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1993-03-04 --- -- QUEENS BURY PLANNING DEPARTMENT TRAVEL CORRIDOR STUDY INFORMATION AND PUBLIC MEETING MARCH 4, 1993 INDEX Regarding Route 149. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES '- '......." QUEENSBURY PLANNING DEPARTMENT TRAVEL CORRIDOR STUDY INFORMATION ARD PUBLIC MEETIRG MARCH 4. 1993 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT PLANNING BOARD ZONING BOARD TOWN BOARD TIMOTHY BREWER CORINNE TARANA THEODORE TURNER JOYCE EGGLESTON FRED CARVIN ROBERT KARPELES MIKE BRANDT SUSAN GOETZ NICK CAIMANO .BETTY MONAHAN PLINEY TUCKER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLARNER-ARLYNE RUTHSCHILD PLANNER-SCOTT HARLICKER TOWN HISTORIAN-MARILYN VANDYKE STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI MR. MARTIN-I see a lot of, hopefully, friendly faces out there, but for those of you who don't recognize me, my name is Jim Hartin. I'm the Director of Planning and Zoning here in the Town. and what we're going to start to do tonight is update the Master Plan for the entire Town, and what we thought would be a good place to start, this was as a result of a directive from the Town Board primarily, would be to start with the Route 149 Corridor, and the purpose, then, of this meeting is to start off the revision of the Master Plan process, and what we're going to hope to do is get as much input from the community as we can, especially the people who live directly on the road. Hopefully all of you have received a survey asking for your written responses. We've been receiving them in the office on a pretty regular basis, and if you have any tonight, by all means, hand t~em in, but what was the driving force behind us really starting in this area was that we seemed to, over the last few months or the last year or two, have seen a lot of requests for zone change and that type of thing, and really some projects have been more of a controversial nature. So we thought this would be a good place to start and see if we could clean those things up, and another factor about this road is it's really kind of unique in that we're talking about a major east/west corridor here. Literally thousands of cars a day on it, but yet it cuts through a rural part of the Town, and the Adirondack Park Blue Line bisects it, virtually at the center. So there's a couple of unique characteristics to this road, and it makes it sort of a challenge to make sure we do what's right with it, and do what the people would like to see done. So that's what we're going to start with tonight, and the purpose of the meeting is to get your direct input and your active input tonight. We're going to have very little to say, from the standpoint of what we'd like to propose to the Town Board eventually, or what we think might be a plan for it, but more to just listen to you, and don't be bashful. Step right up and tell us what you think, because I sat on the Planning Board for a couple of years, prior to taking this position, and there's nothing more frustrating than to hear a citizen or a constituent come up and say, well, I didn't know this was happening next to my house. I didn't know this was the zoning. I didn't know this was proposed, and now the barn door is shut and the horse is gone. So now is the time to be active, and don't be afraid to speak up, because this is only going to be as good as we make it, or as the citizens make it, and I really encourage you to come up. This is not anything real formal. We're just looking for your input and a real open exchange of ideas from you, and I want to limit the meeting if we can. I know there's a snowstorm coming. and nobody likes to stay out real late for these things. So we were thinking 1 - -- of cutting this off at 9:30, if that's not a real limiting factor. I don't think it should be. We'll have a few minutes here, maybe a half hour to make a presentation about the current status of the road, things we've come to find and notice, some information that we have, and hopefully you'll learn something from that, but primarily we want to hear from you, and over the next three weeks, Scott and Arlyne will be developing a plan for the road, and then we'll meet again, on the 25th of March, at 7:30 in this same room, with this same kind of format, and we'll have a draft proposal for you at that time for a plan for this area. It may be some new zoning districts or whatever, but Arlyne Ruthschild here to my right and Scott Harlicker here to my left, Assistant Planners of the Town, they'll be the one's who'll be developing that plan, and so with that said, I'll sit down, and I'll hand it over to Marilyn VanDyke, our Town Historian. She's gOing to give us just a little bit of a historical background on the road, and then we'll move on to Arlyne and Scott who'll take us through some more demographic information on the road and the current land uses today. So I'll hand it over to Marilyn for a little historical perspective. MRS. VANDYKE-Thank you. It's a rather new job for the Historian to be involved in the planning process, and it's also very exciting because whenever something new or when change is being envisioned, we can now look at what happened in the past and put that into play with all of the plans that we might make for something that happens in the future, and I think that that can be a useful part of the process. My findings tonight are somewhat preliminary, and I hope that some of you may come forth, after you hear what I have to say, and add more to the history of the road i tsel f. Route 149 is a part of the American Wilderness of the Northeast in its earliest days. The Native Americans, travelers this area in a west to east