AV 28-2021 & AV 32-2021 Cleverdale 333 & 337 Minutes(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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AREA VARIANCE NO. 28-2021 SEQRA TYPE TYPE II 333 CLEVERDALE LLC (SAN SOUCI)
AGENT(S) HUTCHINS ENGINEERING PLLC OWNER(S) 333 CLEVERDALE LLC ZONING
WR LOCATION 333 CLEVERDALE ROAD APPLICANT REQUESTS APPROVAL OF
OUTDOOR SEATING AREA WHICH INCLUDES EXISTING FOUR 6-PERSON PICNIC TABLES
AND ONE 4-PERSON TABLE ON THE RESTAURANT PARCEL AND FIVE TOP TABLES FOR 4
PERSONS EACH ON THE ADJOINING PARCEL. SITE PLAN FOR MODIFICATION OF AN
APPROVED PLAN AND MODIFICATION OF THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT (SUP 45-2009).
RELIEF REQUESTED FOR PERMEABILITY AND PARKING. CROSS REF AV 26-2012; AV 38-
2009; SUP 9-2012; SUP 45-09 WARREN COUNTY PLANNING MAY 2021 ADIRONDACK
PARK AGENCY ALD LOT SIZE 0.27 ACRES TAX MAP NO. 226.12-1-43 SECTION 179-3-040;
179-9-120; 179-10
JON LAPPER & TOM CENTER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 28-2021, 333 Cleverdale LLC, Meeting Date: May 19, 2921 “Project
Location: 333 Cleverdale Road Description of Proposed Project: Applicant requests approval of
outdoor seating area which includes existing four 6-person picnic tables and one 4-person table on the
restaurant parcel and five top tables for 4 persons each on the adjoining parcel. Site pl an for modification
of an approved plan and modification of the special use permit (SUP 45-2009). Relief requested for
permeability and parking.
Relief Required:
The applicant requests relief for floor area, density, permeability and parking in the Waterfront Residential
zone –WR.
Section 179-3-040 Dimensional
Variance for property at 333 Cleverdale is for parking where 44 spaces are required and 17 spaces are
provided. Permeability is 22.7% and 75% is required.
Criteria for considering an Area Variance according to Chapter 267 of Town Law:
In making a determination, the board shall consider:
1. Whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a
detriment to nearby properties will be created by the granting of this area variance. Minor
impacts to the neighborhood may be anticipated.
2. Whether the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method, feasible for the
applicant to pursue, other than an area variance. Feasible alternatives may be considered to reduce
the number of seats.
3. Whether the requested area variance is substantial. The relief requested may be considered
moderate to substantial relevant to the code. The relief requested for parking is 27 spaces less than
required. The relief for permeability is 52.3 % less than required permeability.
4. Whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical or
environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district. The project may be considered to have
minimal impact on the physical or the environmental conditions of the area.
5. Whether the alleged difficulty was self-created. The difficulty may be considered self-created.
Staff comments:
The applicant proposes to add outdoor seating for the existing restaurant. The project includes additional
outdoor seating on adjoin parcels. The plans show the location of the outdoor seating and the location of
the existing building. During COVID the applicant had outdoor seating and would now like to make it
permanent.”
MR. LAPPER-For the record Jon Lapper with Tom Center the project engineer. I don’t know if it’s the
Board’s pleasure to do this with 337 together.
MR. MC CABE-I thought about it. We really should do them separately.
MR. LAPPER-Okay.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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MRS. MOORE-You might want to at least read in the description and the one reason I suggest that is the
public hearing, due to the public hearings coming up.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. So people won’t get confused as to which one. Yes, okay. I understand.
MR. URRICO-So am I reading it? Okay. So this is 32-2021.
AREA VARIANCE NO. 32-2021 SEQRA TYPE TYPE II 337 CLEVERDALE LLC AGENT(S)
HUTCHINS ENGINEERING PLLC OWNER(S) 337 CLEVERDALE LLC ZONING WR
LOCATION 337 CLEVERDALE ROAD APPLICANT PROPOSES TO UTILIZE A PORTION OF
THE 0.15 ACRE PARCEL FOR ADDITIONAL OUTDOOR SEATING FOR THE ADJOINING SAN
SOUCI RESTAURANT WHICH INCLUDES 5 TABLES FOR FOUR PEOPLE AT EACH TABLE.
THE LOCATION IS AN EXISTING HARD SURFACE AREA OF ABOUT 407.2 SQ. FT. OF PAVERS
USED AS A WAITING AREA FOR CUSTOMERS. VARIANCES ARE REQUIRED FOR THE
PROPOSED USE AND SOME PREVIOUS PROJECT ACTIVITIES THAT HAD NOT RECEIVED
APPROVALS. THE SITE HAS AN EXISTING DETACHED GARAGE AND DECK THAT REQUIRE
REVIEW. SITE PLAN AND SPECIAL USE PERMIT ARE REQUIRED TO ADD A RESTAURANT
USE TO THE EXISTING PARCEL WITH A HOME ON IT. RELIEF REQUESTED FOR SETBACKS,
PERMEABILITY, AND DENSITY. CROSS REF SP 33-2021; SUP 2-2021 WARREN CO.
PLANNING MAY 2021 ADIRONDACK PARK AGENCY ALD LOT SIZE .15 ACRES TAX MAP
NO. 226.12-1-44 SECTION 179-3-040; 179-5-020; 179-10
JON LAPPER & TOM CENTER, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT
STAFF INPUT
Notes from Staff, Area Variance No. 32-2021, 337 Cleverdale Road LLC, Meeting Date: May 19, 2021
“Project Location: 337 Cleverdale Road Description of Proposed Project: Applicant proposes to utilize
a portion of the 0.15 acre parcel for additional outdoor seating for the adjoining San Souci restaurant which
includes 5 tables for four people at each table. The location is an existing hard surface area of about 407.2
sq. ft. of pavers used as a waiting area for customers. Variances are required for the proposed use and some
previous project activities that had not received approvals. The site has an existing detached garage and
deck that require review. Site plan and Special Use permit are required to add a restaurant use to the
existing parcel with a home on it. Relief requested is sought for floor area, restaurant use, permeability
and parking.
Relief Required:
The applicant requests relief for setbacks, permeability, and restaurant use.
Section 179-3-040 dimensional
Variance for property at 337 Cleverdale:: Floor area –existing 1,397 sq. ft. and maximum allowed is 1,607
sq. ft.; permeability- 51.3 % is existing where 75% is required; Deck front setback is 18.4 ft., rear setback is
28.4 ft. where 30 ft. is required; Garage rear setback is 3.1 ft., rear setback is 17.1 ft. where 30 ft. is required;
restaurant use per special use permit 5 ac required and 0.15 acres is existing.
Criteria for considering an Area Variance according to Chapter 267 of Town Law:
In making a determination, the board shall consider:
1. Whether an undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a
detriment to nearby properties will be created by the granting of this area variance. Minor impacts
to the neighborhood may be anticipated.
2. Whether the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method, feasible for the
applicant to pursue, other than an area variance. Feasible alternatives may be considered limited
due to the location of the existing house and proximity to the restaurant.
3. Whether the requested area variance is substantial. The relief requested may be considered
substantial relevant to the code. Relief requested for floor area is 210 sq. ft. in excess; permeability is
23.7 %, Deck front setback is 11.6 ft., rear setback 1.6 ft.; Garage rear setback west 26.9 ft., south 12.9
ft.; Restaurant use 6.85 ac.
4. Whether the proposed variance will have an adverse effect or impact on the physical or
environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district. The project may be considered to have
minimal impact.
5. Whether the alleged difficulty was self-created. The difficulty may be considered self-created.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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Staff comments:
The applicant proposes on the residential site to allow for 5 table tops for 4 persons each and to request
approval of existing conditions of a deck and garage. The outdoor seating is associated with the existing
restaurant on the adjoining parcel as outdoor seating is proposed on that parcel as well. The outdoor
seating was offered during COVID and the applicant would like the use to be allowed permanently.”
MR. MC CABE-So we’ve got to have two separate determinations here because we have two separate
projects.
MR. LAPPER-Absolutely, but it’s easier to talk about together.
MR. MC CABE-I understand.
