is always the thing that septic tanks supposedly put in the lake. Sampling in Harris Bay in Warner Bay over the last four or five years, Harris Bay nine parts per billion, deep and shallow, Warner Bay six and seven deep and shallow. That is compared to Lake George Village which is nine and thirteen. An unproductive lake is rated as being less than ten parts per billion, which both those things are. Unproductive means not growing things, it is a clear clean lake. Lake wide they gave me figures for 2004 from 2008 how many samples were less than ten points per billion or parts per billion? 2004 sixty seven percent 2005 seventy nine percent, 2006 eighty two percent, 2007 ninety one percent, 2008 ninety six percent so the phosphorus is going down in the lake . I would like to think that is because I stopped using phosphorus fertilizer on the lawn. But I think it is because a lot of the activities to reduce storm water dumping directly into the lake what the conservation groups have been pushing. So, just in summary and basically they rated the Harris Bay site which is the closest good condition no long term trend apparent of degradation. So, basically in summary a septic tank management district I feel the problem is not apparent we ought to at least document the problem if there is one. Although the data points to self management is working we know we have spills and there are hot lines from the LGA to the Daren Fresh Water Institute to the Park Commission to the Town . If somebody is having a problem and somebody reports it I think somebody comes out right away that is my experience and I have not seen any lately, maybe you guys have some figures on that. There is no base line data and so we cannot determine that it is cost effective and I think the money would be much better spent on storm water management. Take Rockhurst Road, every time it rains everything goes into the lake. Everything from dog droppings, cigarette butts, dripping from cars, I think we would get a much better bang for the buck for taking care of that. Or control the geese; you know we have twenty geese swimming around. Of course the cost our taxes have gone up sixty seven percent sense 2005 I have a property down in Clifton Park that has gone up twelve percent for the same time and is going to add another two hundred dollars per year. Councilman Montesi-Which taxes? Mr. Sargent-Town and County taxes the tax bill that I get in January. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 435 Councilman Montesi-The town we have not have a town tax Supervisor Stec-We do now. Mr. Sargent-Well I mean, somehow that the town is part of the county somehow my bill has been Councilman Montesi-The number sixty seven percent is troublesome because this is the first year we have had a tax and it is sixty five cents on a thousand. Mr. Sargent-Well we have had Crandall Library we have had a lot of things going up. Councilman Montesi-Some of those things we cannot control we control Supervisor Stec-But your point is you are concerned about taxes. Mr. Sargent-Right. And this would be another two hundred dollars a year basically. Maybe some other taxpayers pay a hundred but taxpayers in general are paying two hundred a year per property for this. Supervisor Stec-That is why we are here tonight is to hear what you all have to say about it. I do not live here I do not have a dog in this fight. Mr. Sargent-I am against the management but I want a wastewater disposal district and am willing to pay for it. As I said before these system are close to sixty years old they are pretty much fine, some of they have mechanically failed and put holding tanks in but in terms of polluting the lake I do not see any evidence and the science does not show it but I would to move forward with some kind of a community system. A suggestion is maybe we put up small diameter pressurized line down Rockhurst use pumps meter it so the people that use it the most pay the most. Move it up the hill, you guys have a piece of land there that nobody can use why don’t you trade it with the State for something further up the hill? Supervisor Stec-I am going to guess here I am going to be a little sarcastic but it is not a, it is probably not, I am probably not that far off base to trade the property with the State would probably require a State Constitutional Amendment. Mr. Sargent-Yes it would, it would take a couple of years. Supervisor Stec-Which is two consecutive, votes on two different State Legislatures and a mandatory referendum. Mr. Sargent-It has been done, it has been done other places in the Adirondacks they trade land all the time with the paper companies. The State has got to get a little more, we can’t solve these problems. Supervisor Stec-If we can’t help you we do not want to answer for them, we got our own headaches to answer for, I hear you though Tom. Mr. Sargent-Or we could go up further and maybe negotiate with a landowner up there which is even further away from the lake and put a drainage system in. Councilman Montesi-We just have to be careful to not take water out of the basin. Mr. Sargent-Right, this would all come right back in the wetlands in Sandy Bay at the end of Sandy Bay is the world’s greatest filter it is unbelievable the water that comes out of there… Also I think we ought to be looking at new technology so some of these systems that we can’t put a central system in then lets take a look at one of these newer devices that have come on the market. We may have to allow variances to replace in place. If these systems have worked for sixty years why can’t we just replace them if they start to fail, replace the soil, replace the system. Supervisor Stec-What we have been doing historically, I mean you have asked for what data we may have and I do not know what Dave has handy but I can tell you antidotally from the twelve years that I have had on the Board, and every one, John got eight, Tim has twelve and the two guys are on your fourth well this is Ron’s second go around. We have seen a lot of septic variances to the Town Board of Health on Rockhurst over our ten years and more often than not we land on we would feel better if you went to a holding tank. In most cases most people are like fine I can live with that. Although there are issues with holding tanks because you know, depending on how you read the law there are some people that say well that is for seasonal residences only but we are trying to maximize your use and enjoyment SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 436 of the property that we all pay too much taxes on you know. We are trying to maximize your enjoyment out of what is yours but what we have been doing as the Town Board of Health over the years is encouraging and pushing towards holding tanks. I think Mr. Norton’s point is a good one if you do not have any septic on your property at all or if you are on a holding tank i.e. you do not require a inspection or pump out if the law will allow us to structure that way where you do not pay that would makes all the sense in the world to me. But, we have been not going with lets replace the soil and replace this, because the lots on Rockhurst, one of the questions that you had asked me before, Tom, was you know why just Rockhurst and why not other the rest of Assembly Point and Cleverdale up here and there is a lot to be said to take baby steps and you start small and get your feet wet no one wants to be the guinea pig but the thing is the bang for the buck you look at the pure residential density we have on that very narrow peninsula, you know. I think there are issues all over the lake up and down from Ticonderoga to Lake George Village with septic but in Queensbury you know it is a small high density if you are going to look at someplace that to me makes intuitive sense to look there first especially with all the variances we have seen on vary small lots. Mr. Sargent- Intuitively I agree with you but all I am saying is lets’ put some science to it, all I have heard is look at all those places. That is the way I felt actually when I first moved there the only reason I bought I heard a sewer system was coming. Supervisor Stec-Well it was people that were involved in that fight are not here tonight. Councilman Montesi-You said that Senator Moynihan was a great guy and he was, when the County was involved in the first sewer district I was one of the guys that visited with him and the first time we went down there, there as a County Board Senator Moynihan looked us all over and he said are there any Democrats here and two guys raised their hands he said I know you are Democrats you are on my staff. The next time we went we brought Mr. Flacke with us. Mr. Sargent-Thank you very much sorry to take so much time. Supervisor Stec-Thanks, nice to put a face with a name. Engineer Decker-I just want to clarify a little bit about the science it happened to be brought up. One of the things I guess we need to recognize is that in reference to the funds for…long and very methodical. The one …if you will is sodium we talk about phosphorus we talk about nutrients ..those are basically taken up, the good news is this lake has a very high assimilated capacity. It is a clean lake. The one thing that all the science will agree on if you would look at their, I should have brought some of their charts but there has been thirty years of steady and unending increase in the level of sodium. It had doubled every twelve years. We do not see any end to that, that is the problem. So, you are looking at, widely use sodium is a measure of where this lake is because it is not a single…so if you look at the true testing again we want to get back to the point where remember back from science class back in chemistry and biology we did a thing called …we are in the business of keeping a clean lake clean. We do not ever want to get to the point where we go over that one drip and now we have a dirty lake. Fine undo that un-ring that bell it is not where we want to be. This is the first step among the many this is a step and storm water certainly is important but sodium is what is measured right now and looked at measured on where this lake is headed and where it is failing. To use phosphorus’s and nitrogen is interesting but the problem is you mask it isn’t even the proper way to because of the cumulative..It is a clean lake and our job is to keep it clean and we do not want to fight the battle now we are down here and we didn’t take the preventative measurer steps that we could have now twenty years from now and go back say oh my god I should have done that. You can’t I do not think that you can afford to do that for the sake of the property values or anything else. The focus here is preventative as to oppose to waiting for something happening and come ring the bell…. Mr. Sargent-I am not a chemist …but …from the road salt Engineer Decker-No question. Mr. Sargent-Thanks for not putting salt on the road Engineer Decker-Sodium, road salt is a great source of but it is not the only source there is as much sodium coming from septic tanks leaching into the ground as come from the salt on the roads. If it were the case there are many towns around here that don’t use salt, Queensbury being one of them. That were the case we would have much lower sodium levels here in and around the water and we are not seeing that. So it has got to be coming from somewhere. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 437 Councilman Strough-Seeing all the salt coming down from Route 9 and Lake George Village… Supervisor Stec-Is there anyone else that would like to comment, please come to the microphone please. Ms. Pat Lambert-Good evening to you all. My name is Pat Lambert and I reside at 117 Rockhurst Road. I thank you for the chance to voice my views. I am very concerned as anyone about the quality of Lake George. It has been my home for thirty five years I along with my children, my grandchildren and my great grandchildren when they visit we do drink the water at Rockhurst directly from the lake. We also swim and fish there regularly. So, I hope it warms up a real soon. Councilman Brewer-I think we all agree on that. Ms. Lambert-I oppose this initiative in its current form because it looks, smells and tastes and feels like a little tax increase. Arbitrarily government regulations with no homeowners protection that I can see. I am not a lawyer or an engineer but this proposal insinuates that regulators and bureaucrats care more about the lake than the residents. I do believe that all the residents on Rockhurst and all over the lake are very concerned with the quality of the lake. I find it insulting that you all think that way. I am on a fixed income and I pay too much tax already. Much of what is proposed here can and should be done without additional taxes and bureaucracy called for in this proposal. The proposal needs to be revamped to provide incentives for more frequent pump outs which I pump out and homeowners initiatives could be for their inspections and repairs if necessary. Even though we pay an exorbitant amount of taxes we have one of the roughest roads in the area I think. And one of my neighbors mentioned no street lights. But thank you anyway because I just feel that I wanted to address this meeting and I look forward to an amended proposal that does not raise my taxes and maintains and improves the quality of the lake. Thank you. Supervisor Stec-Thank you Ms. Lambert. Councilman Brewer-Can I make one comment? This is not Tim Brewers initiatives or any single person here I think it is a cumulative initiative to see if it is wanted to see if we can help do it I do not think anybody here is trying to force anything down any ones throat. We are just exploring and this has been brought up many times over the years for the quality of the lake. I think we have all have a common interest in the lake but we are not trying to push it down anything down anybodies throat. I do not want you to have that thought in your mind. It is up to the people here as far as I am concerned. Ms Lambert-But I think all the people are where you would do something but it is meetings we have I went through records and we do have it on the, in 2007 and there was a meeting, there were meetings before that I have been here thirty five years I think there were two or three other years that I don’t remember the exact years. But it goes on we have a meeting we discuss it and then we do not hear anything. I think at the last meeting there was a neighbor on Rockhurst that made that comment, he has since died and I wish he was here tonight, and so ok, we have to do something about it. We have to inspect them and have people pump out or whatever but its meetings we go to and I think a lot of us are old and are tired of them. Councilman Brewer-Thank you. Supervisor Stec-You are welcome, thank you. Is there anyone that would like to address the Board, yes sir, in the back. Mr. Bret Peek-My name is Bret Peek I live at 108 Rockhurst Road and I the first part of the meeting you were talking to Art about the port a potties and holdings tanks. I am one of the people that your variance changed my septic to a holding tank. I do not know if it feels like it to anybody else but it feels like it to me that your main purpose here is to go in and check these tanks out and shut them down and turn everybody into a holding tank situation, one by one. I do not know if that is true or not but it sure feels like it to me. I propose and I have one of the bigger lots on Rockhurst up at the other end and I tried we designed four separate septic units before the Board and they shot everyone down and basically at the end I said what would you let me put in? It was holding tanks. It almost sounds like that is what you are trying to put everybody toward at some point. At that point you have to have your tanks pumped, it could be every three weeks it could be every four weeks so to me it seems like there are better systems out there that could be provided for these small lots and even the bigger ones that if the Town would allow it you know it probably could be done over a course of a certain amount of years as the tanks fail. I do not have any problem with the inspections but I think that, it seems like everything is going to be pushed toward this holding tank situation at some point. Then everybody is not going to SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 438 have to worry about ninety seven dollars every three years it is going to be ninety seven dollars every three weeks. So, that is all I really have to say. Supervisor Stec-That is a very fair point. Thank you. Anyone else like to comment or ask questions? Yes Ma’am. Ms. Lynn McCollister- Lynn McCollister I live on Seelye Road I wonder why Seelye Road is being included with Rockhurst? I am a forty year plus year round resident on Seelye Road on Warner Bay and yes it is good to address possible septic problems around the lake because everybody here loves the lake and we want to keep it clean we want to be able to live our lives here. My first thing here is why did the Queensbury Town Board stage a public meeting now? It is not fair to the residents to have a public meeting in March when you know that seasonal folks are not here and many year round folks are in the sunny south, lucky them. July would have been an appropriate time if you the Board really want all the people who live here to be included in this informational meeting. Also in regard to different septics the Town of Queensbury should have on file all the tools that you need to locate septic systems that have been improved and have been following the new septic rules. So, there is probably a much smaller number septic systems that would need to have the, go over with the owners to find out information. Using myself as an example about four years ago we renovated our home and you required us to get an engineer to locate and design our system to the tune of twenty five thousand plus so it would be acceptable to the Town of Queensbury. We were happy to do that. We have probably an acre and a half of land. Also your Town Engineer had to give the final ok too. So as far as we are concerned we do not need to be on a list to be checked. Also, we have always been diligent for the past forty years to pump out our system in a systematic manner. I am sure that there are many others here are like my husband and I and that should be taken into consideration. Also, we believe the Town of Queensbury would have less problems today regarding septic systems if for the past number of years the Town would have stuck to their septic regulations and not kept handing out variances regarding different septic systems. My other notation is from page 9 of the plan which says schedule of implementation. My question is are we as all the homeowners in this district one going to be able to vote yes or no to this at some point in time. What does part of permission referendum dot dot dot thirty days mean? Supervisor Stec-I can answer that and Bob you correct me if I am wrong. The answer for this district is the same as it is for any other district that the Town has ever created or expanded. The Town Board has the authority to create the district it is subject to permissive referendum which there is a process as defined in law as to how a permissive referendum works and if there are enough people that sign a petition to force it to go to referendum it would go to a referendum. I should also add that permissive referendum the Town Board at its option can always decide without a petition process to make it a mandatory referendum. To say we do not want to go to a petition we will just put it on the ballot. I will also say that in the twelve years that I have been on the Board, and a couple dozen districts that I have done I have never seen one go to a vote. I think the sense of the Board to the point that Tim Brewer made earlier is we typically do not move forward on a district if the public if we do not have a strong sense that the public wants it. I do not have a dog in this fight, I do not drink the water here I do not swim here it is not my property value, we are trying to do the right thing. If the public doesn’t want it, doesn’t value it, doesn’t believe in it, it ends here. But we do not get to this discussion without setting the public hearing. If I could as an aside, if I could monolog for a minute, one of the things that I have observed in my time in public service is if it appears on an agenda for discussion we already guilt of deciding we are going to do it or we are not going to do it but there is a process that we need to follow and the process is the same as it has been for decades, we have a public hearing. If the public, if we get the sense today in our twelve month operation that we run at the town that this isn’t something that the public wants to do and we are going to continue going the way we have gone it might not make some of the environmentalist in the room very happy but you know that the five of us are practical people and I am not looking to force anything down anybodys throat. I have my opinions on whether or not a hundred dollars a year is a good deal or not a good deal but it is not my hundred dollars. So, we will take public comment. But, that should answer your question, permissive referendum is a process where we could form the district tonight there is a resolution in our packet we can conduct this public hearing, close the public hearing and vote on it tonight and if no one follows through on the permissive referendum process and turns in a valid petition in the next thirty days the district is formed. Or, we could say tonight let’s make it a mandatory referendum and then I am going to get a hundred questions as to who can and can’t vote and we will have the whole East Lake Georg Village who can or can’t vote debate again and I do not have that have the answer to that question tonight and we will not answer it tonight. But, I think that is very unlikely I think if we do not have a strong sense that the public wants to move forward it ends tonight or at least it gets shelved tonight, we will not act on it. Hopefully that answers your questions. Ms. McCollister-How do we request of you to have a meeting such as this in July? SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 439 Supervisor Stec-Now this is, we have had as Dave pointed out we have had meetings in the last four years we have had a lot of meetings. The State is sitting on a hundred thousand dollar grant that basically I will paraphrase Dave, but they said hey are you going to use this grant money because if you are not going to use this grant money we want to take it back. So, we are on borrowed time with the State. Again, we are a twelve month operation we have other projects on our plate I understand that, but again , it has been a four year process this is not something that we cooked up last week. I understand that there are a lot of people that don’t live here but we did send out a letter to all the property owners and in that letter I am sure we said that we would take written comments and I know that at the last Town Board meeting when Mr. Salvador asked me if we would take written comment I said like we do for every public hearing the answer is yes and must have said it five or six times for Mr. Salvador’s benefit. Darleen did we get any written comment for tonights public hearing? Town Clerk Darleen Dougher-No, we did not. Councilman Metivier-And those bills went or those letters went to the tax bill address and not the Seelye Road address or the Rockhurst address. Ms. McCollister-No, I understand that. Supervisor Stec-And we are having the meeting here in the North Queensbury Fire House. Ms. McCollister –I just want to request another meeting when we can have more people here. Councilman Brewer-I think we will get a sense of what we are going to do tonight. Ms McCollister-I think this is very unfair. Well, a lot of other things I would say but they have already been said. Some of the things in your plan the responsible management entity REM we are really an educated group, now come on, we do want to save the lake and the Town of Queensbury should not be in the business of telling us what frequency we have our septic pumped out nor is it the towns responsibility to select a contractor to pump out our systems and then tax us to provide this service. This is the homeowners, maybe we need more home education and have groups of us homeowners here, would be much better than all this. Then my last thing is creating a new tax district is crazy as far as I am concerned. Our own New York State Governor is trying his best to cut taxes in a time when our Country and State is in a very bad time. And you are going to create another tax on us. I know it appears that the driving force which it is you just