direction, probably following the natural lay of the land, and using the spring that was at the base of what we now call Ox Bow Hill. With the arrival of the white man, this area was still off the beaten path, because the military road was cut through slightly to the south of this area for travel from Fort Edward to Lake George. In 1762, when the patent was granted to Queensbury, lots were drawn, and the most northerly lots were developed along what probably was the southern part of Route 149, and they belonged to people by the name of Merritt, Berling, Dobson, Haddock, Smith, and Abraham Wing. Most of the early residences in the Town were built along pathways that generally ran in a north to south direct, rather than east to west, and so this road developed more slowly. During the American Revolution, most of the residents who were here in the early days of Queensbury left to avoid the ravages of the Tories and military campaigns. In the year 1777, one notorious Tory by the name of Edward Jessup from Jessup's Landing, which is Corinth, 10 miles away from here, was forced to flee from his home, with the Whigs from Ballston Spa in hot pursuit. The story says that he fled across Queensbury via a road from the upper picket post near what was the Halfway House, to Fort Ann, and on to Skensbourgh, and thence to the camp of General Burgoine. This may be the first time that there was a definitive reference to this road in history. After the revolution, log houses became frame houses, with small farms, sawmills and grismills developing throughout Queensbury. There were 20 mills on the streams in the Town. The Cider Mill Pond was the nearest site of water in what was to become Route 149 and the Cider Mill Pond is still here today, and it's a tributary to Glen Lake. Queensbury developed as a farming and a lumbering community with a series of small neighborhoods or hamlets. On the west end of Route 149, we had what was called the French Mountain Settlement, and this was a very defined area by the year 1876, according to Beers Atlas. This little hamlet consisted of residences, a one room school house, a story, a toll gate, the Halfway House, which was a stopping place for the stage coach run from Glens Falls to Warrensburg, a sawmill, and a tannery. There were other residences out along the road that belonged to people by the name of Buckby, Lattimore, Hendricks, Ray, Seelye, Washburn, McCarthy, Mack, Moynihan, and Duren. In the year 1966, Mildred Lackey, who is still an elder, a resident of our 2 -- -..-' Town, wrote a letter to the Department of Transportation, and she described Route 149 as one of the oldest roads in our Town, having been built prior to the year 1810, and the reason she knows that is that her home was built that year. She said that the road was buil t for horses, oxen, and pedestrians. and in 1926, when she first came to Queensbury, she said this was a typical, rural, winding, narrow, and impassable road. In 1937, during the Depression, this road was widened and paved, 4.48 miles of the road was developed 18 feet wide, with a gravel and sand surface. The road became known as the Farm To Market Road because it was most likely a part of the designation given to the roads designed to open up lands, areas for farmers to get products to market and many of these roads were funded through WPA funds. I'm still trying to determine if this road, indeed, obtained that type of funding, but I believe that it did. In 1948, oil and stone was put on the road, and on April the 12th, 1957, the County turned the road over to the State of New York, and it became a State Road in 1957. TOday, the road contains a mixture of private residences, summer homes, and businesses. It's a maj or east/west artery between Vermont, via Route 4, and the Adirondack Northway, designed to connect urban, industrial, and recreational areas. There are areas of private residences with difficult on/off exits. There are two large recreation parks on the road, and there are three junctures of the road with business hubs. First, there's the juncture with Route 9, where there are restaurants, stores, and a boat shop. There's the juncture with Bay Road, where there's restaurant, antique shop, real estate office and gift shop, and the juncture with Ridge, where there are two gas stations, two restaurants, a convenience store, a golf course, and a garden store. Just some matters of historic interest that we might want to note, as we are thinking about zoning along the road, first the site of the old Halfway House, which is an unmarked historical area, which we might want to mark at some time, the Cider Mill Pond, which is still there. The Warren County Bikeway Bridge, I learned today, was installed in the year 1979, which is now history, and it took 20 minutes to put that bridge over Route 149. They very happily told me that up at the Recreation Department this afternoon. The natural spring at the bottom of Ox Bow Hill, which I understand now is closed to the public due to the possibility of gerardia, if you were to drink of those waters. There are many old residences along the road, and we may want to continue our work defining those. Some, I know, are the Breen House, the Potter House, the Martindale home. which is over 200 years old, and Mildred Lackey's home, which was built in 1810. There's another interesting thing that happened on Route 149, at the bottom of the Ox Bow Hill, at the site of the sand bank, in 1977, the body of Vicky Moonos, who had been murdered in Lake George, was deposited in this gravel bank, and today this remains one of the unsolved murders in Warren County. The other things that we might want to learn about over time are accidents that may have occurred along the road, of which there have been numerous ones. We're always gathering history, and I'd be happy to gather any more history that anybody else has about the road. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Thanks, Marilyn. My name is Arlyne Ruthschild. As Jim said, I work for the Planning Department, and I'm going to talk a little bit about the more current history, particularly about development on the road, and also a little bit about physical geographic, just to give you a background of what the land is like. This is since the new Ordinance came in, and this is the study that we did. As you can see, this is a bar graph of the BUilding and Sign Permits, specifically that were issued to residents, commercial people on Route 149 since 1988. There were 15 in '88 and 10 in '89 and '90. '91 had 11 and 12, and we also broke them down, of the type that there were. There were 18 residential permi ts issued, 24 commercial permits issued, 14 signs, and one demolition and one commercial residential bUilding permit that was issued during that period of time. I don't have as exciting current as Marilyn had for the past, but this just gives you a better idea of the type of development that has been going on at this point, up 'til this point. For a little physical geography. 3 ~ -- this is basically information about the physical terrain that's adjacent or contiguous to the Route that would have some effect on considerations for development. This shows bedrock, depth to bedrock. Bedrock which is less than 60 inches from the surface may require blasting when constructing roads or building foundations, and necessarily increase construction costs, obviously. We're very fortunate, or you're very fortunate in that area that the entire area is greater than 60 inches to bedrock, which is a constraint or a consideration when building. Percolation rates, I'm sure anybody who has built a house is aware of the concerns of putting in a septic system, and percolation rates refer to how the specific soil that's in the specific area passes fluids through it, and with a septic system, you don't want the fluids from the house or the residence to go too fast into the land, because it doesn't clear out pollution or anything that should not be in the land beneath it. As it is Number One, that would be two inches to six inches an hour, and that's a high, the best that you could have. That would be areas here, anywhere where you would see One, One and Two are the best percolation rates to have. This, of course, is a line of the road. These are the areas that would have, we'll say two. The least best, or the most unsuitable, is a very fast percolation rate, which would be greater than 20 inches an hour. Along the road. where that shows, is basically over here, and anywhere where you would have fours. Here's five down here in the southern part of the western, and Route 149 Corridor is characterized by an array of percolation rates, as I have shown you here, from highly suitable to unsuitable, and it also should be noted that, obviously, specific pockets within an unsuitable area or a moderately suitable area can be suitable for a septic system, but this is just generally what it's been found, the types of soils, that's how they determine it. Another constraint on development is depth to high water table, and depth to seasonal high water table, like depth to bedrock, presents constraints on development, installation, once again, of septic systems, require that depth to high water table be four feet below the sand filled to trench, and less than four feet indicates that an alternative to septic disposal should be considered, and according to the graph here, that greater than 72 inches is the most sui table. Eighteen to seventy-two is moderate, and obviously zero to eighteen would be from surface to eighteen inches below the surface, and zero would be unsuitable. It would be practically on the surface of the land. Number One, which is high suitability, you can see, is here, always there, here. So most of the road has, or the land contiguous to the road, has sui table terrain, with a high water table that's greater than 72 inches during the high water season time. Slope, of course, is another consideration that puts constraints on development. This is a little bit talky here, but I'll try and get it to seem a little easier to understand. Slope describes the steepness or the gradient of the land. The steeper the slope, the greater the difficulty is presented for development, and of course the more costly. For the purpose of analysis of the slope and this diagram, zero to three percent is moderate suitability. Some times it's not suitable because zero percent means that it's flat and it tends to flood. Three to eight percent is highly sui table, and eight to fifteen is moderately suitable. Anything over 15 to 25 percent slope, anything over 25 certainly is not suitable for building. So, we'll just say zero to fifteen, which would include categories one, two, and three, two, just along the road, we'll say, two, two, here is two here also, and interspersed is one, four, which is somewhat low suitability because the gradient is steeper between 15 and 25 percent, five, which is in here, would be very steep and definitely unsuitable, or less suitable for development, and this is water resources, a little bit complicated, but water resources include streams, lakes, and ponds, underground aquifers, and ground or table water, which provide recreational opportunity, habitats for wildlife, and drinking water, of course, which we are very interested in having sufficient and clean drinking water. The somewhat cloudy map here shows a variety of water resources. This little line, here, which would be indicated here, there are a number of streams that either bisect 149 or are 4 - -- contiguous to it. Certainly they're all part of a watershed that would either go into ponds here, or lake land here, or be part of a watershed that goes further down into. DICK KILMARTIN MR. KILMARTIN-Excuse me. What's this pond that you've got marked, is it B? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. That just says that, B, this pond is good for bathing and swimming. MR. KILMARTIN-What is that pond? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-This is, Lake Sunnyside. MR. KILMARTIN-Lake Sunnyside? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. MR. KILMARTIN-Okay. I would like it if you would define everything on there, when it comes to water, please. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Okay. We'll do our best. Okay. Lake Sunnyside, Glen Lake is down here, or the northern part of Glen Lake. There are five streams that do not have names. I got in touch with the Department of Environmental Conservation. They recognize that there are streams here, but they don't have names. MR. KILMARTIN-They don't have names? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-They don't have names for them. MR. KILMARTIN-I'm sure they do have names. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-I'm sure. names. Well, perhaps you could give us the MR. KILMARTIN-No. names. I don't have the names, but I would like the MRS. RUTHSCHILD-So would I. MR. KILMARTIN-You're up here. You're explaining things to us. I would like to know just what is what. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Okay. Well, as I said, we did try and find out the names of the streams, but they're just unnamed. The local people probably have some good names for them. Okay. Some of the other areas, these areas just indicate watersheds, and a watershed, basically, is all the land that sheds precipitation, rain, snow. into a body of water, and the reason why this is an important thing to know is that you don't want to change too much the configuration of the land that sheds water into bodies of water. Otherwise you have a less amount of water going into it, the same thing with aquifers, which are underground bodies of water that provide you wi th your groundwater. The less area that you have open for recharging underground water, the less water there is underground for you to get for your well water. That's the importance of aquifers and the importance of permeability. This classification of water. and that's what these letters on there are. So. a water supply that's a Double A, here, which is a stream, close to the eastern end. would be a water supply stream AAT indicates it's water supply, and it's also trout habited, AAT, I'm sure we have one here. MR. KILMARTIN-Can you define these streams? MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Define them in what way? 5 -- '--'" MR. KILMARTIN-A name. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-No. I said I didn't have a name. MR. MARTIN-We'll try and find out. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes, we will. MR. MARTIN-We don't know tonight. MR. KILMARTIN-I mean, after all, you're presenting these things, you ought to have some kind of name for these streams. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Route 149 streams. MR. KILMARTIN-No. That doesn't do anything for me. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-That doesn't get it? MR. KILMARTIN-No, it doesn't. MR. MARTIN-Does anybody out there know the names for any of these streams? Some people have lived on this road quite a while. MR. KILMARTIN-I've lived up there 35 years, and I don't know the names of the streams. That's what I'm trying to figure out. MR. MARTIN-We'll continue to try and find out. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Okay. Another classification, of course, is B, which most of the streams and lakes and ponds have, that they're good for bathing and swimming, most of the streams and ponds and lakes are trout habited. I think that's the end of the geography lesson. MR. KILMARTIN-Well, I'm not very happy with it. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-This is Scott Harlicker who'll talk about land uses. MR. HARLICKER-Okay. What I'll start out with is we came up with a map, right here. The 149 Corridor is the black line running through here. This line. here, is the Adirondack Park line, and these purple lines here designate an area that is within the Lake George Critical Environmental Area. The yellow properties are vacant land, orange is residential, and the pink areas are considered commercial. The way we came up with this land use map, it was a combination of site visits, a window survey, driving down the road, and noting where the businesses were, the houses were, and what land was vacant, and we combined that with a check on the Tax Assessor's listings, how the land is listed as far as the Tax Assessor's Office goes. To break it down by, I guess you could do it by acreage, and also the number of parcels. We came up with a total of 121, approximately 121 parcels of land along the Route, and of those 121 parcels, 59 of them are residential, about 48 percent of them. JIM WELLER MR. WELLER-You mean they're residential, they're occupied as residential? MR. HARLICKER-Yes. They're listed as far as our survey goes and the Tax Assessor's Office goes, as residential. These are approximations. These aren't exact. I'm sure we're in error on probably a number of the pieces of property, and then of the pink parcels which are commercial, there was 22 of them. You could also break it down by acreage. The total number of acres along the road here, approximately 1893 acres. Of those 1893, 466 of them are in the orange. 