MR. LAPPER-Just to begin, so the Sans as it’s referred to, the San Souci is without worry in French. So
this has been since 1913 is my understanding this has been there. A very unique and important destination
on the southern basin of Queensbury. It’s been in multiple ownership, mostly everybody losing money
and then the next guy taking over. So in 2018 eight families, because the then current owner Larry Clute
was getting tired of financing the loses or breaking even and everyone who was a patron wanted to make
sure that it was maintained as a resource for the community as a gathering spot in the community. So a
bunch of people decided to pool their resources and buy it. Since then they have done some nice cleanup
on the inside, mostly cosmetic, light fixtures, carpet, paint, hired a new chef, but it’s the same use that’s
been there for all of these decades and it allows people to walk or to drive from Cleverdale, Assembly Point,
Pilot Knob, just all the areas in the southern basin of Lake George, rather than having to drive into
Queensbury proper or Lake George Village. So just serves an important purpose. People have stories for
decades, you know, kids who then grew up and bought houses nearby and everyone gathers there, and for
that reason it operates very different than any other restaurant in Town or most anywhere else. Look at
the parking. The people park two deep. Everybody knows everybody and if there’s an issue you’ll hear
someone say okay white Toyota SUV you’ve got to move because somebody’s leaving. Nowhere else
would anybody put up with that, but here that’s absolutely how it works and how it’s always worked. If
you’ve familiar with the site, there’s the lower parking lot on Cleverdale Road and the higher parking lot
on Mason Road. The area, because of COVID, where the tables have been placed is basically inside, you
can see from the map, inside of the parking. So you’ve got the two streets and you’ve got the parking areas
along the streets and this is the area that’s basically buffered by the cars, buffered by the roads. With that
said, when you’re all concerned, last March and April, and not knowing how contagious everything was,
sitting outside was pretty important, and it’s been helpful making people feel comfortable but also it’s nice
to sit outside. So it’s the same use that’s happened there for over 100 years, but it would be nice to have
seats outside. The garage that was discussed isn’t a garage. It’s a storage area. It’s considered a garage in
Queensbury because the door is six feet wide, but that’s just where they keep equipment for the restaurant,
decorations, etc. This is a request that is supported by many, many people, and we’ve got letters from
dozens and dozens of neighbors and people that walk to the restaurant or people that drive to the
restaurant because it’s really important there. It’s a lifestyle thing. I know that there are some neighbors
here and they wish this was a house instead of a restaurant but it’s been here for a long time before anybody
else. This is like a year after the Titanic sunk. It’s been there a long time. So I’m going to ask Tom to go
through the variances just to summarize and explain why they chose what they chose. We’re not asking
for the A-frame to become a restaurant. It’s just that it needs a Special Use Permit so that the outdoor
seating can go over the line into that property.
MR. CENTER-Do you want me to address the variances on both parcels or just the tavern parcel?
MR. MC CABE-First you’ve got to tell us who you are?
MR. CENTER-Tom Center with Hutchins Engineering. Do you want me to address the variance on both
parcels?
MR. MC CABE-Yes.
MR. CENTER-For the restaurant parcel the only variance that we’re looking for is for the parking for less
than the required parking. Jon I think explained, you know how the parking works.
MR. MC CABE-Well also permeability.
MR. CENTER-There is no additional permeable hard surface for this parcel. I’m not sure why that’s in
there, Laura. We didn’t, there’s no additional hard surface. There’s no new construction. There’s nothing.
Everything that’s there has been there. That portion of that patio was actually in the previous submission
when we did the other work when they did their expansion. So there is no additional hard surface. That
patio, the garage and the deck actually, if you look at GIS, were added sometime between 2008 and 2010.
So the only thing we’re looking for on the tavern parcel is parking.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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MR. MC CABE-Okay. So is that true, Staff?
MRS. MOORE-Yes.
MR. MC CABE-Okay.
MR. CENTER-So we just need parking. In regards to the residential parcel, like we said, the garage and
the deck were added some time in, it looks like 2008, from the GIS you can see it pretty clearly, and those
are for the setbacks for those and they were done by a previous owner, and the patio also was sometime
between that 2008-2012 timeframe. So we’re looking for, that would be the permeable relief there and for
the setbacks for the deck and the garage and also the last one would be to use the parcel for the restaurant
for a Special Use Permit. Again, they’re only looking to add these things to an already existing services
that were there. If you have any questions.
MR. MC CABE-Do we have questions?
MRS. HAMLIN-In general?
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
MRS. HAMLIN-So the house itself, is it occupied?
MR. CENTER-Yes. It is owned by the same owners, and it is rented out.
MRS. HAMLIN-It’s rented.
MR. CENTER-Yes.
MRS. HAMLIN-Okay. I just see a lot of your non-compliance could get a little less if it was feasible to
merge those lots. Has that been considered?
MR. CENTER-I don’t think merging them, and it’s really, this wouldn’t have come up if we had not had
COVID and the allowed outside usage and the way that it was accepted. So that’s really why this has come
forward. It’s not like, you know, I know previously there was a patio built on the other side that’s been
removed that they did ask for that was not approved that has been removed by this owner. The entrance
off that side was removed, and it was brought back into green space area over there.
MRS. HAMLIN-The people living in that house don’t mind having patrons around?
MR. CENTER-I believe they’re related to the owners.
MRS. HAMLIN-All right.
MR. MC CABE-Other questions?
MR. HENKEL-I mean I don’t know if this changes this or not, but was there any discussion about hours
that people could be outside? If this is approved.
MR. LAPPER-That’s something we could certainly talk about as we get into this.
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
MR. LAPPER-For the outside.
MR. KUHL-These tables are not taking up any parking spaces?
MR. LAPPER-No.
MR. CENTER-That’s correct. No. We’re not losing any parking. Parking remains the same. And also
I guess I was talking with somebody else who goes up there, some folks from North Queensbury that said
that also a lot of people use golf carts up there and bring golf carts in to get there.
MR. KUHL-But this is really a result of the Corona Virus where everybody had to sit outside.
MR. CENTER-Correct. They didn’t just start this and then come back for approval. This is because of
how it was accepted during COVID and the outside seating and knowing in the future some people are
going to want to sit outside or have that space. So they’re looking for it.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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MR. MC CABE-Other questions? So a public hearing has been advertised and so I’m going to, for the
purposes of the public hearing, I’m going to consider both of these requests together, and then after we’ve
accepted input from the public then we’ll separate them. So is there anybody in the audience who’d like
to speak on this?
PUBLIC HEARING OPENED
NICK GAZETOS
MR. GAZETOS-Could you show me the first slide on this and give me the top because that’s my property.
Nick Gazetos, 97 Mason Road. I’ve owned the property for almost 19 years and again I acknowledge and
accept the San Souci as is. I was born and raised in Glens Falls. My family’s owned property up on the
east side on and off for a long time.
MR. KUHL-Did you state your name?
MR. GAZETOS-Yes, Nick Gazetos.
MR. KUHL-Okay. Thank you.
MR. GAZETOS-Okay. So my property is on the other side of th e wood frame house, right across Mason
Road. So that corner, I’m right there. So I know all about the San Souci, and I’m going to tell you about
the house. The gentleman said it’s rented to relatives. I don’t think so. It’s like an Airbnb, okay. People
come and go during the summer. So it’s a little different spin here, all right. So what they’re asking for is
a 50% increase in occupancy. The occupancy right now stated inside is 105. Forty -eight is almost 50% of
it, of 105. So you’re asking for a big increase without one single car parking space being added, okay. Now
I, at the top here, and my property’s two-tiered. So I have, in the old days there used to be a tennis court
there, okay, and it’s now my leach field. Those guys, when it’s crowded on a weekend, they park there.
They park in my driveway. They throw bottles. They throw trash. They are rude. They come flying
around the corner, and I have seven grandchildren, and rude behavior. They swear at us. They come flying
around and act like we’re the problem, all right. It’s inappropriate. And again, loud voices late at night.
We have a garbage smell sometimes, compressor sounds. Again, I just don’t think it’s the right thing to
do. I’m okay with it as is. It’s been there. Her uncle who would be 96 this year had his first drink there
when he was 14. So again, we know all about the history going back to 1914.
MR. HENKEL-Was it called Staples before?
MR. GAZETOS-Yes.
MR. HENKEL-It was a dance hall.
MR. GAZETOS-Yes. And then they had, you know, Walter had it. We know the history. You know
the history, but as is, okay. Fifty percent increase in parking on a July 4th weekend, they’ll take over our
yards. Just telling you.
MR. MC CABE-So the other lady was.
MRS. MOORE-Mr. Chairman, just a reminder about the timing of public comment. Typically you offer
only three minutes.
MR. MC CABE-Yes. So try to keep your comments to three minutes. If everybody’s saying the same
thing, we’ve already heard this one. So try to talk about other things.
MELANIE O’BRIEN
MS. O’BRIEN-Okay. I’m Melanie O’Brien. I’m also part of that family that owns 97 Mason Road. That’s
my husband that just spoke, and I just.
(Phone ringing)
MR. MC CABE-Can you hold on just a second. Hello. This is Queensbury ZBA. After the people who
are in the general audience talk.