stated that you are going to lose this money if you do not use it. I do not know it is very frustrating. Supervisor Stec-Again, and not to debate with you but, for the hundred dollars a year Ms. McCollister-It is not going to end up being a hundred dollars you and I both know that. Supervisor Stec-I cannot guarantee what the next.. Ms. McCollister-Look at the budget, I mean, you have got the budget in there with these people making thousands of dollars , forty five dollars an hour for whatever they were doing? The budget, I am not a good budget reader but that sure hit we wrong. Supervisor Stec-I am not sure which budget you are talking about. Councilman Brewer-Dave could I ask a question. Ms. McCollister-People putting in the information in the computer. Which to me you should have a lot of your computer already or on file on all of us for what we have done or haven’t done in our home. Supervisor Stec-Dave if you would grab a microphone and maybe address some of your, Dave is our author of our map, plan and report. Engineer Decker-The budget was constructed to be overly conservative we used forty five dollars an hour on the assumption that the Town would in fact go outside the contract the Town has perfectly capable staff and I daresay they are not getting forty five dollars an hour. So, you are right to that point, we used a contract fee as if they go out and contract it out, outside because at the time we applied for the grant we needed to show what the expenses would likely to be. So those figures were used as the basis in filing the grant application. So, if anything and again I cannot tell you what your experience is or SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 440 isn’t but if anything the reality is that the costs are going to be substantially less, they are not going to be forty five dollars for the labor to do its work. Supervisor Stec-If I could go back to this, and again the sense of the room is we don’t believe the math or we don’t believe the intent, fine we will pack our tent and leave. But, our goal here and Board correct me if I am wrong, we thought that on that small percentage if it is your next door neighbor than it is important to you but that small percentage that don’t know for sure where their septic system is and are not taking care of it the way the it should and if we all agree that a three year cycle is a good idea to pump your septic tank. We felt that the numbers would be that through the economies of scale that we would get from putting it out to bid that and having a contract with a hundred and twenty people so that the guy could come up here once and pump a dozen in a day would be great and would be less expensive. If you do not believe that as a group then fine, we are done and good luck and we are out of here. Councilman Brewer-I guess I would ask how did we get to this point, who brought this to the town’s attention that we should be doing this? Supervisor Stec-Dave did you, four or five years ago Engineer Decker-Right. Councilman Brewer-But who brought it to us I guess, because I have not been overly involved in this process I am here because I am a board member but I honestly do not remember. I know about the sewer discussion I know how that ended I know that there has been talk over many years, Roger Boor talked about it and now Tony has talked about it. I just gathered that somebody brought it to us and said let’s explore this. Engineer Decker-Correct part of the Lake George Watershed Collation in developing the plan for the future it was recognized that septic tanks around the lake are a source of nutrients. Councilman Brewer-By whom? Engineer Decker-By any science any engineer, if any engineer would like to chime in, septic systems are designed to fail they have a useful life, much different from an operating treatment plant. Unless you maintain them properly those systems fail sooner than the projected life. Typical expected life for a septic system is thirty to forty years, that is if you maintain it properly. What does that mean, pump it every three years and rotate the leachates the beds. We do not have the options of rotating the beds in Rockhurst. The bed is the bed they are where they are. They were put in on substandard properties as someone reported earlier if these systems were to be designed today and put in they would never get passed. We have a substandard geology nature out there so what we are trying to do is make good of a situation although, again, we do not see failing systems out there in the classical sense where we are not seeing black flys, and we are not smelling septic odor, the science and the engineering will certainly confirm that whatever is coming out of that tank and leaching into the lake all we are looking to do is increase the performance of that. We thought by providing some state assistance to in fact lower the cost substantially that would be a tremendous incentive to a homeowner to in fact support this kind of thing because it is going to reduce their costs. If everyone in the district was in fact around the lake in fact were maintaining their septic system properly we would see much less nutrients in the lake than we are seeing. We are just not seeing that, the science is and we are continuing to see this traumatic build up of sodium in the lake and it is from a number of sources, it is the road salt, it is the septic systems it is the wastewater treatment plant that we have operating in the Village that are leaching down through the sand beds it is a combination of things it is not just one target. We are stepping back we are trying to working collectively to keep a clean lake clean. That is what this is all about this is not trying to fix a problem we are trying to pre-guess and prevent a problem from occurring. Councilman Brewer-So it is a concentrated area and we are trying to make it better than or at least stabilize what could happen there. Engineer Decker-One of the questions that came up in earlier meetings was..it was two years ago in an earlier meeting, one of the questions was can we in fact at some point in time look at community systems combining two or three failing systems into a single system. The method, as an individual trying to make that application to the State you really have no standing. When the district formed and you in fact formed this responsible management entity that is not a term we came up with it is a term that State recognizes throughout the State. That has a standing with the State. Basically what it says is that the Town is standing behind that entity and they then look favorably on if there are two or three failing SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 441 systems out there and an RME will take the responsibility of designing and installing and elevating the problem along two or three failing systems then a community system might be in order at that point in time. But, for two or three individuals to go ahead and say look we would like to in fact combine our systems because John Smith’s system is failing and Mary’s over here is not operating and we have got property over here that is willing to do that you probably would not be able to get something like that done. But with RME in place the State would recognize that and it is a viable solution at that point. That was one of the objectives I think we actually discussed in the plan it gives the Town the ability by forming the RME to in fact advance those kinds of positive solutions. Councilman Strough-Also, Dave, didn’t the County, wasn’t the County involved in this because I remember and I think Mr. Sargent made reference to this, the County gave us some options of what we could do. It went from municipal sewering as Mr. Sargent mentioned all the way down of having a septic maintenance district was one of the options we could investigate as one way of trying to remedy what is happening in the Southern Basin of Lake George. Now, nobody has mentioned it yet but everyone knows this a general knowledge there is enough studies to report this, Mr. Navitsky will back this up that the lower portion of Lake George is in degradation. Now, do I think it is Queensbury folks causing that, probably not. Do we as the communities that surround the southern basin should we start becoming responsible and investigating what is causing that? I think Mr. Sargent brought up a very good point, let’s have some facts and take a look at it. You brought out some facts obviously there are some areas that do need remediation and need attention and probably aren’t getting it like they should. But this on the option table was one of the least intrusive. We also looked at this and Dan brought this up if it could save you money at the same time as investigating how well or how well we are not doing, then it might be a win, win situation. Again, like everyone here has mentioned we are all here we are here to listen feedback, you discuss, we discuss. Maybe this plan isn’t the best , maybe some other plan might be the best but right now it is just you and I sitting together trying to say what do we have and what we don’t have where should we do. Tom mentioned we would like to see a storm water management system on Rockhurst Road. Well, Warren County Soil and Water Conservation District did propose that if you remember about four or five years ago. It did not have public support to be able to do anything. I mean you were probably in favor of it but there wasn’t. Maybe now the mood has changed maybe now if we proposed the idea maybe now they would go for the storm water remediation management, but let’s see what happens. I think to start with I think it was the County giving us options of what we could do and what we could look at and what we could investigate. Ms. McCollister-Well, I want to repeat something. I just think we need to have this meeting when everybody is here that is only the fair way. We just have to do it that way. A letter Councilman Brewer-I sense by the amount of people here tonight what, we are not stupid we can Ms. McCollister-A lot of them are from other places like Cleverdale and Assembly Point Councilman Montesi-Let’s assume everybody here is opposed to that, why would we have another meeting? I have not heard anybody say a positive thing tonight Ms. McCollister-Wells let’s Councilman Brewer-It does not make sense for everyone to come back here Supervisor Stec-…we are not dumb either. Councilman Montesi-If there isn’t even one positive thing tonight about what is going on you know what would another meeting do? We will get enough input from, the point Tom made about a storm water management district, we have the same problem on Assembly Point. What do we do with the water from the road? As in Rockhurst as in Assembly Point we are on bedrock in order to put catch basins in to put that water someplace other than the lake is a horrendous expensive proposition. I am not even sure where we could put the water. If we took all the water from Rockhurst and Seelye Road where would we put it? We would have to pump it someplace. We would have to dig down the center of that road to put the catch basin in. So, I mean .. Ms. McCollister-So, maybe more meetings Councilman Montesi-I am not being negative I am just saying it is a good idea but Boy. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 442 Ms. McCollister-no, no, but more meetings like this that people can come together and say yea I want to be a part of this instead of we don’t want it. Tom made excellent points but I think we all need to be together all one hundred and twenty people. Councilman Montesi-That will never happen. Councilman Brewer-Well like Dave said they had a meeting in September a meeting in August I was not here but was that attended very well? Supervisor Stec-I was at both of them and it was about the same size crowd for each. I was just thinking just outside the box because as John said maybe this isn’t the solution. But, I will put a rhetorical question out to the group everyone is nervous about creating a district and saying we are going to mandate the pump schedule and we are going to hire who gets to do the pumping and some people are questioning is there or isn’t there a problem? I wonder how much support among the hundred and twenty property owners we have if we just said all we want is for all hundred and twenty of you to give us permission to inspect your system? I suspect that, and it will not cost you a dime and the town will take care of it, there would be a lot of people that would say I do not want the town. Dave what has been your experience when you were a Junior Engineer trying to dye tests and did everyone say, yes sure come on in. Engineer Decker-Actually there was yes everyone was tested without exception. Supervisor Stec-Maybe that is the solution. Engineer Decker-..it was done by the State Park Commission at the time prior to forming the district. Ms. McCollister-I think you would be surprised how many people would welcome it. Anyway Councilman Brewer-We got the point. Ms. McCollister-You know I am just frustrated. Supervisor Stec-Thank you Linda. Yes. Please. Ms. Ann Campbell-Hillman Road I think most people here are pretty good about pumping out their septic just on the basis of I am out and about, people have new septics. I mean you can look around half the room has a new twenty five thousand dollar septic. But, for those that are not here that don’t care, don’t pump out their septic why not contract and truly get a hundred and five dollar pump out because I can tell you most people here never paid a hundred and five dollars to pump out ever. Contracts for a hundred and twenty people give everybody a ticket for a hundred and twenty dollar pump out every three years give them a voucher. So that way everybody’s is pumping out once every three years they get the contracted price. Supervisor Stec-But certainly look we are looking for ideas. Dave Ms. Campbell-There you have got one simple way without all of this. Engineer Decker-That is a great idea and quite frankly that is how the budget was established. What we did was applied, we applied a fifty percent subsidy for each pump out that is how we arrived at the budget. We just took that same program we did not think about giving vouchers because it was going to be a contract by the town or whatever entity it was but that was in fact how the budget was formed it in fact subsidize the pump out from each home owner. Ms. Campbell-Well and for the conspiracy theorists you would know who doesn’t do it. Councilman Metivier-Well that is the point. So, what do you do with the people that don’t do it? That is the point. Ms. Campbell-Well go to the people that don’t do it, but for the people that, ok how many people in these two rows have spent collectively a hundred grand on septics? You have got to find a way to stop nailing everybody with the law instead of the people that are truly polluting. I swim in that lake. Councilman Metivier-How do you find out who is polluting? You need to do something SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 443 Councilman Brewer-Testing is the only way. Councilman Metivier-But you are not going to let us. Not you, Ms. Campbell-Not me. Councilman Metivier-the people that know that have never pumped out their septic they do not know where it is, you think they are going to let us on their property? I do not think so. Ms. Campbell-Are they ever going to let you anyway? Councilman Metivier-They are going to have to, that is the point. Ms. Campbell-If you are taking the poll most people here are against it. Councilman Brewer-We got that. Ms. Campbell-At least you got one little solution of ok, I think that most people for a hundred and twenty dollars or even if it a hundred and fifty because I bet most people are paying upwards of three hundred that is what I paid two years ago. Supervisor Stec-You all got to get Tom Sargent has a line on a hundred and seventy two dollar pump out so make sure you see him later. Ms. Campbell-That is a small way to at least start. Supervisor Stec-I agree with you and again like a lot of things you are always preaching to the choir the people that care about their community about this situation about what we are talking about they are here tonight. I think the point that Tony is trying to make or if I could go one step beyond Tony is you might be religious about taking care of your system how certain are you the next door neighbor is as. Maybe in your case you know but does everybody know that the next, because these houses are on small lots for the most part. Ms. Campbell-I would also dare say that a lot of people do know who is not pumping out their septic knows whose septic is bad and don’t hesitate to call the town. I may be.. Councilman Brewer-You maybe out on a limb by yourself? Ms. Campbell-Out on a limb but Councilman Brewer-not by yourself. Supervisor Stec-As an aside, to put something out there for general purpose it might be of value whether this thing ever moves forward any farther or not it is akin to the on again off again another on again off again discussion the Town Board has had over the years about solid waste collection district garbage district. The discussion that came up there is again you call one of the three or four haulers around here and get your own price and then if there is a neighborhood like by old neighborhood the homeowners association contracted it out and they had a twelve dollars a month for garbage collection and I know that there are people on this dais that pay triple I will not name names, but it is not me. So, I throw that out there for, like I said if we drop this tonight and you walk out of here I know that there are some organizers that live up here and if someone wanted to organize around getting a group bid on septic, we are trying to make it easier and cheaper for you to take care of the lake. If you don’t believe that that is what this is about and I have gotten the sense at least six of you do not have that kind of confidence in what we are trying to do than that’s fine. I just put that out that you might be able to band together and get a more competitive price, just to save a little bit of money for those of you that do pump out. But again we still have not addressed the issue of what about the ones that we do not know if they are pumping out and yours could be clean but the guy fifty feet away from you could be polluting the lake and you might not know it. Ms. Campbell-You did not answer this question why are you including the land side of Seelye Road and Church Hill Road? Engineer Decker-…the board directed .. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 444 Ms. Campbell-Those people are not on the lake and they also have for the most part larger lots. Supervisor Stec-Well, they are certainly less critical than the ones that are on the peninsula itself. Councilman Brewer-…redraw the lines. Supervisor Stec-It is a map, plan and report that is the purpose of taking public comment we thought that the lines as drawn made sense but they are not set in stone. Engineer Decker-The simple answer to that Supervisor is the fact that Lake George is a cup the basin is a cup, anything is deposited in the cup regardless of where, how far it is it ends up in the lake at some point in time. Now, some things go faster than others because of bedrock or soil conditions but it is a cup and everything we are talking about here flows down hill. So, eventually whatever it is that we are doing to the land on the land with the land ends up in the lake. The closer to the stream you get there faster the farther away five hundred feet, six hundred feet it is still going to get there eventually. It still over time migrates that is part of the problem. You cannot deal with the … it is easy to deal with if I don’t have a problem don’t fix it. It is one of those things where you are not seeing the problem because you do not have a feel for and I don’t standing here either, have a feel for what is happening sub-surface. We know what the science says, we know the …says and we know what the geology of the lake and the geology this lake is not conducive to operating septic at this time. There is no soil, just bedrock that is the problem those nutrients are making themselves into the lake and that is being shown by the increase in sodium. Now, again I will just reiterate on this we do not have a problem on Rockhurst with bubbling septic systems. We looked at Rockhurst as a small entity quite frankly to be a model for the rest of the lake . This is really what this is about. Creating a model that others could in fact reach to get to. I do not know if there is going to be grant money for any other places around the lake. We opted to go here because it was small enough and it fit into the grant money that we had. The model is to create these management districts around the lake to in fact improve give us a shot at dealing with the septic systems that we know are never going to have sewers. We know we have to do something about them they will continue to leach nutrients into the lake. Supervisor Stec-Anything else? Ms. Campbell-No. Supervisor Stec-Thanks, anyone else like to comment this evening? Yes. Sir. Mr. Mark Ryan-Mark Ryan 28 Rockhurst Road Can you create this management district and do nothing? In fact create it and then go for, investigate our plans? Supervisor Stec-Yes. I had an e-mail exchange maybe a few weeks ago with Tom and Tom we are going to all continue to pick on you. This was essentially; the answer to your question is we have to have a purpose to form the district. The State limits what we can create districts to do. However, you can create a district and once you create a district the district is there forever. It may be there forever but, the managing entity in all cases at the Town of Queensbury it is the Town the Town Board with public input, creates a budget for whatever the district is. So, if we, like we are looking at a couple, Glen Lake and Lake Sunnyside approached the Town and asked us about a nuisance aquatic plant district to manage milfoil and their issues that they have got. Those questions came up if we wanted to expand the scope to include something else in the future or if it got too onerous that we decided as a group of people in the district you know that this killing us and we do not want treat the chemicals as often as maybe ideal do we have that flexibility? I think to your point to create it and then say let’s sit still and not do anything. Within reason, within the law of how we create the district the answer is yes. We have flexibility if we wanted to say we wanted to limit it to lets create the district do an inspection and do one pump out and then see and play it by ear after that you know Dave and Bob correct me if I am wrong, but we have some flexibility on how we manage this district. If it gets to the point where people say this is too much or we can do something different and we want to change that it is up to that Town Board at the time to work with the district the folks that are in the district. Town Counsel Hafner-Mr. Supervisor, I just want to jump in. I have not read the grant Supervisor Stec-plus whatever the strings are in the grant. Town Counsel Hafner-if we go forward and we accept the grant, there are going to be some requirements..places on us having to follow through on some things. I have not seen the grant. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 445 Mr. Ryan-Along the line of the grant what are those things? You create the district and you do the best science as possible or does it say you do the best effort? The best science you just said was no septic systems in Lake George at all. That is just what you said. What you are proposing well we are not even, we are just going to inspect what you got and have you pumped. That does not follow the best science and what is in the grant? Supervisor Stec-Dave if you would address that now I think that is a fair question, very fair. Engineer Decker-What we are talking about here is instituting what is referred to in the literature as a best management practice. Best BMP. It is given what we are doing right now and again for the moment you assume that there is minimal or no inspection and some given the people in this room, probably above average in terms of the pump outs. That is not the district as a whole that is not the hundred, I dare say there is not a hundred and twenty properties located here. So, the best management practices are that you institute a program where there is voluntary or otherwise to in fact increase the reliability of the septic systems given the fact that you probably not going to have sewers. If the hand that you are dealt is I am probably not going to have enough capital ever to sewer this area and really take care of the problem and get the waste off the lake than what is my next best option. I have got to increase reliability of the system that I do have. How do I do that? I do not have enough soil, I am not going to require everybody to go out and put in mega systems, I may have room enough to co-locate some small community systems within that. There is probably to run sewers all up and down Rockhurst would be terribly prohibited in terms of costs. In trying to drill lines and put those in. So, the hand you got dealt with can we make with the best five cards that we are given. That is to increase the reliability by pumping them out and seeing what is there and in providing some technical expertise to the operators. I dare say again, the folks that are here may be a cut above the others that are out there I do not know that. But, the given is that we are trying to increase and institute a best management practice. Councilman Strough-But also Dave, it says in your report that there is an education component to this, that there is an assessment component to this to just assess the situation it might be fine it might not be. If there are problems that need to be addressed this kind of system will address those. It says that it will supervise the installation of future systems to assure that everything is in right. It would maintain a data base it would start the data base and establish and enforce monitoring and maintenance schedule. So, these are the kinds of things that you know just trying to think. Engineer Decker-The point that I was brought up earlier could the Town form the district and do nothing? That would probably not be an option but they could certainly do something less than what is in the map, plan and report. Now could they opt to say just take the hundred thousand dollars and use it as an incentive plan for those people who want to come forth and be pumped out? That is an option. But that is probably not getting at the heart of the problem. Mr. Ryan-It sounded like the heart of the problem was you didn’t think we were pumping out enough. You have a hundred thousand dollars and we have a hundred and twenty homes if we all take our eight thousand dollars as vouchers against calling up one of the haulers that you made a deal with, I think we can get pumped out annually for a long time without having to make a make a lot of different things. Because, you just said it is not ever going to be practical to put a sewer system in there. We have talked about sewer systems the community wide holding tank system and we talked a lot of different things but now I hear that is never going to happen. Engineer Decker-No, what I am saying is I am going with the assumption given the present financial conditions and where we are in the State, in the foreseeable future I don’t see the capital available to in fact put a sewer system in and collect the sewerage and send it where? That was again, we went through some estimates and that was in the millions, dozens of millions of dollars I believe. So, that is really where we are we are saying how can we make better what we have now and take a preventative action to try and deal with keeping this clean lake clean. That is all this is about to be honest. Mr. Ryan-If we have the money and the goal is to pump the systems use the money to pump the systems. People are spending a lot of money to have systems that you just say aren’t the thing to do to begin with. If we have the money to spend for those people again, I do not think everybody was against the district, but they were against the regulation and the method about making us do something on your fee basis. But, since you have the money lets share it and use it. Supervisor Stec-The Town can’t put out a bid and make it exclusive which is what the haulers are going to want to get a price. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 446 Mr. Ryan-For a district? Supervisor Stec-If we create a district and that is just it, so no one wants the regulation but everyone wants the good deal. I cannot give you the good deal without a format a structure. Mr. Ryan-But if you have the structure of the district with asking for the homeowners to do the pump outs Supervisor Stec-But that is just it Mr. Ryan-and have the deal for us. Supervisor Stec-there are some people that said I do not want this level in intrusion. We do not have the authority to say we are going to put out a bid you do it and that is why I go back to my earlier point to Ms. Campbell is you know like the garbage collection, if you guys want to organize somebody do that phone tree and say hey you know, are you on board if we call five haulers and say what deal will you give Rockhurst or Assembly Point or whatever that is your private business and more power to you and you probably will get a better deal. Getting that off the ground can be difficult sometimes and if you wanted the Town to do it there is a legal frame work that we have operate within to do that is to form the district. But everyone is a little leery of you have created another district that is another layer of government we all know that another layer of government of any sort is a bad idea. At least sixty six percent of people understand that. We are trying to do the right thing and if you guys say this dog does not hunt I am out of here I have got things to do. Mr. Ryan-On creating a district are there staff members are there residents on this district is it a committee is it a board? Supervisor Stec-Historically at the Town level and I will venture a guess in ninety nine percent of all cases it’s the governmental board, the Town Board. It is not required to be that but I have never in my twelve years and a few dozens of these kinds of actions it has always been the Town Board and every once in a while and in particular and late things because that was a question that came up at either Glen Lake or Sunnyside they wanted to know, we do not want you to be the governing board we want to be the governing Board. There is a methodology to get there it is just a little unusual but we live in unusual times. Councilman Montesi-As a business man sometimes I am amazed that in my neighborhood there are forty four houses on any given day there are three different trash haulers coming in, why wouldn’t a business trash hauler try and get them all? But it doesn’t happen, unless somebody takes the initiative to say hey I got this guy and he can do all of us. Supervisor Stec-If that works for you, I am telling you it is a valid option too and I would encourage if somebody says you know what, my next fight is going to be finding the best deal for everybody to get pumped and then use that peer pressure to lean on your neighbors and make sure everyone is taking advantage of the good deal the you find them, you do not need us. It has not happened yet and there is this grant money and I got no burning desire, I do not have a grant burning a hole in my pocket. But by the same token I do not want to hear from somebody in the audience tonight you guys had a hundred thousand dollars and you could not get off the dime and use it why didn’t you tell us and we would have pushed you a little harder so that is why we are here. Mr. Ryan-Is there a test to see if my system is leaking sodium into the lake? … Mr. Ryan-You said that is the one that that we are worried about. Engineer Decker-Sure we can always test, anybody can test for sodium now the question is where are you going to test? If you give me your septic tank we are going to get X alright the question is where do we test, where do we test your individual system? Where do we think it is leaching into the lake? Mr. Ryan-Do we have a good test that we doing even with the right management? Engineer Decker-The test would be and quite frankly the Park Commission ran a simple they ran a rest of several systems, there is a dye test and that quite frankly is inclusive because you have to run water in your septic system for probably eight hours to get it flushed through. That is not going to be helpful. But SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 447 the tests that were run probably five years ago now by the Park Commission they contracted I think Stearns and Wheler an Engineer Firm out of Syracuse. What they did that actually put peasdometers wells down gradient between the septic system leach fields and the lake and they measured them over I think three summers trying to get drought conditions and wet conditions and some kind of an average and took water samples out of the wells. That is only the way you could really, because there is no way to know where the drainage where your drainage field ends and whatever is leaching into the field because it could hit a seam of rock, does it continue on the sand is it clay, does it pond there is no way to know that. What you do know is that it is going to run down hill. So, whether it is running down hill in a direct line or running down to a seam and heading out that is the unknown. So, how to measure that and test that and to see whether your septic system is providing sodium is impossible. Mr. Ryan-Does the Town recognizes non conventional systems? Leach field systems like the peat moss systems, other raised beds systems things like that as a standard system without having to go down the variance path? Councilman Brewer-I do not think there is any standard system for all properties. Engineer Decker-As long as they are engineered. … Supervisor Stec-We have got some exotics some would call exotics systems in town. Mr. Ryan-In other States and other localities those are like non exotics they make the most sense. Supervisor Stec-We have seen the Elgin Systems Councilman Metivier-The peat systems we have done two in two years. Mr. Ryan-I know that you have touched on this and you said you know the answer to this but, seasonal use verses the non seasonal use for holding tanks. Supervisor Stec-There are some people that are not here tonight that feel very strongly that the town has no authority to grant a year around structure a holding tank. He comes to a lot of our meetings and he has said that on numerous occasions and we have disagreed with him quite often. Mr. Ryan-Isn’t it the engineering that a non use, like a seasonal septic system actually under performs compared to a one that is used year round. Supervisor Stec-Yes. Mr. Ryan-So, the science is actually in the holding tanks favor. So, instead of being a variance or even stopping somebody from a seasonal you should actually be encouraged from the science side of it and not the political side. Supervisor Stec-Yes. You are correct and the other thing of course is a holding tank you know until the holding tank rots out you know it is not going anywhere. The down side on a holding tank is it is a little more expense because it is the hassles of need to make sure it is pumped. Mr. Ryan-Actually if you are going to spend twenty five thousand dollars on system Supervisor Stec-You would probably get a lot of holding tanks pumped. Mr. Ryan-That is correct especially at a hundred dollars. You said you did not know the answer in this will the non registered voters have any? Supervisor Stec-Off the top of the head I do not know if I have an answer for that I really Town Counsel Hafner-In general it is going to be property owners. This is a district that is a special district I looked into it I thought it might be question. Mr. Ryan-Thank you. Supervisor Stec-You are welcome, thank you. Yes, Chief Baertschi SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 448 Mr. Jeff Baertschi-Jeff Baertcshi 19 Holly Lane Just a comment I am not an engineer or scientist I am an common sense person I consider myself a problem solver. If the coliform levels are low around the lake in this basin, Southern Basin, Assembly Point, Cleverdale, Rockhurst and the sodium levels are high I think you should do some base line tests right now to see exactly what vels are, shut the damn salt trucks off on Assembly Point, Cleverdale, Rockhurst and 9L from here to the Village and do some tests again in three years to see what the sodium levels are. I can tell you that it is truck loads of salt that goes on these roads, I mean it is astounding. Now, I have driven up here all my life as a lot of these people have I do not see why when the weather forecast says we are going to get a little snow we need to dump four truck loads of salt on these roads. A little sand on the hills, slow down when you drive, stay home if you