6 "-... --- MR. KILMARTIN-Now what's the orange? MR. HARLICKER-Orange is residential. The orange parcels are residential, the yellow is vacant, and the pink is considered commercial. Commercial, this here is a golf course. This area here is the RV area, and this over here is, I guess it's the Finch Pruyn Gravel Pits, back up in there. Those parcels there make up, of the 545 acres that we considered commercial property. 471 of them are made up by these three property owners. If you eliminate the three big parcels there, it drops down to 74 acres is considered commercial use, and it's concentrated at the intersection here, like Marilyn said, of Ridge Road, Bay Road, and out here along Route 9. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-How far on the intersections? I mean, is there a limit, or. do you go two miles from an intersection, or? MR. HARLICKER-We concentrated on the roads. The study was done on the properties fronting Route 9. A further analysis will be done on roads going north and south on Ridge and on Bay. How far, we haven't really determined yet. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-Commercial impact carries a little bit, too. I mean, you've got that smelly dump, Finch Pruyn. You don't smell it where you live, or a noisy road or something, but a person that lives over there might. So, you've got to take that into consideration. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. We will, but this is just, we haven't done any analysis of the findings yet. This is just the raw data that we've gathered so far. Like I said, the Highway Commercial's here and here. I'll get into zoning a little bit now. ~ost of the property along the Route here is zoned residential, and residential three acres is the predominant zone, all along the Route here. This is all residential three acres, all this down along here, right in through here. This little area here is residential five acres, up through here where the golf course is. Out here on the western end of the road we've got quite a mix of zones. You've got Highway Commercial at the intersection. You've got Single Family Residential, which surrounds the Highway Commercial, and up in here, and you've also got a Land Conservation zone out this way. So it's quite a hodge podge of zones. Like you said, you've got the Highway Commercial right in here, the Single Family Residential SR-15, which is a 15,000 square foot lot size, is right in here, and that's primarily the Ledgeview Estates is located up in here, and then you've got the Recreational Commercial zone down here, which is the RV Park. You've got little areas of Waterfront Residential, which are adjacent to this, that surround Glen Lake, Dream Lake, and I guess that's all the Waterfront Residential that's shown on the map. I guess that's the brief land use. Does anybody have any questions on this? MR. WELLER-I'm going to suggest that you not do an oversimplification, here, of what these zones are and what these uses are. The way you've presented this, in my mind, is an oversimplification of painted areas you're calling commercial. MR. HARLICKER-Right. MR. WELLER-There's a distinct difference in those three different zoning, commercial areas. There's Land Conservation. There's Recreational Commercial, and there's Highway Commercial, and there's three distinct different uses. Be careful grouping them altogether and calling them commercial and dealing with them as a group as such. MR. HARLICKER-Right, but for just the fact for the display here, if you try to break it down into too many different categories, you just, you get too much information on there, and the map pretty much, granted, it's a simplification. It is. The land uses along 7 "---' -..-/ the Route are much more mixed. You've got the small businesses along here. You've got the greenhouse right in here. You've got restaurants, and you've got the whole mix. You've got the outlet stores down at this end. So you do have quite a mix, as far as the commercial uses go. MRS. MONAHAN-Scott, did you color those by use or by how they're actually zoned? MR. HARLICKER-By use. MRS. MONAHAN-By use. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. The result of our survey, and then looking at the Tax Assessors classifications. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-Would it be possible, and in my mind it should have been done with the letter we were sent, for everyone that lives on this highway to have a map that showed what the zoning is from the beginning of 149 over at Route 9, over to the Warren County, or the Washington County line? Then we can sit down at home, we know what is there presently, what the zoning is, and we can intelligently look at this thing ourselves. We come here and we look at that, and what Jim says, it's such a simplification that who can sit here tonight and give you any info? MR. HARLICKER-The problem with that, we considered doing that, but when you reduce the size of the maps, to a size that's mailable, the parcels and the zones become. GENTLEMAN IN THE AUDIENCE-You could have had them here to hand out, tonight, if they've got to be a little bit bigger than what is mailable. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. Good point. Any other questions, comments? Okay. I'll get into traffic just briefly here, too. Okay. What we've got here is traffic counts. The upper ones up here are actual traffic counts that were taken by Warren County in 1991. Those are daily traffic counts. Over here, we also have some traffic counts from. MRS. MONAHAN-Scott, when were they taken? There seems to be a big difference. MR. HARLICKER-1991. MRS. MONAHAN-What time of the year? MR. HARLICKER-DOT, they didn't say. The County's May and September, I believe, is when it was. They were taken September 12th, September 10th, September 10th, and the stretch from the Ridge Road to the County Line was taken on May 23rd. MRS. MONAHAN-So are those figures up there average, or are they? MR. HARLICKER-Actual daily counts. They put a counter on the road, and that's how many cars went by. MRS. MONAHAN-I realize that, but in order to get the count that's up there, they took these at different times, did they put those dates together and then divide it by the number of times they took them. MR. HARLICKER-From looking at this, I would say that they were given on that day only. They weren't taken over a period of days. MR. MARTIN-What happened, Betty, I think, was that the counter was moved every day to different points in the road. MRS. MONAHAN-I see. 8 ~ MR. HARLICKER-If you'll notice, here, there's quite a range. To give you a little background on the road, I guess. According to DOT, the road is 20 feet wide. and it has three foot shoulders. So it's a rather narrow road. There were several areas on our trip that we considered some, I guess, hazardous areas, areas of concern. One of them is right out here. As you look east towards, underneath the bike path there. Anybody pulling out of the shopping area, here, can see very little. Another point of concern was this area right in here. I believe it's Ox Bow Road, and then the Martindale Road intersection there. Visibility there, as I'm sure all of you know, is terrible. You've got the bend right up in here where it's pretty bad, and then this stretch in here, right where the hill, the bend in the road is. So those are some areas of concern. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-Are we going to straighten them out or anything? MR. HARLICKER-That's up to DOT. It would be great if they do it. Whether they will or not is anybody's guess. I believe they're scheduled for a road rehab. MR. MARTIN-The road is scheduled on the DOT schedule for a reconstruction, as they term it, in 1997, which, that's subject to great change, and another thing about the road is, as of April, it's going to be listed on the national highway system, which means that it's going to be held to a higher standard for that reconstruction, in terms of the radius of the curves, and the depth of pavement, because this road is viewed as a major interstate connector between the two States. So I think you're going to see the level of traffic on this road, if anything it will increase, and the width of the road, all of that will. MR. WELLER-When' s DOT going to recognize that this interstate connection and take actions to deal reconstruct it? is a major with that, MR. MARTIN-Well, that will start with this designation. There's very few roads that qualify for that designation as a national highway system, and once you're on that, you receive that designation, then you're removed from the criteria for competition for the highway improvement dollars. It doesn't have to compete. It automatically qualifies. So, I think that 1997 date may even move up with that kind of designation, and it's supposed to receive that in April of this year. MR. WELLER-Jim, I'm talking about an interstate type, divided highway, to connect Interstate 87 with the Thru way over in Fairhaven. Now this is a gap that's in our interstate system, that's a gap that DOT was going to deal with in the early 60's, and it was staked out at the foot of French Mountain at one time, and it was studied from Exit 17, up through Fort Edward, Hudson Falls, and Fort Ann. Now, they're never going to improve the right-of-way along 149 to meet with a correct interstate connection. MR. MARTIN-Well, there is no discussion that I'm aware of through the Glens Falls Transportation Counsel, which is the local group that speaks to DOT, there is no consideration at all of that type of thing. The only thing that is being considered is a reconstruction of this road over the current right-of-way. I've heard rumor of that, too, and there's no indication of that, and quite frankly, with the budget constraints as they are, I don't ever see a new road of that type happening, in the foreseeable future. MR. WELLER-Well, 1 do, and I'll tell you, it may be stretching your imagination somewhat, and Mike Brandt's sitting right in front of me. He may totally disagree with me, but I think when you see the power of Ned Harkness and Ron Stafford diminished, and Ron Stafford's power will diminish when he retires, his power in 9 -- Albany, that you'll see that those two men will stop their political campaigning to keep the skiers from being able to go up through Vermont, and when that happens, 149 will change drastically, because it'll no longer be the connection between the interstate that we have here and the one over in Vermont. MR. MARTIN-All I know are the facts. political factors into the discussion. You're introducing some MR. WELLER-This planning on 149 has got to recognize this. MR. MARTIN-All I know is there's no plans for that in any five to ten year plan that I've ever seen. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-What are these counts for, Jim, that they're showing? I mean, those were non peak counts. MR. HARLICKER-No. Those were periods for a 24 hour day. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-No. I mean the dates, September 10th, or 12th, or the beginning of May, they sure weren't when the skiers were headed for Vermont. MR. HARLICKER-Why the County picked those days. MR. MARTIN-We tried to get the counts taken right now, for tonight and for the study, and they're reluctant to put the meters out because the snow plow. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-What I mean, why are we using these figures? MR. HARLICKER-Those are the only figures we have. MR. MARTIN-That is the only data we have available, and we'd like to retake them this summer, when the winter isn't a limiting factor. Right now we couldn't do that. MR. HARLICKER-These are the most up to date. MR. KILMARTIN-You all think this is a funny thing. I don't think it's funny at all. There's a lot to be considered, here. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Correct. MR. MARTIN-That's right. MR. KILMARTIN-We as hmdowners that own land on 149, we have a right to know what anybody has got, I don't care if it's the State, Town, or County, or whatever, to know what the hell they've got envisioned here. It's about time they let the people know what's going on. MR. MARTIN-I agree. That's why we're here. MR. KILMARTIN-And that's why I'm here, because I'm sick and tired of this baloney. They told me 25 years ago Route 149 was not going to be an interstate highway, that it was going to go up through Route 4 or follow that path. Now here we are, I'd like to know, who would like to build a home on 149 and listen to that heavy traffic every day, that's going over 149. I've got a field that's a good three quarters of a mile from 149, and I've slept there many a night with my wife, in a camper trailer, and God dammit I must say, here's this traffic all night long, brakes and everything else. Now either you make it an interstate, or you're going to cut it out, one or the other. Now, I've got a lot of property that bounds 149, and I bought it 35 years ago for retirement purposes, and I can't do a damn thing with it, and I am sick and tired of this Town and their Board meetings, and everything else, because I can't do anything with my property, and today, yesterday, I've got, hey, I've got one right here. Let me show you, just once. Here it 10 ""'--' -- is, 107 acres, point something. My original assessment was $32,300. I think that's a fair price. Now they've got my asse ssment coming up, this coming year, $128,300. I'm going to tell you something right now, this Town of Queensbury has got to start thinking about the people in the Town of Queensbury, instead of thinking about how much taxes they can get out of them. I'm sick and tired of this bull shit, and that's exactly what it is. I'm a retired man. I get $14,000 a year pension. I bought this God damn property with the idea that I could sell it for my retirement purposes, to help me through my lean years. Now, I'm coming up and I've got to come up with $5,000 this year for taxes that is all uncalled for because so and so and so and so and so and so thinks, well, Dick Kilmartin's a millionaire. Yes, I'm a millionaire on paper, but I'm not a millionaire when it comes to when it comes to paying taxes, and you God damn people have got to stop and think about what's gOing on. I'm sick and tired of the bull shit, because I'll tell you something right now, you're not gOing to collect a dime off of it, if you don't change your ways. I'll give my property away to the biggest conglomerate there is that's not paying any taxes. I'm not kidding. This is baloney. I am sick and tired of this. When I built my garage, it cost me $11,000 to build my garage. In 1988 it cost me $11,000 to build my garage, and they reassessed my property for $35,000, because I built a garage, and you tell me this is fair? Baloney. It's time we started doing something. We're in hard economic times. What the hell are you people thinking about? Don't think about the nice new car you can drive. I'm driving vehicles that are seven, eight years old, because I can't afford anything different, not on $14,000 a year, and especially when it's costing me $5,000 a year for taxes. It's time you God damn people woke up in this Town. I don't care who you are or where you are, you better start thinking, because you're not going to have a Town before you know it. You're going to have an uprising, and I'm not in this uprising. I'm going to dispose of all of you. It's about God damn time you people started thinking. I bought this property, like I said, back in the 60's, for retirement purposes, and the Town has got it so tied up that I can't, well, I'll tell you. I've got a lot on Dream Lake Road. MRS. EGGLESTON-We're off the subject. MR. KILMARTIN-No, no. You've to hear me out, because all the Town Board members are here and everything. You've got to hear me out. I've got a lot on Dream Lake Road, my original taxes were less than $5 a year when I bought it. Yes, I bought it 30 years ago, how about $800 today for taxes, for a lot that I can't even sell because it's less than three acres, according to the Town Zoning Board and Ordinances, it's less than three acres, I can't sell it, because I own all the property around it. Now it's time the God damn people in this Town woke up. I'm sick of it. Now, I don't care who you are or where you are, you better stop and think, because I'm sick and tired of this bull shit, because I'm going to give my property away, and I hope I give it to the biggest and the blackest organization in the world, I don't care if it's from Sudan or where it is, because I'm sick of this baloney. I went from $300 a year, 30 years ago, to $5,000 a year right now, and it's time the Town of Queensbury woke up. This is not a place to live anymore. It's not. It's time you people, Jim Martin, I don't care what you say. You start thinking about the people in the Town of Queensbury. They pay your wages, and dammit, it's time you started thinking about the people that pay your wages, and that goes for anybody else in the Town. I don't care if it's Mike Brandt or who it is, and Mike Brandt and I are good friends, but it's time you people started thinking about the people that pay your wages. Don't increase this, don't increase, you don't need new vehicles every year, and that's what I see. That's what I see. This God damn place right here is the biggest farce that ever was, this building right here, because it doesn't take care of what the people want. Go ahead. I am sick of this bull shit, and I am. I'm sorry that I've got to use this language, but it's the truth. 