MR. KUHL-Melanie, what did you say your address was?
MS. O’BRIEN-97 Mason Road, with the owners of 97 Mason Road.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. Sorry about that.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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MS. O’BRIEN-That’s all right. So I’ve reviewed some of the file, the prior applications and so forth, Special
Use Permits, and there’s been a lot of variances for various things, changing the restaurant, putting in some
holding tanks, side line setbacks. There’s been a lot with this non-conforming use to bring it up, to make
it better, to make it serve the population and so forth, and so okay, but at some point some of these rules
and these variances, you have to consider the surrounding community as well, the neighbors as well, and
with all due respect, some of the people that speak are not neighbors contiguous to this property and
abutting it and they don’t share the same concerns. They go there. They have a good meal and they g o
home, and we go next door. So again the applicant does seek an increase of 48 permanent outdoor seats,
and this is in addition to the indoor capacity of 105, totaling a 153, which they may not all use but legally
once it’s granted they have the right to use either this owner or a future owner, and the capacity is especially
intense during the summer months and that’s when their outdoor capacity is going to be maximized.
People are going to want to be outside and they will be. Also currently the patio area is used as a waiting
area for people waiting for tables inside the restaurant. They will not have that space if they have people
sitting and eating there. So I don’t know what you’re going to do with those people and where they will
be if you’re taking away their patio area where they have sort of a holding area for them. So we really
consider that variance as very substantial to add 53 permanent seats and also the fact that you’re now kind
of also sort of growing this use beyond the commercial into now a residential space as well. Secondly the
applicant acknowledges 44 parking spaces would be required for this increased capacity by seeking a
variance to use its existing 17 parking spaces, notwithstanding the increased capacity and when you
discount the spaces reserved for handicap use and for two that are allotted for their employees, you’re using
that 17. So this variance is really substantial. Adding this kind of capacity and not making parking
arrangements. I know we keep saying they have this special system going on and they park in tandem,
but if you Google restaurants on Cleverdale and it comes up San Souci, there’s nothing telling you there’s
special parking arrangements. If you’re from out of state or out of the area, you just parking on the road.
You just park on my property or you park in Janet’s property. So it is a concern and I know the applicant
discounts it, but it is a concern. Thirdly, the quality of life for the surrounding properties. So parking is
a problem, but that’s not the only problem. The application doesn’t address noise and the hours and the
gentleman brought up, and bars, I understand bars can be open well past midnight. So that will create
some noise that does not exist because there’s not now 48 people out there.
MR. MC CABE-I think in Warren County they can’t be open past midnight.
MS. O’BRIEN-Okay. Well if you say so but I don’t know what the regulations are for that.
MR. MC CABE-I remember a meeting about that.
MS. O’BRIEN-It is in your Special Use Permit they cannot be open past a certain time?
MR. MC CABE-I don’t think it makes any difference. I think in Warren County the bars have to shut
down at midnight.
MS. O’BRIEN-Okay. I heard a much later time, but I hope you’re right. So it is a bar as well as a restaurant.
So we just feel that this is a material change to the area and noise hasn’t been addressed. Lighting, litter
control haven’t been addressed by the applicant. So we think that these are the quality of life issues that
we need to be addressing. So I am not in support of the variances being requested by the owner that
would expand the seating capacity by 50% but not include a plan for parking, for adequate parking and
noise and related impacts to neighboring properties. Thank you..
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
MRS. MOORE-Mr. Chairman, just to let you know there are people outside waiting to come in to speak.
So if you have spoken and you could give up your seat I’d appreciate that so the people can come in from
the outside to speak.
MR. MC CABE-So the lady in the back, you’re next.
CAITLIN MILLER
MS. MILLER-Hello members of the Board. My name’s Caitlin Miller and I am co-owner with my family
members of the residential property at 93 Mason Road. So if you look up at the map here, I am that corner
lot as well as the lot across the street to the west. I’m speaking to you tonight to express our extreme
opposition to everything addressed in this application. Our property shares those th ree borders with the
San Souci property and our family has owned the property since the 1970’s. My grandfather owned the
property until he passed away a few years ago. My mother was raised on the property as were my brother
and I. It is our understanding the San Souci has in the past been granted a Special Use Permit to operate
a commercial business in a residential zone. The current application requests modifications to the Special
Use Permit in order to utilize the property in a much more intense way. It’s because of our love for the
community and our experiences with the property that we feel it’s appropriate that we strongly oppose all
parts of this application. Our oppositions are as follows. The outdoor seating as has been mentioned by
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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my neighbors is being requested to be increased, the capacity of the restaurant by 50%. In past years the
area where the tables were during COVID 19 was used as a waiting area. The applicant has stated that
this area was installed by a previous owner. It’s important to note it was used by the previous owner on
the residential property to have seating and tables well before COVID 19. We understood that due to
COVID 19 we were all impacted. So we did not complain about additional noise and things that were
caused by the seating in that area. However as we can note none of us are wearing masks tonight. The
Pandemic is hopefully coming to an end. So we don’t see that this is necessary that it become permanent.
On many occasions the wait times for seating have caused patrons to congregate in the parking lot and the
adjacent streets for long periods of time. One occasion even resulting in a Frisbee game that stopped traffic
on Mason Road. On 11 separate occasions this past year patrons of the Sans were found trespassing on
our property and Janet Stasio’s property. On one of these occasions, the most appalling of which, the
patrons were on Ms. Stasio’s deck to take pictures of the sunset and were asked several times to leave.
This is something that we dealt with in the past, but not as frequently and we definitely noticed an uptick
with the outdoor seating during 2020. We have issues with noise pollution. This application seeks to
modify an existing Special Use Permit allowing additional commercial use. During the 2020 Pandemic,
we got to see a preview of what life would be like if the outdoor seating continued at the San Souci. We
noticed a substantial increase in noise and disturbance to our otherwise quiet neighborhood. This can be
directly attributed to the addition of the outdoor seating area. The noise often occurred late into the
evening and caused us to close windows of our home without air conditioning on hot summer nights in
order to try to mitigate that. The noise generated by constant shuffling and re-parking of cars in the lot as
substantial as well. The system that they use, the applicant has stated is a well -used system. They’ve
used it for many years. While this may be true, it causes a lot of problems for the n eighbors. We often
kick people off our property. Often people are honking their horns or yelling in the parking lot while
moving cars.
MR. MC CABE-So noise is a problem. So we’ve got to kind of speed things along here.
MS. MILLER-In addition we have a hard time believing that the septic system is going to support the
additional increase.
MR. MC CABE-That’s not our purview.
MS. MILLER-Okay. We also have an issue that the Special Use conditions of the previous Special Use
Permits are not currently being met and have never been met.
MR. MC CABE-So the Special Use Permit isn’t, again, part of our purview here.
MS. MILLER-On a more personal note, my family and I question why the Sans is seeking to expand the
outdoor seating when historically there has been none. In fact the only reason that outdoor seating was
allowed for this was because of COVID 19. We understand that the Pandemic was a hardship and
therefore didn’t complain but that’s no longer the case. Our property was purchased w ith the
understanding that the restaurant would be for indoor dining only and not outdoor dining. Our property
is the most affected since we share a full eastern property line with the Sans as well as the southern and
eastern boundaries of our back lot. In addition to this, would you like me to address the other application
as well?
MR. MC CABE-Yes.
MS. MILLER-So obviously we’re opposed to this as well. For several other reasons. So this, if approved,
which the applicant has glazed over, this would change the zoning of a lot that is a residential lot to a
commercial zoned area permanently. As adjacent neighbors we’re opposed to.
MR. MC CABE-Excuse me, but that doesn’t change zoning. You just get a variance. So the zoning is the
zoning, no matter what.
MS. MILLER-We believe it would change the character of the neighborhood and it would open up the
door for that area to be used in the future if they wanted to have live band nights, if they wanted to have
weddings. It would open up the door for them or for future owners to use that space as they see fit as
commercial property. We don’t think that there is any rationale to prove hardship and there’s no benefit
to the community other than what the Sans already has. The expansion of the restaurant into outdoor
seating would further exacerbate the issues that we’re already experiencing as neighbors and it sets a
dangerous precedent. So if this proposed zone change goes though many of the properties passed down
from generation to generation would be in danger of also being changed over to commercial property.
MR. MC CABE-So again we’re not changing the zoning.
MS. MILLER-It’s because of our love for our community and experiences on our property that we feel it’s
appropriate to be strongly opposed to all of the parts of this proposal. We hope that you take our coming
here tonight to heart and that you understand that we are not asking for any changes made to the
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
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restaurant as is. We’ve lived in peace for many years with them, but we don’t feel it’s appropriate to
expand to outdoor dining.