cannot drive, go to the grocery store when the roads are bare. Get rid of the salt trucks the problem is solved, I firmly believe that it is astounding how much salt goes in this lake from surface runoff. Supervisor Stec-Thanks Chief. Is there anyone else that would like to comment. Mr. Navitsky I will give everyone a first chance Linda. Mr. Chris Navitsky-Good evening, Supervisor and Town Board Members. This probably will not be the first time I am speaking different than the majority of the crowd. We would like to commend the Town Board. I am not a resident of Rockhurst, I am the Lake George Waterkeeper ..we would like to commend the Town Board for the development of the wastewater district we feel that it is a well established wastershed management tool for protecting water quality from negative impacts of wastewater. We support the aspects including the defining of pump out times requiring timely inspections and providing education to homeowners regarding their systems. It is our opinion that the management plan needs to be more comprehensive than simply routine pumping to be effective at protecting public health and environment and also preserving property values. The district needs to have an ordinance that will address many of the aspects which are mentioned in the report and this ordinance will provide the detail that is needed to protect the property values and also the environment. We think that there should be more information on the responsible management entity who will that be and where will it be operated in the town. We think the plan needs to reference design standards for replacement systems including requiring enhanced treatment technologies. The report states that many of the existing systems are reaching or past life expectancy are located on small lots or are under designed to current standards. The trend that we see a lot we attend all planning and zoning boards is there is a tendency to expand the smaller cottages and replace the older seasonal cottages with larger residents. The wastewater management plan should detail the design requirements and standards for the system and really encourage the use of the enhanced wastewater treatment which includes the aerobic systems, peat filters and other approved systems. We feel that the plan should also include a requirement of onsite wastewater system inspection at time of property transfer this is something that is referenced but is not detailed we think that would go far to resolving a lot of the unexpected systems that are discovered and the problems. We feel that there should be more detailed provided on the contract employee description which could affect the project costs. The budget references a technical person billed at forty five dollars an hour, typically that from my experience I have been out of the consulting field for about ten years but that is a lower level employee and really provides no oversight by a licensed professional. If the Town plans to provide supervision and sighting information I really think that you may want to take a look at that number and make sure you do have some involvement of a licensed professional. I do feel that this system is needed, there are problems around the lake and we are talking about the cumulative impact you cannot really point to one property you cannot point to one aspect of what is going on . Every summer for the last twenty five years there has been a dead zone that is created right off from Plum Point, just south of Assembly Point basically in the lower levels of the lake oxygen decreases to where fish cannot be sustained that is not pointed just at simply at septic systems but at cumulative impact. Over the last three summers we have noticed sixty algae blooms around the lake we have noticed them right in this vicinity right off of the shore line of the Town of Queensbury. It is very difficult to point to one property there were studies done by Warren County over on Lake Luzerne a much smaller lake much less mixing that you have than in Lake George where they actually went around and tried to pin point septic problems on each property and you cannot determine it. You can be very near shore but whenever you got water movement whenever you have waives whenever you have wind you are not going to be able to pin point that down. A wastewater management district is nothing new that has been tried around the State, the people in Keuka Lake around the Finger lakes have had one for almost twenty years. Skaneateles lake has had one, very, very aggressive very good and they have very high water quality also. I think you can ask other management districts that it works. Now regarding the approach I think there can be different approaches. Right now the approach that is on the books really provides, it is a fee, an annual fee for the property owners. There are other levels you could take it to a level and say alright the property owners you are going to become the operator the Town will not become the operator and we will not assess you a hundred dollars, I will just throw out twenty dollars. Now every three years you must SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 449 send in a certified pump out that shows that you have pumped your system. So, you take the burden away from the town or the management entity and you shift it to the property owners. We have heard from some responsible property owners here that may be an option that the town takes a look at. You are still making sure that the districts are pumped out or systems are pumped out but it may be a little less burden on the property owners and the property owners that are not being pumped out they will raise to the top, might be a bad pun, but you would be able to tell who they are and then you can assess the system at that point. So, I think the management district is the way to go there are different scales as I said you can put it more on the property owners and it becomes less of a taxation issue if I can use that term or it can become more of an entity where the town or some other entity looks at it. In conclusion we feel the Waterkeeper offers our support to the Town in this effort we hope that the Town can form the district and properly implement the wastewater plan to the benefit of the residents and for the water quality of Lake George. This plan should become a model for wastewater management throughout the watershed. In closing I do think that we would be glad to sit down with the town and give some of our ideas. But we think that, that might be an option after hearing some of the comments. Councilman Strough-Chris while you are here, algae growth is an indicator of the pollutant levels, true is that accurate? Mr. Navitsky-Of nutrient levels, Yes. Councilman Strough-I assume pollutants, nutrients things that should not be there. Mr. Navitsky-As Dave Decker referred to you can go out and people have referred to studies and it is great the people are looking at that but you, once the nutrients get in there they get absorbed and taken up by the algae so you are not going to find it in the water column. It is already taken up and with Lake George having such low nutrient levels whenever it gets in there it gets taken up with the algae quickly. We are discovering clouds of algae literally six foot diameter clouds floating out by Elizabeth Island out in Bolton Bay. So, I mean there are nutrients that are getting in there. Councilman Strough-Tony and I have done little surveys here and there not giving up the locations but, storm water, outfalls, and in front of people’s homes that we suspect failing systems you can see the algae grow. That is not a good indicator. Supervisor Stec-Thank you Chris. Anybody else not just Rockhurst, anybody else I am not seeing a lot of hands shooting up. Yes. Sir. Mr. John Dickinson-My name is John Dickinson my family owns property on Rockhurst, I am a dairy producer I know a little bit about best management practices. I am a voting member of the New York State Soil and Water Conservation Committee. I can just re-iterate some of the things that some of the local people have said, their concern about the sound science and having significant data base to base decisions on. The science indicates that these soils and the situations where these homes are located do indeed have a greater opportunity pass nutrients into the lake. But without a data base to know just because the soils indicate that there conducive to leaching without having a firm number of how much nutrients are leaching I do not see how you can measure what kind of an impact the dollars invested are going to return. On the committee level so often projects come before us where there isn’t necessarily the research that is done isn’t necessarily based on actual identifiable sources. This sounds like an example of one of those situations. I know nitrogen phosphorus is an issue and it mostly comes from a number of sources and it is more specific to the areas where Rockhurst is. But sodium on the other hand is a total watershed issue. I think if you look at the watershed of the area of the lake it is significantly larger than people think of it is not just the roads Pilot Knob and Assembly Point and Rockhurst, it is significant. I have read reports that have indicated that the increase of the sodium level of the lake is actually due to the increased number of roads, the development that has happened around the lake. So I would encourage the Boards to look at the big picture of the watershed basis, when they are trying to determine how they are going to address this problem for the residents but at least start with some sound science as the data loads. The data indicates the loads on the lake and the source of the sodium. Because I am not convinced that for the amount of roads and the proximity of the area of the residences is the main source of the sodium in the lake. Thank you. Supervisor Stec-Thank you. Anyone else that would like to address the Board this evening? Sir. Mr. John Matthews-John Matthews, Castaway Marina I am concerned that pumping septic systems isn’t going to do the trick. How do you know that the field is working properly? I have been a contractor around the lake for forty some years and we did a lot of work around the lake and issues that I found quite frequently is the water would migrate from the field which was fairly close to the house on these SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 450 small lots get into the footing drain system and go right straight into the lake. It is all gravity fed, nothing runs up hill. So, my feeling is that pumping out of the septic system is good but you have to do it every three years is not necessary especially on these systems that are only part time use, summer use. That is my main concern on whether or not you have thought about that. Supervisor Stec-Thanks John good to see you. Mr. Matthews-The only question I had was if it were to come to be a mandated area how would you get these people that won’t let you on their property they will not let you know where their septic system is to comply? Supervisor Stec-We have our ways, we do not like to talk about them. I say that kind of flippantly we have enforcement staff and we got lawyers and access to courts and there will be a certain percentage of any population that any law you are going to have to deal with. The vast majority of people usually want to comply and respectful of the process and the law. Those that want to resist we have got options we do not like to use them but we have them. Mr. Matthews-I realize that. The Town without this system, has inspectors, and they are going around checking building permits and what not. Supervisor Stec-Our inspectors would catch a problem like this when it is bubbling on the surface or the next door neighbor calls and complains about it. I think the purpose here is if there is a way to avoid that and nip it in the bud and save everybody a few bucks at the same time that is what we are all about. If people say thanks for no thanks we have got it covered some of the scientist in the room may disagree with you but we work for you. Thanks, John. Dave it looking like he wants to jump up and answer something. Engineer Decker-I am sitting here and thinking and taking this in and one of the things I am hearing of an objection is intrusion in level of privacy we are not going to enjoy. One of the things we did not talk about is was the