MR. KUHL-You gave her four and a half minutes. Why do you have a gatekeeper if you don’t close the
gate?
MR. MC CABE-She’s a resident.
BILL KIMMONS
MR. KIMMONS-Hi. My name is Bill Kimmons. I own the house at 87 Mason Road. I’m cattycorner from
the restaurant I itself. First, in a hurry here because we’re on a time constraint, but we moved, my wife
and I moved 2012. We knew the restaurant was there. Everything’s fine. We’ve helped them. We
helped the other owner. People would come by. They were very confused, when are they open, when are
they not, and we would try to sell the thing. We’re all for the Sans as it was before. All right. Now let
me just go back to last night. Last night there was a meeting. We weren’t allowed to speak. It was a
different kind of meeting for the Planning Board. Last night somebody from the Planning Board said, asked
a question about, well they were very sentimental. They said the Sans, we love the Sans. Everyone likes
the Sans. We’ve only been there 10 years. We love the Sans. However, now the new owners want to
change the game. They want to change the Special Use. They want to use pieces and some things were
said that aren’t exactly so, and COVID was brought up last night that, well no one complained last year
plus because we were trying to be good Americans and go with the flow, okay, of the whole thing, as we
all I think would hope to think we did, and also let’s remember, COVID. We had people sitting there.
They were meal pickup and there was limited outdoor dining. It was a very different time. We all
struggled through it. The parking. The parking’s the big thing. I want to go to the board. You see there
is currently right now there’s supposed to be a dumpster corral. They were ordered to do it, it never
existed and it doesn’t exist to this day. There a three dumpsters, two dumpsters and one for grease and
oil, and it shows that hatched area there as being grass area. Well that’s currently where parking is now.
So we said does any of this effect parking? Well it does. The three dumpsters there and the grease
container, and then the picnic tables that you see up there, guess what, they’re in the parking area, too. So
the 44 parking spots that now we’re allowing them to work under 17, okay, that now we’re going to have
how many more cars with the 48 people? I don’t know, pick a number. Let’s say it’s 10 more cars, 6,
whatever. I don’t know. We don’t have enough parking now. So where do they park? I have parking
across the street from me for about five cars. I’m a good guy. I let people park there. It’s not a big thing
to me. I’ve had people, not a problem, but they park in my driveway now. I have a picture of a really nice
Mercedes in my driveway. I wish I owned it. All right. I’m in a hurry with the time, so I’m going to go
to the Comprehensive Plan. Queensbury has a Comprehensive Plan. In the application i t talks about
being mixed use. We’re not mixed use. We are Rural Residential. The nearest mixed use is at Bean’s
Country Store. We’re not even close. We’re 10 minutes away from that. This is Rural Residential.
MR. MC CABE-It’s actually Waterfront Residential.
MR. KIMMONS-Well, when you look at the Comprehensive Plan, they refer to it, and I have the maps, as
Rural Residential.
MR. MC CABE-Sir, hold on a second. So, Laura, is this Rural Residential or is this?
MRS. MOORE-The classification is called Waterfront Residential which allows not only residential uses
but other uses through Special Use Permit such as this restaurant use. A restaurant use is an allowed use.
I understand that the Comp Plan talks in generalities. So this may be why it talks about Rural Residential
use in that particular area or that they specify what the APA’s land use classification. So it does talk in
generalities, but the Zoning Code specifically has that area as Waterfront Residential.
MR. KIMMONS-And in the Comprehensive Plan which was adopted in 2007 it also talks about targeted
areas, and ours isn’t one. It’s not even near.. I think that is a, it comes into this. It says that we’re in
harmony, it says that we’re in harmony with the Comprehensive Plan, but it’s not. We’re a little teeny,
you probably all know it’s a little place. Adding all of these people could potentially be a problem, because
we have to not only look at the current owners. We have to look at what it could be for the next owners,
and using that portion, like I said, those picnic tables they’re in the parking lot. The dumpster area, the
grass, there’s no room for grass. That’s just make believe. The parking is huge. The people park wherever.
The roads are too small. What if Mr. Gazeto’s property catches on fire? The fire truck has to get by. I
hope he has a good day where everyone’s parking somewhere else because it’s going to be hell to pay, and
how about the poor people that are beyond the restaurant in the Point? Now they have to deal with traffic
congestion to just get to where they want to go. This is really unfair. We knew we moved next to a
restaurant, inside restaurant. When Becky was there we helped her, the whole thi ng, but this is beyond
the pale now that they are encroaching, and this is only the first step in a plan, obviously, that they want
to do more with the cottage. My wife and are completely against it, and last, in closing, they said well it’s
a neighborhood thing. It’s a neighborhood thing. Here’s the Chronicle. Here’s an advertisement for the
Sans.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
9
MR. MC CABE-We don’t need that. We understand.
MR. KIMMONS-No but they’re here tonight. They’re reaching out and say well people can walk from
Assembly Point. Really, you’re going to go for a beer and walk from Assembly Point and you’re going to
go 9L, you’re going to take your life in your hands.
MR. MC CABE-Jim uses a kayak.
MR. KIMMONS-Well that’s great, and you can come in my dock, but you know what I’m saying? That’s
a reach to say maybe there are outliers that could do that, but are many people going to do that? I highly
doubt it. So what are they doing? They’re coming by car. They’re coming by car. Whether they’re
single, doubles, carpooling, a lot of cars. I know some of those cars end up in our, in my driveway, and I’ve
been a good guy up until now. Those five spots, I’ve let people use them. One time a guy gave me a really
tough time. I said could you move, I said you’re close to my son’s bike. He said what business it of yours.
I said I own the damn property. I just don’t want you to scratch my son’s car. He’s very into his car. This
is the kind of day to day nonsense. I’m the guy that does and swims. I love snorkeling. I clean the stuff up
from the lake. If I can’t carry it with my bags, I’ll put it on the dock. I’m trying to help the lake. My wife
and I have only been here for 10 years, but we’re very into the lake. We’re talking about adding 48 pe ople
to 105. You’re adding, I like to look at it as a third, big difference. I would kindly ask you to look at this
as a quality of life. We haven’t really talked about noise and lighting and all the other things. I’m done.
Thank you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. Go ahead. So I hope you have something different than what we’ve already heard.
JAMES MILLER
MR. MILLER-I’m going to try.
MR. MC CABE-Okay.
MR. MILLER-I’m James Miller. I’m the husband of Deborah Miller and Caitlyn Miller who spoke earlier.
I won’t talk about the things that have already happened. The problem here is that these two applications
are being joined together.
MR. MC CABE-Just for discussion’s sake. We’re going to vote on them separate.
MR. MILLER-So the general theme is that they’re asking for 48 more seats over two properties. The two
properties need to be looked at separately. The existing San Souci property is a modification to an existing
Special Use Permit. I mean that’s what it is, and the point to be made is that based on all the information
that has been given already, the previous Special Use Permit is not working on issues of parking, on noise,
on light pollution, right across the board. They’re looking to increase the intensity of that use. What
they’re asking for doesn’t even come close to meeting the requirements that are in the Zoning Ordinance
for that property. I can go point by point, but I think other people have done that. So switching to the
residential property, this is the introduction of a new Special Use Permit, okay. That’s the way it’s stated
in the application. So what they’re saying is they want to put commercial in an existing Waterfront
Residential use. This entails a change of the Zoning Ordinance, okay. I’m not an architect. I’m a city
planner. In your Ordinance, it goes in very specific manner explaining how one can apply for and obtain a
Special Use Permit. I do not see this application addressing any of those items.
MR. MC CABE-Because that’s not our purview. We have nothing to do with Special Use.
MR. MILLER-Yes, but.
MR. MC CABE-So what we’re going to pass judgment on here, with the first property, is whether they
can, they’re supposed to have 44 parking spots, whether 17 is adequate.
MR. MILLER-That’s it.
MR. MC CABE-That’s what we’re going to do for the first one. The second one there are a number of
variances listed, okay, much more complex. Most of them are setbacks. So there’s nothing to do with
zoning here. There’s nothing to do with Special Use. It’s strictly area variance. That’s what they’re
requesting.
MR. MILLER-Sir, respectfully I would say that when you’re reviewing the property that is existing
residential, you have to look at that in terms of how a commercial use meets the requirements of that land
use.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
10
MR. MC CABE-That’s what the Special Use does. That Special Use allows them to have a restaurant in a
Waterfront Residential area.
MR. MILLER-I know, but if you’re here to grant a variance, what are you giving a variance to? You have
to look at that as a Waterfront Residential piece of property, which says that you cannot put a food service
use in that zone.