fact that once the district is formed one of the actions that the Board must take with obviously public input is the construction of by laws. How is this district going to operate? Now within that they have got the flexibility to say all right do we mandate that there will be a pump out every three years or do we provide funding such that it can be every three years but not more frequent than. That is something that the Board has as a latitude. In other words again we set this up to provide a budget such that you could in fact have an annual inspection, you could in fact provide a pump out every three years. Not that you must. The bylaws could be constructed such that you may allow for pump out every three years if someone doesn’t want to have a pump out the budget would be spent someplace else. Now how that would fit in with the regulatory agency is something else. But with the construction of the district itself and the actual establishment of bylaws you have the flexibility to do that. You can as Chris mentioned you can take a look at how you want to implement this thing in terms of being less intrusive more intrusive, mandating, not mandating providing a voucher if that is the way to go. But you certainly can, the point is you will not have money to do it more frequently than three years there maybe people who want to do it more frequently than three years you do not have the money to do that. You do have money in the budget to do it once every three years. Maybe stretched to four years, that is up to the Town Board and the regulations. But you have that flexibility to once you draw those bylaws into doing that. Supervisor Stec-Thanks Dave. Councilman Strough-Dave, You are talking about every three years how about somebody who has a holding tank would they be able to get the discounted price? They are going to need to be pumped out more often. Would they be able to do that at a discounted price? Engineer Decker-When the budget was put together we recognized that some folks have pump outs. The budget was such that they would get if a pump out is a hundred and fifty dollars and that is what is going to be provided to a homeowner once every three years to in fact pump that system out then that would be the same hundred and fifty dollars that would be given credit if you will to the person who has a holding tank. He is in the district he is part of the process he has got a dwelling he is certainly going to be assessed for being in the district so he would in turn get a voucher for a hundred and fifty dollars that he could give to his or a check or whatever mechanism maybe he, maybe the pump out contractor sends the bill to the Town but the hundred and fifty dollars in value for instance number would certainly be there for the person with a pump out just as it would be for someone with a septic system. Councilman Brewer-Not a discount every time he pumps. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 451 Engineer Decker-No, but the hundred and fifty dollars once every three years if that is what it is, again that would be established in the bylaws, for those people on a pump out system they would either a voucher or whatever the mechanism you wanted to get the money to them. Councilman Strough-I will tell you one thing I learned tonight I am paying two thirty. Supervisor Stec-John? Mr. John Hodgkins-Good evening John Hodgkins Assembly Point. I just had a couple observations one thing was on the budget process was talking ninety seven dollars a year if you are getting pumped out every three years Mr. Schoonover was telling me that is three hundred dollars for a pump out the second question I would pose the Board to think about if the town is involved in this a government agency is involved in this is prevailing wage all of a sudden going to set in? Any time we are doing a construction project that is a factor of 1.4 so Supervisor Stec-You went right for my soft didn’t you, everyone knows that is a pet peeve of mine. Mr. Hodgkins-It is a factor that we have to look at but that brings it up to four hundred and twenty dollars a pump out. But, and then I will jump in, I just had my pumped out last summer and IBS charges for a thousand gallons I think it was a hundred and seventy five dollars. I just called them on the phone and that is what it is. If anyone wants to get pumped out just call. Supervisor Stec-There you go, what a public service we are shopping around for you. It is like QVC. Mr. Hodgkins-I guess Mr. Navitsky mentioned there might be a different way of formulating things with a lower thing so sometimes the savings, everybody is looking at money how do I save a dime here or there you might be paying more if you go that direction that is all I am saying there might be an option to put this together at a lower level if someone is interested. I am not interest in Assembly Point by the way. Another observation, I think Mr. Sargent was listing the places that had higher pollutant levels everyone of those had sewers by the way and that has gone over for years and years it has always had higher levels in the sewer areas. I think a lot of that goes back to, another comment was made by storm water runoff you usually get sewers in everybody builds more everybody comes up more you get more runoff. My last observation at least over in our area we are worried about point source pollutants coming in our septic fields but if we could hunt the deer off on Assembly Point we would probably have a lot less problem over there with pollutants coming off. Last comment. Supervisor Stec-We don’t enforce hunting regulations at all at our level so have at it. Anybody else want to comment? If I could because I know there are a lot of people saying what are they going to do next they ignored us for an hour and a half and now they are going to do whatever they wanted to before that is for the conspiracy theorist that might live up here in the room tonight. I think that the sense that I got because after eight years I actually, these guys don’t know it, a couple of them do know it but they don’t like to admit it publically I can read their minds. Even yours. I am getting the sense for starters that we are not going to take any action tonight. If we decide, if we don’t decide to just forget it we are out of here and I am sensing that there are a few on the board that say no let’s give this a little more time to jell that what my intent would be, my suggestion to the Board and to the public would be that I would leave this public hearing open. We will continue to take written comments, somebody tell Mr. Salvador that we will continue to take written comment. Councilman Brewer-Until the day before he comes home. Supervisor Stec-Yea, he is on vacation right now. …you just thought I was getting forgetful, why does he keep repeating himself, I was just teasing Mr. Salvador that evening. For the neighbors that cannot get here I will ask Dave to investigate with the State what our real clock is. I will tell you from my personal experience the State doesn’t really concern themselves to lately about paying us on time but they are very concerned about how we use their grant money. But in fairness to the State for whatever reason this has been a long process and the state is starting to get a little antsy are you going to use it or aren’t you going to use I are you going to do something? I think what I have heard from a lot of people here we do not like the way you have got it today, but if you got access to a hundred thousand dollars to help us pump our systems we are in favor of that. We heard that we were not born last night. We do not want to lose an opportunity either, so I will ask Dave to find out what kind of time will the State grant us. We will continue this and it will be here it will be at a date in the future and we will let you know with at least the same lead time as we let you know for this the word will get out we will make sure that say all right it is going to be, the State might not let us go to July. We will shoot for after Memorial Day I hear SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 452 you. In the mean time though maybe some of these comments we can kick them around amongst ourselves and maybe come up with a little more detail on some of what you know how we would address some of these things. I cannot stress enough it is not the Boards intent, now I am glad that Dave mentioned in the beginning, we do not want get into a regulatory situation where we say, guess what, we were at the Smith’s house on Rockhurst and they have got a failing system and then we call our Code Enforcement people and go out there and rattle their cage. That is not our goal here. But again, we are government we can’t necessarily ignore the law either. Our driving motive here is to try to use Rockhurst as a relatively small test area to try to do some good, save a little money, start developing that base line. It either works or doesn’t work if it works then guess what Lake George, Bolton, Hague, well, Lake George, Bolton and Hague they got their sewer system. The East shore of Lake George going all the way up Putnam, Dresden, that maybe some of these other communities might follow suit and say that septic management system is a heck of a lot cheaper than trying to sewer it and it seems to be working there. We do not know right now other than there is engineers and scientists that have looked at this and say this is a good thing. But, you know we are not here to force anything down any ones throat this is not Washington or Madison, Wisconsin or anything like that we are still work, we know who we work for. So, I am going to suggest to the Board that we do that though, leave the public hearing open, we re-notice the meeting. But as Ron or Tony pointed out we are never going to get everyone in the room, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. We will get another bite at this apple but at some point we will make a decision one way or the other. If we form a district it is subject to the thirty day permissive referendum. Like I said we historically try to avoid that not because, it should be as clear, it should be as simple it is well supported and we move forward. You got one or two that doesn’t like a district and you move forward with the district some would call it terrine most of us would call it leadership. You have half the people in the district saying this is not a good idea that is enough for us. We are looking for a clear message from the folks in the would be district. We will put it out to you with a show of hands how many people think that another meeting on this is a good idea in the future? How many people think I have heard enough you guys are wasting your time having it any more meetings and just drop it? All right a minority but there are more than a couple. Like I said I think that is my recommendation to the Board is to punt this evening let it jell maybe tonight if nothing else is spurred a little bit of discussion and maybe we have got some better ideas that will come. Yes, Sir. If you want to, the public hearing is still open for now so anyone else wants to comment before we close I will take any comment you got. Mr. Jim White-Jim White 104 Seelye Road Dan and Ron and Anthony and the nice young lady over that I have been paying my taxes to for all these years. I am not an engineer either but I am a lot like John. As a matter of fact I came into the area years ago and worked for John and put in septic systems and things like that. I just had a couple thoughts and I came to this meeting only because I heard things that did not make sense to me. I heard more things this evening that did not make sense to me. First of all, no disrespect, we have an engineer here saying that we can’t have a septic system designed that are going to work in the soils and the ledge and the rock. Meanwhile I bought my house in 1986 and we first in my house in 1974 and had Thanksgiving dinner with Linda McCollister I think in 1975. So, I have been around the lake a long time. I have seen my streets Seelye Road with those twenty five, thirty, forty thousand dollar systems that the Town Board ok has approved. Supervisor Stec-It was not me in the 70’s. Mr. Jim White-You know the boom has been the last ten to twelve years. We are talking camps specifically on my street four or five camps bought one big trophy house as I call it, all nice homes engineered, variances, through all