MRS. MOORE-That’s a density issue. So the Special Use Permit for the Town of Queensbury is handled
by the Planning Board.
MR. MC DEVITT-Right. It’s just not our purview. It’s not under our umbrella. If it were we’d talk
about it. It’s not under our umbrella. It’s a Planning Board issue.
MR. MILLER-Yes. I understand. So I was at the Planning Board meeting last night and they referred it
to you folks and then.
MR. MC CABE-So what happens is what we have to do is we have to pass judgment on the variances, and
then it goes to them, and they’re the ones who are in charge of the Special Use. They’re the ones who are
in charge of noise. They’re the ones who are in charge of lighting, and so all of that is handled by the
Planning Board. So what you went to was a public meeting, not a public hearing. So tonight is a public
hearing, and that allows you to speak, and that’s what you’re doing and you guys have taken a lot longer
than what would be normal. We’re going to be here until midnight because there are a bunch of other
cases besides this.
MR. MILLER-Right, but this is very important to us.
MR. MC CABE-Sure, and I understand that. That’s why I’m giving you some leeway here, but I’ve got to
kind of keep things contained, too.
MR. MILLER-So let me wrap up what I have to say.
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
MR. MILLER-For the San Souci property there’s current problems that are not being met. They’re looking
to intensify that use and create more problems. We’re Waterfront Residential property. I believe that
you have to review that as a Waterfront Residential property. Any changes that introduce commercial
use to that property have to be done by a new Special Use Permit. Thank you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. Go ahead.
JANET STASIO
MS. STASIO-I’d just like to read my letter that I sent to both Boards. I’d like it on the record.
MR. MC CABE-So, Roy, do we have a letter from?
MR. URRICO-We have a total of 38 letters sent in.
MS. STASIO-I’m Janet Stasio.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. So you’re going to read your letter rather than Roy.
MS. STASIO-Janet Stasio. As a neighboring resident at 95 Mason Road, Cleverdale, New York, {the Sans
Souci has an address of 92 Mason Road on some internet advertisements), I am writing to object strongly
to the above applications. If the proposals, special permits, and variances are granted, I believe they will
negatively affect the environment and character of the local community. For decades the Sans Souci was a
tavern for indoor eating and drinking and should remain that way. It should not be allowed to change the
atmosphere of the neighborhood with permanent outside seating, increase in parking spots, and other
modifications that that would bring about. The Pandemic constraints influenced the San Souci being
allowed to have limited, temporary outside dining, but this was not granted for permanency. Currently,
even without the allowances, there’s unwanted noise, including a constant irritating sound from their
compressor which can be heard in neighboring yards, outdoor lights left on at all hours without particular
reason, increase in traffic, litter in neighbors’ shrubbery, I’ve picked up beer bottles, smell of garbage from
their dumpsters in neighboring yards, I’m kitty-corner to this, need of extra vigilance on the road for
walkers and bikes because of the traffic and parking issues. I have had my summer home here on Mason
Road for over 40 years. In the past 25 years, I doubt I have been in the Sans Souci more than 5 times, the
last being the summer before the pandemic when I needed to enter to find the Sans Souci customer who
had parked in my parking spot in my back yard so I couldn’t even get into the grounds. He didn't even
apologize. Some of the charm of the Cleverdale community neighborhood is in its laid -back , residential
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
11
appeal, not being an extension of some of the Lake George Village activity. We don't want to lose our
historic, unique character. I even have one of the original books of how Cleverdale got its name from 1882.
I strongly urge you to decline the application, and I’m Janet Ruether Stasio. You’ve heard my name
mentioned by neighbors for things that they’ve found people on my property. Thank you very much for
your time.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. So anybody else? Go ahead.
GREG TERESI
MR. TERESI-Good evening. My name’s Greg Teresi. I’m a resident of the Town of Queensbury and a
member of the east side lake community and a particular fan, believe it or not of this restaurant. I’ve got
many friends that live in this area. I have many friends that frequent it. I have many friends that have
moved into Cleverdale because of the fact that they have a restaurant. I understand that there’s two sides
to every story. There’s two perspectives on what should be allowed and what shouldn’t be allowed. The
truth of the matter is this restaurant has been here for years. The gentlemen that now own the restaurant
are trying to build on something that they’ve envisioned. They took over the restaurant because they knew
it was a vital part of the community. There are those of us that live here year round and love that
restaurant. We go there on the off season when the tourists aren’t there, and the guys that bought this
place said we want to keep that tradition going because we want to offer the residents of the east side of
the lake a place to go, a place to congregate, a place to call their own, a community. That’s exactly what
these gentlemen have done. They’ve invested a significant amount of money into this restaurant to try to
make it better, brighter, to make it the home that a lot of Cleverdale never had before. I’ve lived on
Cleverdale during the prior ownership and it was a mess. It wasn’t run well. It wasn’t respectful of the
community. The owners weren’t putting money into the property, and as a result it reflected poorly on
the finished product. That’s not what we have here before you today. These gentlemen are asking to
provide an outdoor experience that every restaurant in the Adirondacks has the ability to do. This is a
use that’s been granted time and time again and we’re asking that you give this restaurant the same ability
as any other. Are there concerns with respect to parking? Yes, I get that, noise, yes I get that, but can
there be a balance, can this Board provide a balance so that the restaurant can provide to the community
and the community can benefit from the restaurant? There’s no doubt in my mind. There is a happy
balance and I’m confident that this Board can find that. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. Anybody else?
LEN ROMEO
MR. ROMEO-I’m Len Romeo. I live at 282 Cleverdale Road. I remember we bought the house in 2016
and shortly thereafter the San Souci closed for a summer and it was a pretty bad thing for the residents.
We walk up there all the time. A lot of people walk up to the restaurant. Not everybody drives up to the
restaurant. I think it’s a good thing for the community. I think a lot of people look forward to it. I think
the people that own the restaurant right now, I think one of the guys is hustling the restaurant, he’s an
accountant. I don’t know why he wants to do it. It makes no sense to me. I wouldn’t do it if I were a
businessman, but he is and we just appreciate the place and obviously it’s been through a lot of owners and
it’s having trouble making it with 105 seating. Maybe if we gave them the extra seating they might be able
to succeed. So that’s something to take into consideration. I like the restaurant a lot. We go there a lot,
four, five times a week or so.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. Ma’am?
DEB MILLER
MRS. MILLER-I’m Deb Miller. I wasn’t going to speak tonight because speaking publicly is not my thing,
but I’d like to address what the gentleman just said. I live at 93 Mason Road. I border it on three
boundaries, the lot adjoining them, and I own the property across the street, the old Tide Crest hotel. He
just said that the San Souci is a wonderful place to go. I don’t deny that. He also said that he felt that
they should expand just to make it. I’d like to point out that there is a downstairs of the San Souci that is
perfectly capable of taking chairs and tables and feeding people that is still enclosed indoors. I have lived
there for 47 years. I moved there when I was 11. I’m the one who found Walter Evans dead under my dock
as a kid. I watched the San Souci burn down. I grew up there. That’s my home, and I have never had a
problem with the San Souci that couldn’t be handled, but it has never been an outdoor venue and now that
it has been an outdoor venue for one year, and no I did not complain. I did not complain because of COVID,
but believe me it bothered me every day. My windows were left shut all last summer because of the noise,
because of the smell and I don’t have air conditioning. I’m not a millionaire on Cleverdale. I’m a kid who
grew up there, and Cleverdale was not a place for millionaires. I do not wish to see outdoor seating. It
can flourish as it always has. People are saying that they went there as kids, that they enjoyed it, that they
don’t want to see it gone, and I agree, but it never existed outdoors. Never. And that changes the game
completely. Thank you.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
12
MR. MC CABE-Sure. Anybody else? So we have a bunch of written correspondence.
MR. MC DEVITT-You’ve got one.
MR. MC CABE-I’m sorry. I didn’t see you.
DAN COURTNEY
MR. COURTNEY-My name’s Dan Courtney. I’m a Queensbury resident. I’ve lived on Cleverdale for
years. I have a little different maybe perspective. I was on the Lake George Planning Board for seven
years. I was the person spearheading the outdoor seating on the Lake George sidewalks for the
restaurants. My occupation my whole life is owner/operators of restaurants, built them, operated them.