the hoops paid all the fees did everything hopefully we are engineered properly. The septic systems engineered properly so that they work so we are not having these issues. Down my street which is a short dead end street at least fifteen or twenty over the last twelve years brand new systems. Now, I really, the other reason I came here I sort of, was sort of put back that I lived here my whole life that I consider my neighbors in Rockhurst , in Cleverdale, Assembly Point the Town of Queensbury and the whole lake people that are really stewards of the lake. If you live and you pay your taxes, and you stay here you enjoy the lake you want to be here you want to do what is necessary to keep that jewel there. That triple A rating. So, it took back me, to get a piece of paper from the Town saying that I need to pump my septic system. I know to pump my septic system. My neighbors know to do their septic system and if you don’t pump it and you have a problem then you go to the Town Board you get a building permit you get an engineer to come in and he designs you a system that will work to protect the lake and make the lake work. Make your system work so you can use your property and pay your taxes and enjoy the lake. So, I do not quite understand why just this section was singled out, if its a hundred and twenty people you need to make the funding dollars work that is fine. Supervisor Stec-Well certainly that is part of any district SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 453 Mr. White-So that was the answer why this section. We have a group of a hundred and twenty Supervisor Stec-very close together it seemed like the best bang for the buck as far as you have got the density it is Rockhurst it is not it not Sandhurst. Mr. White-You look at the history where the problems have been you have seen them your system failed by neighbor called ok you have to put a holding tank in you cannot do a septic system you do not have enough square footage based on what the code is for that system. But, the big issue that I have is that everybody I would think when you do your study if this was to go through, you do your study and you ask them to reply to what my system is, how is it functioning I think you are going to be surprised. The fact that you say the system is not to code and it doesn’t work or it is failing you can in the Town of Queensbury you can put an outhouse in Cleverdale behind your house it is allowed. The State has outhouses all on their islands. Ok. So, the fact is if you have a system and you are using it properly and taking care of it, it functions fine. For me to be sitting in a meeting where I need to have a town say that I need to be part of a district so that I can get, save a couple of bucks or really for three years I am not saving anything because right now you can get it pumped for less than three hundred dollars. Supervisor Stec-IBS one seventy five. Mr. White-So, my point is that I would really, really like to see the energy in storm sewer drainage somehow, catch basins on Seelye Road, Rockhurst whatever you can do at the Town level to fix that and when people are not being good stewards of the lake they are going to get it found out. The Town doing their job with the building inspectors will be on the sites and identifying them and taking care of it. I also remember having back in the 80’s a letter that I got from the town asking for us to do exactly what you are doing right here. That letter said identify your system. There was people that were going to go around and do dye testing and I think it was part of the building department and they did have some problems with knocking on the door, no you are not getting on my property you are not putting anything in my toilet. But, as you can see that most people in the Town of Queensbury at least in my neighborhood are very, very responsible. They get engineers to design stuff they do everything to code your inspectors come out and they knock on the door and they watch how the construction goes they want to see those leach fields before they are covered up. But, if they do not work and you are saying you cannot do them any more that is a problem. You can get an engineer to design a system that he feels will work and find new technology to make it work. That is all I am saying is that for me I sort of feel put, why am I here for you to tell me to pump my system out. Supervisor Stec-We have not told anybody anything. Mr. White-But, you know where it is going if it goes through. Supervisor Stec-The process. Mr. White-When I have neighbors who have put twenty five, thirty thousand dollars in they are on a program, they know, they want to protect that investment. They do not want that thing to fail. If it has any kinds of problems they are calling the guy to put it in and what to know what happened. That is all I wanted to say. Supervisor Stec-Thanks, Jim. Anybody else this evening? Ms. Sherry Kearns-My name is Sherry Kearns I live in Cleverdale. It seems to me that there is only one real point here and that is lake water quality. The issue of government intrusion is separate. If we want to maintain lake water quality pumping septic tanks is mandatory. It must be done. It is one of many variables that negatively impacts the lake. If we can get a bargin, I think that is terrific. That is all I have to say. Supervisor Stec-Ms Davies I understand that they brought up storm water management five years ago. Councilman Strough-Yes, Dave Wick he probably still has the plans. Ms. Davies-I just happen to believe that personally that it is our biggest problem. Councilman Strough-I am sure Ron will talk to him and see if we can’t bring it back to you. Ms Davies-Could the funding be …toward that? SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 454 Supervisor Stec-For this grant? I do not know. Like I said not like we are chasing a hundred thousand dollars grant we have it, I do not know what the rules are on that. Councilman Brewer-We can look into it certainly. Ms. Davies-I was shocked to hear maybe people just don’t understand all they have to do is drive the road. Councilman Strough-One of the problems was, the system was that the storm water that came from properties and onto the road and from the road would go into a system that has a pipe in the center of the road and everything would be pitched toward this, and there would be sand around it and sand is a natural filter like your fish aquariums and your swimming pools and everything else. But the problem was we need laterals from that to go back into the lake. It would be clean water but we needed to go on people’s property for these laterals to get the water back into the lake. Clean water again because it has all been filtered. We could not get property owner permission to get the laterals in. Ms. Davies-I think there is a lack of understanding. Supervisor Stec-Well, that is true in a lot of things that I end up getting involved in, just things in general. Ms Davies-But I agree with you. I just wish that it would be revisited . Councilman Brewer-Certainly it can be absolutely. Supervisor Stec-Similarly to John’s point we have been talking about Sunnyside and the aquatic plant district that we want to form, a petition came by from all the neighbors they, everybody wants this district they want no one will give their, we need to have access to the lake in order to do the business of fighting these plants. Everyone wants it but no one will give us access so you know, I mean all it takes it two percent. Ms. Davies-..they are making progress in other townships, with putting storm water. Supervisor Stec-We have been pretty aggressive in Queensbury all over. Councilman Brewer-It is a whole different subject. I think we should look at it. Ms.Davies-I think they are related I really think the septic problem is related. Supervisor Stec-As Dave pointed out there are all kinds of sources for these pollutants and as aside I was going to say to Dave afterwards, I am not sure, I would have lead the defense of the science argument with the reference to sodium because I knew that we would have people say isn’t that what they are putting on the road in the wintertime? I understand your point that it is and I think Chris Navitsky made the same point that you know the nutrients get absorbed and they are removed from the water columns so that is not the best. But I think a stronger argument would have been it’s Rockhurst the proximity the density to the water more so than any other part of the lake this is a logical place to look at this which is why and the numbers work. When you start putting together a district what is manageable start crunching the numbers and you know it doesn’t work for three or four and five thousand is too many but a hundred and twenty in a confined area it is a good place, but again, we did not come here tonight to tell anybody we were going to do something. It is a public hearing, you are the public we are hearing and Councilman Brewer-We heard. Supervisor Stec-We are not in a rush to do this I mean I just wanted to make sure that everyone understands where we are it has been a long road so it has not sprout up over night. The State will say sooner or later we will use that grant somewhere else. If they could put it to better use God Bless them that is fine but I just did not want to lose an opportunity if there is support. If there is not support then I am not dying to spend a hundred thousand dollars of the State money either Lord knows they need it. Ms. Davies-There is no opportunity of switching that ? Councilman Brewer-We do not know that we would have to find out. Supervisor Stec-I do not know that is something that would look at. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 455 Councilman Strough-There are other things too that homeowners could do to reduce the pollution that is going into the lake. Putting a fifteen foot naturally vegetative permeable buffer. Supervisor Stec-Hey John I want to get out of here alive tonight. Councilman Strough-Not using fertilizers .. Supervisor Stec-What else do you want to talk about, let’s talk about assessments. Is there any other comments this evening, like I said we will have another and certainly feel free to write those cards and letters, hate mail goes to Wincrest Drive or Hillcrest Drive. Councilman Montesi-By the way you have been here a lot longer than the clock shows I think Supervisor Stec-It’s an hour slow. Councilman Montesi-North Queensbury forgot about.. … Supervisor Stec-So, I am going to leave the public hearing open we will have another meeting it will be th here on a non Monday night and something closer when snows leaves which may be July 4. When there will be more people back. I think we have gotten the sense, like I said our mission here is not to force anything down anyone’s throat. If you want to talk to your neighbors that are not here tonight, if they have a strong opinion they want to send a letter. Darleen does a letter count the same as public comment? Town Clerk Dougher-Yes, it does. Supervisor Stec-Yes, it does. Darleen, did you get any? Town Clerk Dougher-No, I didn’t. Supervisor Stec-Bob are we required to send a notice to everybody in the would be district that we are thinking about making the district? Town Counsel Hafner-No. Supervisor Stec-No, we are not required to do that but, Dave, did we send a letter to everybody? Engineer Decker-Yes. Unknown-Who do we send it to? Supervisor Stec-Darleen Dougher, Town Clerk she takes all our correspondence. If you send it to me I will make sure she gets it. … Supervisor Stec-We may have a different version or revision of what we are talking about by the time we have the next public hearing based on what we are hearing tonight. I will leave the public hearing open and I will entertain a motion to adjourn. RESOLUTION ADJOURNING TOWN BOARD MEETING RESOLUTION NO. 126.2011 INTRODUCED BY: Mr. Tim Brewer WHO MOVED FOR ITS ADOPTION SECONDED BY: Mr. John Strough RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Queensbury hereby adjourns its Town Board Meeting. SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING 03-23-2011 MTG #9 456 th Duly adopted this 23 day of March, 2011 by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Metivier, Mr. Montesi, Mr. Strough, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Stec NOES: None ABSENT: None Respectfully submitted, Miss Darleen M. Dougher Town Clerk-Queensbury