It took me two years to convince people that work with the Village to understand that people want to eat
outside. I’d send pictures, nice patios, and the business side of it, the reality is is that once we added the
seating outside to all these restaurants in the Village the insides declined quite a bit because people want
to be outside in order to survive. You’re in the Adirondacks in the summer, outdoor seating, what will
happen is the people, instead of inside they have no choice, they’ll eat outside. There’ll still be some inside,
but it’ll shift dramatically. When you go to the Village, you walk down, patios are packed, you go inside,
there’s not a lot of people in there. Nobody wants to eat inside. That’s just the reality of it. It’s my
profession. It’s what I do. So I understand also the people, listening to everybody, I get it, the parking,
the noise. The San Souci is extremely unique in the fact that for us it’s like a community center. Without
it I wouldn’t have met my girlfriend. I wouldn’t have met my best friends. I wouldn’t have, it’s just very
difficult to meet people, especially all the new people coming into Assembly Point, Cleverdale right now,
Pilot Knob. I mean, no offense, we don’t want them meeting by getting a letter from the Town of
Queensbury saying, hey, your neighbor’s going to do a project, this is how you’re going to meet them. Do
you approve or not. They don’t know who the heck they are. It’s nice to be able to meet people and that’s,
it really is. It’s kind of our community, but as far as the professional perspective, it’s critical to have
outdoor seating. How you guys balance it, that’s on you. I get that. Your job is to balance the community,
and my professional perspective is that less people would be inside, more people would be outside, and I
appreciate your time. Thank you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
DAVID HARTMANN
MR. HARTMANN-I’m David Hartmann. I live in Queensbury and I live on Assembly Point Road. So, no,
I don’t walk there. I’m not walking through 9L. I suppose some people do, but nobody can pass my house,
they’re driving to the San Souci, they get ride to the San Souci. I’ve only been here eight years, but that’s
a community. It’s fantastic. The Sans is a big part of that. The first time I went there, somebody worked
in there, they said how are you, Dave, Dave this is Paul. Paul lives on Assembly Point. Paul just bought a
house down the road from you. It’s a wonderful place. That’s the atmosphere. It goes well beyond the
Sans. I think it’s Queensbury in general. It’s a wonderful community. This is a local place. To go beyond
the restaurant aspect of it, they let the water quality associations meet there. They’ve opened up to
birthdays on off season times for some people in the community. Christmas wreath making in the
wintertime has gone on there. Just a lot of, they’re part of the community. So just consider that. They do
a lot for the community. It’s amazing. Thank you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
(Phone ringing)
MR. MC CABE-Hold on just a second. Hello. This is Queensbury Zoning Board of Appeals.. Sure. Go
ahead. So first you have to identify yourself. Go ahead.
BRAD THAYER
MR. THAYER--Sure. My name is I’m a resident directly across the street from the Sans on 89 Mason
Road. I’ll be really quick. The Chairman of this committee indicated that these were simple decisions,
straightforward, the first one being is the parking adequate. It’s clearly not. So I think there’s a pretty
clear answer there that no further variance would be granted. Secondly, you’re also considering whether
a property that is zoned as residential can be used as commercial and whether you want to grant a variance
to that .
MR. MC CABE-No, that’s not the issue here.
MR. THAYER-Okay. What is the issue, please.
MR. MC CABE-The issue or the property has already received a Special Use Permit to be commercial. So
that’s not something that we’re going to decide on.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
13
MR. THAYER-The residential property has been granted a Special Use Permit to be used as commercial?
MRS. MOORE-No. Mr. Thayer, the variance that’s being sought for the residential parcel is relevant to
the size of the parcel.
MR. MC CABE-So there’s no decision being made tonight on commercial or non-commercial use.
MR. THAYER-Okay. I understood what the Chairman said, that the second question was whether you
all would grant a variance on a residential property to be used as commercial land. I appreciate that
everybody has, that certain people have indicated that, you know, we shouldn’t look to close the Sans. I
don’t think anybody’s talking about closing the Sans. I also, take it from one of the previous speakers that
it’s a good idea to have outdoor seating for restaurants. That’s great. It’s worked well for the Lake George
Village. None of us chose to live in Lake George Village. We chose to live on Cleverdale, and I’ll leave it
at that. Thank you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. Sorry. Go ahead.
JEFF HOLDEN
MR. HOLDEN-My name is Jeff Holden. I live at 256 Cleverdale Road. Typically we’ll have guests over,
they’ll park in my yard then we’ll walk down to the Sans, and last year during COVID we always sat
outside. So I agree with Dan Courtney, you’ll probably see a shift in more people sitting outside than
inside, which I think the parking issue is a little bit overwhelming. And I hope the Board can come up
with some sort of balance that allows them to have some outside seating because we prefer it. That’s it.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. Thank you. Okay.
TIM COLLINS
MR. COLLINS-Sorry, I’ll be very brief. My name is Tim Collins. I live in North Queensbury. I grew up
in Cleverdale I’m a former owner of the Sans in the early 2000’s, and I think some of the things you hear
tonight are accurate in regards to it’s really a community gathering place. It’s really a place that brings
the community together. Jeff who just spoke, I remember when he bought his house. Where was your
first stop? The Sans. So it really does bring the community together. I think some of the parking issues,
I’ve seen them, I’ve worked at the Sans on and off since 1987. I currently work there two nights a week.
So I see it frequently, and I would say that the parking is, are there occasional parking issues, I would say
yes. Has it been overblown here tonight? In my opinion I would say yes, and as a former owner, I know
the struggles of owning a restaurant, and I certainly think that having the variance to operate the outdo or
space is warranted and may be helpful to the owners. Thank you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. Anybody else? Is anybody outside? Okay. So we have 38 letters.
MR. URRICO-Well what I’m going to say is that some people have already spoken on both sides. So in
total there have been 32 letters in support and 6 opposed, and generally all the points that have been made
in these letters were covered by people that were speaking. So again 32 in support, 6 opposed. And that’s
for both.
MR. MC CABE-You mean supporting the variances.
MR. URRICO-The Area Variance 28-2021 and Area Variance 32-2021. There were 32 letters in support of
granting them the variances and 6 opposed. They didn’t separate them into different variances.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. So let’s see. We’ve got a couple of hands here. The first person that I saw was the
lady with the grey top.
DEB MILLER
MRS. MILLER-I’m Deb Miller of 93 Mason Road, the one who shares three borders with the San Souci,
and I’d like to say when you say there are 36 in favor, none of those people are the people who are here
tonight saying that they own property that is within 1,000 feet of the San Souci, and I’d like to ask would
any of you want to live, and I said before, I like the San Souci. It’s always been indoors, but would you like
it if you lived in a community where they change the rules after 70 years. People bought the property
knowing the Sans was there. They knew it was inside dining. They pay their property taxes knowing
the Sans was across the street. The fact that they’re going outdoors is changing the entire ballgame, the
entire history of the San Souci and the people who are in favor of it are people who come and visit a couple
of times a week. They’re people that usually have summer residences there and they bring their friends
and it’s a fun place to party, and that’s wonderful inside, but these are not people who share borders or the
difficulties that come with the San Souci. Like I said I’m in favor of the San Souci and always have been.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
14
We bought our property there. My parents did. My grandparents did, and they knew that dining was
indoors. That’s the parameter. Now you are changing it.
MR. MC CABE-We aren’t doing anything.
MRS. MILLER-I know, but I’m saying that people who are in favor of it, they’re not the people who are
going to be affected by it. They’re the people who enjoy it, and that’s very different in terms of quality of
life.
MR. MC CABE-Well if they enjoy it, then it’s also affecting them, isn’t it?
MRS. MILLER-They’ve enjoyed it for all these years. They keep saying they’ve enjoyed it for years.
MR. MC CABE-So we heard you. So the lady with the sleeveless. I saw you next.
CAITLYN MILLER
MS. MILLER-Caitlyn Miller. I live at 93 Mason Road. My comments really feed off of my mother’s
comments. It’s lovely that so many people support the Sans. It really is. It’s a wonderful part of our
community. We are not asking for any of that to be taken away. All of these people can still come in and
meet with their friends at the Sans. All of these people can still come in and enjoy a burger and walk to
the Sans if they want to, but again to reiterate. They are not sharing their borders. They have not had my
entire lifetime of parking problems, of lighting problems, of noise problems. It’s not they that are being
woken up in the middle of the night when there’s a loud conversation in the parking lot. It’s not they who
have to pay for the new fence on their property when people pa rking at the Sans hit it as they leave after
having a few too many drinks. This is really something where, I love that there’s so much support for the
Sans, but it really should be taken into consideration, those of us who live right next door because it really
is a completely different scenario. I don’t think any one of you would sign up to live across the street from
the Garrison or any of the night clubs in Lake George and we’re talking about it like it’s the same
community, and it’s not. It’s a residential community that we all hold very close to our hearts. We’re not
asking to take anything away from the residents who already enjoy the Sans. We are just asking for once
to consider the people who live next door. Thank you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure. The lady in the yellow?
AUDIENCE MEMBER-I was just going to say the same thing.
MR. MC CABE-The same thing. Okay. So, Jon do you have anything to add?
MR. LAPPER-Just to sum up. As you guys know, you don’t get 32 letters of support on anything. People
usually only show up if they have something to complain about, and if you look at the addresses, these are
all people in the southern basin of Queensbury, Pilot Knob, Cleverdale, Assembly Point, everyone if you
look at where they are. So that’s not true. This is a resource that is important as a gathering spot for
everybody in that area. Yes, there are different impacts than if it were a house, but everyone knew that
when they moved there. The restaurant preceded everybody. I live next to the Community College.
There are times of the year where there’s a lot of traffic, but there are community benefits, and when you
live next door to something that has wider benefits you put up with some more impacts, but this is not a
young restaurant. This is not a wild restaurant. I mean if somebody throws a beer bottle that’s ridiculous
and you shouldn’t do that, but you can’t criticize the owners of the restaurant because somebody finds a
beer bottle. That’s not the kind of place it is. It’s old white haired guys like me. It’s not kids. It’s not a
nightclub. It’s a tavern, but it’s an important place, as I think you’ve heard tonight, and the outdoor dining
is a really nice thing to have. It’s not hooting and hollering and we’re not asking for music outside and
we’re not asking for that parcel to be commercial, restaurant. It’s just that little paver patio area.
MR. HENKEL-That creates a whole lot of problems. The wind blows. Things are going to blow off the
table. Like you said, there’s not bottles out there, but it’s just bottles, people drinking at tables, yes bottles
can be thrown where if it’s inside you’re not going to get bottles thrown outside, papers aren’t going to get
blown around.
MR. LAPPER-I think we can suggest a couple of mitigation, now that we’ve heard the neighbors. I think
we can talk about a fence to enclose that area. Like I said we’ve started, it’s in the center of that area with
parking on both sides. So there are some things that we could do to add ress the issues that were raised,
to give people, give the Board some more comfort. Right at the top of the area where the patio is, we
talked about it, do a stockade fence there. So no one would be looking at it and nothing would get blown
away. So there are plenty of things we could talk about.
MR. HENKEL-I’ve been there numerous times, Jon. It’s a fun place to go. I enjoy it, but I don’t live next
door.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
15
MR. GAZETOS-I’ve got to show you one thing. You have to read this. This is a lett er that was sent out
to the people not next door, people in the neighborhood, and it says.
MR. MC CABE-First of all, identify yourself.
MR. GAZETOS-Nick Gazetos, 97 Mason Road, RE: Sans Souci, Special Use . I’m going to read this fast.
Okay. It says, Dear Chairman Traver, McCabe and Board members, and it tells you how to fill this in. We
strongly support the approval of 24 permanent outdoor dining seats at Sans Souci restaurant. We want
the Planning and Zoning Boards to know The Sans supports the entire Lake community in Queensbury as
a local gathering place which has functioned as such for over 100 years. The patrons are mostly residents
who understand that parking can be limited and many patrons walk or carpool or park two-deep on the
Sans property. During the COVID pandemic, temporary outdoor seating worked out very well and there
was no excess noise or area impact. We urge the Boards to approve the Applications. This was the
propaganda that was sent out to everybody but the people next door, okay. This is the propaganda and
you got the letters. This is the form, all right, and I can give this to you.
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
MR. GAZETOS-My brother signed that and he felt hoodwinked afterwards, and he’s a big patron of the
Sans, and he said, hey, they didn’t say anything about 48. They said 24. That’s what it says.
MR. MC CABE-So at this particular time I’m going to close the public hearing.
PUBLIC HEARING CLOSED
MR. MC CABE-And I’m going to poll the Board, and I’m going to start with Cathy. First of all, we’re going
to address two separate issues here. So the first we’re going to address the issue of the 333 Cleverdale.
MR. URRICO-Can I ask Jon a question?
MR. MC CABE-Sure.
MR. URRICO-A few years ago, and I’ve been on the Board for a long time. So it may be longer than a few
years ago, the Sans Souci came before us and asked to have the parking lot used. Was that for outdoor
dining? Was it for a waiting area? What was it for?
MR. LAPPER-It was for a waiting area. That was a prior owner.
MR. URRICO-Yes. So that was when you were granted relief for the use of the parking lot.
MR. LAPPER-I think that was a time when the holding tanks were put in instead of the septic field, and I
think that was a series of upgrades that happened at that point and that was a request for an outdoor
seating area.
MR. URRICO-Was it used for dining before last year?
MR. LAPPER-No.
MR. URRICO-Was the second lot used for dining outdoors last year?
MR. LAPPER-No. It was never for outdoor.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. So first we’re going to address 333 Cleverdale which is basically the, no, that’s the
restaurant. The parking spaces.
MRS. HAMLIN-Okay. All right.
MR. MC CABE-So they’re required 44 but they only have 17 available.
MRS. HAMLIN-And my form says 40, but maybe that’s elsewhere. I think that’s a big ask. So I’m a no.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. So, Jim?
MR. UNDERWOOD-The outdoor seating is a complete departure from the currently existing Special Use
Permit, and I think that the addition of taking away parking spaces to create that is the wrong direction
we should be going in. I think that the neighbors have substantiated that there has always been problems
and everybody recognizes the problems, the long term effect of too many people arriving at the same time
at the Sans at certain times of the year when it’s very oversubscribed, but I think at this point in time it
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
16
would be wrong for the Board to approve this request and I don’t think the Board an approve the request
for outdoor seating because it’s a grand departure from what’s already existing.
MR. MC CABE-Roy?
MR. URRICO-I think everybody has to take a step back here. For one thing we just went through two
years of hell and we’re still going through it. We don’t know what the situation will be, you know, a
month from now or a year from now. So we have to be very careful about making changes to zones and
variances for things that didn’t exist prior to last year. Because last year was an exception. We did things
that we never did before and that includes restaurants. They had to survive. People going to restaurants
had to do things differently. So I don’t think we should be making changes right now that’ll be permanent
beyond this year. Hopefully we won’t have to live through what we lived through the last couple of years,
but if we make a change now, if we grant this variance, we’re going to live with it permanently. It will be
a permanent change that may not be acceptable any longer after this summer, but beyond that I think
squeezing in more people into .27 acres plus with the permeability and parking issues that it has, I think it
would be wrong and I would be against it.
MR. MC CABE-John?
MR. HENKEL-Like I said before, I like going to the Sans. It’s a great place. I’d love to see outdoor seating
there. It would be a little bit more fun to go to, but I’m not going to stop going there just because they
don’t have the seating outside, and I don’t live right there, but I boat around there and I do walk from Harris
Bay Yacht Club and do enjoy it, but I just don’t think it’s fair for the people that live right there to change
what’s been going on there for 100 years. So I would not be on board as is.
MR. MC CABE-Ron?
MR. KUHL-I mean I don’t yacht around there the way you do. I also like the restaurant, but, you know,
it is what it is what it is, and what I find is the people that come out and talk are the ones that we, I mean,
whether it’s 32 for and 6 opposed , those are the people, anybody can sign their name. When I was
presented with this, I looked at this and I remember going to that restaurant, and I do sympathize with
the gentleman that talked about outdoor seating it causing more people to come. I got that. I go to other
restaurants that don’t have outdoor seating and wish they had it, too, but this restaurant is an indoor
seating restaurant. We had to go and give the Recovery Grill a variance for parking, and how much asphalt
is in front of that place. Here you have 17 parking spaces, and if we increase the capacity by, it’s not 50%,
it’s something less, you know, how many more people are going to come, and it’s not right. So I mean we
state in our words that the Board also finds that the variance request under consideration is the minimum
necessary. That doesn’t work. So I’m totally against it.
MR. MC CABE-Brent?
MR. MC DEVITT-One of the first times my wife and I went out on the lake last season was a tough time
in the area. It was a tough time in the country. COVID was going on. Everybody was stressed out,
businesses were struggling, restaurants were really struggling, car guys were struggling, contractors were
struggling. We sat outside and we had a meal, and I enjoyed it, I really did. There were two tabl es that
were sitting outside, us and another one. It was not busy. It may very well have gotten busy later in the
season. It was not busy then. I fully appreciate both sides of this issue. I fully appreciate the history of
the Sans. I used to have a very good friend that still lives in Takundewide and we used to take a golf cart
down, probably for good reason, and we really enjoyed the place. This has nothing to do with my feelings
of the Sans, the success that I want the Sans to have. I realize the difficulties which are inherent in the
restaurant industry. I realize the difficulties that are inherent in a seasonal business. I get it. I know it’s
a tough nut to crack, but my issue here is it has been an indoor place, and we are now trying to change the
game, and I can’t be part of that and what I’ve tried to do here over the last hour and a half is figure out a
happy medium. I’ve tried to figure out a way to broker a deal. How do we put up a fence, as Attorney
Lapper indicates? How do we maybe limit the hours was something I was coming up with to broker a
deal to find a happy balance as Mr. Teresi in the back here said, and I’ve tried to do that, but I’m not coming
up with one and I know as hard as I’ve tried to do that I ultimately have to fall on the side of what is right
for the contiguous property owners, what is right for the folks that live there year round, and so I am
against it, and it’s not that I’m against it because I’m anti-Sans. I am very pro-Sans. I’m looking forward
to dining there this year, but I will be a no on this, Mr. Chairman.
MR. MC CABE-So the issue here is if we okay, for the first property, 333, the outside tables, then that
would require 44 parking spaces, and we only have 17, and we’ve okayed reduced parking spaces before,
but not to this extent. Forty-four to seventeen is a big stretch. Now in defense of that, there’s not a place
that you can go on Cleverdale Road where parking isn’t an issue and where the neighbors complain about
the other neighbors taking their parking spaces, and the summer residents coming in and taking the
parking spaces. So I can’t support that reduction, 44 to 17.
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
17
MRS. HAMLIN-Can I ask a quick question? Are we only voting on the parking on this 333 Cleverdale, r
is there an issue?
MR. MC CABE-Yes, the first time it’s just 333, then we will have to go to 337. They’re two separate
applications.
MRS. HAMLIN-Where it says relief permeability, that’s not an issue?
MR. MC CABE-Permeability determined is not an issue because they’re not changing permeability.
MR. MC DEVITT-Just parking.
MRS. HAMLIN-Okay.
MR. LAPPER-So before we get to a vote, I’m not used to seeing zero to seven, but we came in here knowing
that the neighbors were not going to be happy about this, and I’ve got some suggestions to mitigate this
further than what we’ve asked for the Board to consider. So one is to reduce it to just 24 tables on the
paved area in the center, get rid of the picnic table area, the parking, but what we also cou ld do is say that
we’re not increasing the number of tables on the whole site because if they were going to be outside, then
we wouldn’t be using the downstairs. So we keep it at the same number of seats that we have now. That
way there’ll never be any more than what’s there, but we’d like to have 24 outside because in the summer
it’s nice to sit outside.
MR. MC CABE-Well then that wouldn’t’ require any action from us then.
MR. LAPPER-No outdoor seating.
MR. MC CABE-That’s Special Use. That’s part of the Special Use. That’s not what we’re talking about
here. All we’re talking about with the property 333 is 44 parking spaces are required but only 17 are
provided.
MR. LAPPER-You’re correct on 333, but 337.
MR. MC CABE-We haven’t approached 337 yet.
MR. LAPPER-All right. My question is whether the Board would feel more comfortable if we limited it
to the total of 24 outdoor and that we reduce the number of indoor. If it’s raining everybody’s indoors, but
if the weather’s nice and they’re outdoors they can’t have more people. It’s just nice to have outdoor
seating. We certainly can limit the hours.
MR. UNDERWOOD-He’s got to withdraw the whole application.
MRS. MOORE-So the idea of utilizing the, not utilizing indoor space seating but allowing outdoor seating
also would trigger that variance because you’re also, because of the seating.
MR. MC CABE-Well how would we ever enforce it?
MRS. MOORE-You’re at 17. That’s what you’d be granting.
MR. MC CABE-Well how would we ever enforce taking away one table inside to add one table outside?
MRS. MOORE-So your relief that’s being requested is to maintain 17 parking spaces for a number of tables
that are being proposed that will be outside during the summer months.
MR. MC CABE-And so what you’re saying is that if you gave up those tables inside then you wouldn’t
need 44 spaces.
MR. LAPPER-Right. Just what’s there.
MR. MC DEVITT-But to your point, it would have to be tied to a definable metric. Saturday night in
August when it’s jamming in there, how are we going to know if a table went from inside to outside or vice
versa? There’s just no way of tracking that.
MR. MC CABE-Yes, but if we grant you a variance here, we have to have some way to know that variance
could actually be enforced. We aren’t going to have Codes an Enforcement up there every weekend.
MRS. MOORE-So in that case if you were to move toward something like that, I would ask that the Board
table so we can evaluate what those enforcement abilities are. I don’t know them off the top of my head
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
18
and I would prefer to have it evaluated to discuss with the Zoning Administrator and staff as well as the
applicant.
MR. MC CABE-All right. So we’ll take your proposal into consideration, but we’ll ask you to table at this
particular time.
MR. LAPPER-That’s fine.
MR. URRICO-I just want to say that the only way I would consider any adjustment would be if the 337
gets taken off the table.
MR. LAPPER-Well, Roy, the only issue with 337, if you just look at the map, is that that’s where the seating
area is.
MR. URRICO-Well you’re saying that for this property, 333, you have.
MR. HENKEL-Four picnic tables.
MR. LAPPER-Yes.
MR. URRICO-So that, isn’t that your 24?
MR. LAPPER-I was proposing to take the picnic tables.
MR. HENKEL-Yes, there’s six at the table.
MR. URRICO-On that first property.
MR. MC CABE-Well we’re taking up too much time. Let’s table this one and we’ll move on to the next
one.
MR. LAPPER-And what Roy said, if that was important to you, we had re-configure the pavement area
and put these 24 seats on the restaurant site.
MR. URRICO-I’m not even saying I will agree to it. I’m just saying the only way I will consider it is if the
second application variance was gone.
MR. LAPPER-We’ll look at re-configuring.
MR. HENKEL-So when are we tabling it to?
MR. MC CABE-To June?
MR. LAPPER-Yes.
MRS. MOORE-I apologize, my June agenda has, I try to be a little bit flexible, but there’s a lot of
applications and unfortunately I would move it to the July agenda.
MR. MC CABE-Okay. So table it to July with pertinent changes to be submitted to the Board by the
middle of June.
MR. HENKEL-Okay.
The Zoning Board of Appeals of the Town of Queensbury has received an application from 333 Cleverdale
LLC (San Souci). Applicant requests approval of outdoor seating area which includes existing four 6-
person picnic tables and one 4-person table on the restaurant parcel and five top tables for 4 persons each
on the adjoining parcel. Site plan for modification of an approved plan and modification of the special use
permit (SUP 45-2009). Relief requested for permeability and parking.
MOTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 28-2021 333 CLEVERDALE LLC (SAN SOUCI),
Introduced by John Henkel who moved for its adoption, seconded by Brent McDevitt:
Tabled until the first meeting in July 2021 and any new information submitted by the middle of June 2021.
Duly adopted this 19th day of May, 2021, by the following vote:
AYES: Mr. Urrico, Mr. Henkel, Mrs. Hamlin, Mr. Kuhl, Mr. Underwood, Mr. McDevitt, Mr. McCabe
NOES: NONE
(Queensbury ZBA Meeting 05/19/2021)
19
MR. MC CABE-Okay. So now we have the issue of 337 which is floor area, permeability, setbacks and
then restaurant use in a five acre where only .15 exists. So we have.
MR. LAPPER-Why don’t we table that as well.
MR. MC CABE-Okay.
MR. HENKEL-That’s also until July?
MRS. MOORE-Correct.
The Zoning Board of Appeals of the Town of Queensbury has received an application from 337 Cleverdale
LLC. Applicant proposes to utilize a portion of the 0.15 acre parcel for additional outdoor seating for the
adjoining San Souci restaurant which includes 5 top tables for four people at each table. The location is an
existing hard surface area of about 407.2 sq. ft. of pavers used as a waiting area for customers. Variances
are required for the proposed use and some previous project activities that had not received approvals. The
site has an existing detached garage and deck that require review. Site plan and Special Use permit are
required to add a restaurant use to the existing parcel with a home on it. Relief requested for floor area,
restaurant use, permeability and parking.
MOTION TO TABLE AREA VARIANCE NO. 32-2021 337 CLEVERDALE LLC , Introduced by John
Henkel who moved for its adoption, seconded by Ronald Kuhl:
Tabled until the first meeting in July 2021 and any new information submitted by the middle of June 2021.
Duly adopted this 19th day of May, 2021, by the following vote:
MRS. MOORE-Just for clarification that’s the first meeting in July.
AYES: Mr. McDevitt, Mr. Kuhl, Mrs. Hamlin, Mr. Henkel, Mr. Urrico, Mr. McCabe
NOES: NONE
ABSENT: Mr. Underwood
MR. HENKEL-So they’re both going to be tabled to the first meeting in July.
MRS. MOORE-Yes.
MR. MC CABE-So our next application AV 30-2021, Town Fair Tire.