11 ~ --'" FRAN MARTINDALE MR. MARTINDALE-Just to go back to your study, did it state, you've got the figures, that 149 is the second heaviest travelled two lane road in New York State, and that 13 percent, I think is the figure, of that traffic on there is truck traffic? Did DOT give you that? That was the figure, back around 1989, I think that's when that figure came out. MR. HARLICKER-No. We don't have anything. MR. MARTIN-I appreciate that. We'll check that out. MR. MARTINDALE-That was at one of our Fort Ann Planning Board meetings. MAX COFFIN MR. COFFIN-That was the point I was getting at with the traffic counts. We've got to be real careful of what we're dOing. because these are off season traffic counts. MR. HARLICKER-Right. MR. MARTIN-Right. I think summer and winter would be the most high on this road, probably in the winter, with the Vermont traffic. CAROLYN MARTINDALE MRS. MARTINDALE-Summer's bad enough. MR. HARLICKER-Okay. Well, I'll just go over this real quick, and you guys can get back to your comments here. If you'll notice total counts for the 24 hour period here ranged from the section of road from Moon Hill Road to Bay Road is the lowest, with 5800 cars. and the stretch out from Ridge Road to Town Line Road is the highest, with 8600 cars. So the traffic is very high. Those counts are slightly higher than what DOT has. It could be for any number of reasons, the time of year, things like that. MR. KILMARTIN-What were the dates on these traffic counts? MR. HARLICKER-Most of them were done in September, September 10, 11, 12, and I believe the last stretch here from Moon Hill, or from Ridge Road to Town Line was done in May. The rest of them were done the second week in September. Down here, Warren County has some peak counts that they came up with. They did the actual counts in 1988, and then projected counts for '93, '98, and up to 2000 in three 5 year periods. They used a growth rate, it worked out to be almost three percent, 2.8 percent per year, and it just seems like, from looking at these, most of the traffic is during the p.m. hours. There's qUite a bit of difference here, between the p.m. counts and the a.m. counts. Also, most of the traffic travels east. The traffic level decreases as you get towards Route 9. The traffic counts drop down. To break it down again a little bit here, the section from Moon Hill Road to Bay Road appears to be, from the traffic counts, to have the fewest cars, that little section of road. The highest is the section from Ridge Road to the Town line, quite a bit of difference there. If you look at here, 8600 from Ridge, Town line, and 5800. MRS. MONAHAN-Scott, that's the time of the year. You took that one in May and the other one wasn't. That's time of the year. That's exactly what that is, is time of the year. You can't make those comparisons. MR. MARTIN-Well, then I think that's interesting to note right there, though, Betty, that from May to Fall there's that kind of a difference. 12 -" ~ MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. whatever it is? When did Warren County take theirs, in 1980, MR. HARLICKER-1988. I don't know what time of the year. MRS. MONAHAN-Because your p.m. count could be different going up to the lake and back, to make that high p.m. count, if it's the right time of the year. MR. HARLICKER-Okay. MRS. MONAHAN-I mean, that area has so many influences on it, you've really got to get into detail. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MRS. MONAHAN-Otherwise what you're doing is no good at all. MR. HARLICKER-Yes, but like you say, traffic data on this road is rather scarce. We're doing the best with what we've got. MRS. MONAHAN-Yes. but be careful how you interpret it, because there's so many factors that influence the way you should be interpreting it. MR. HARLICKER-Right. This isn't any real attempt to interpret. This is more or less a presentation of the data that we have to this stage. MR. KILMARTIN-In other words, the Town didn't do any traffic counts? You're relying on the State and the County to do traffic counts? What is wrong with the Town doing traffic counts? MR. MARTIN-We don't have any meters or any ability to do it. MR. KILMARTIN-Well, dammit all to hell, I pay enough taxes. You ought to have all kinds of meters. I'll tell you. You think this is funny, but it is not. Jim, can I ask you a question? Do you own any property on 149? MR. HARTIN-Yes. MR. KILMARTIN-You do? MR. MARTIN-Yes. I live there, have for the last five years. MR. KILMARTIN-Now, I don't know where you live, you don't know who I am, do you? MR. MARTIN-Yes, I do. MR. KILMARTIN-Okay. You know who I am. traffic is on 149. Then you know what the MR. MARTIN-It's horrible. I drive it every day. MR. KILMARTIN-Yes. Now, do you like living there on 149? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. KILMARTIN-You do? Man, you're the first guy I've seen or heard of that owns a house on 149, lives on 149, that loves living there and listening to all this heavy traffic all night long, all day long. Now, come on. I mean, I lived in cities where it was there were railroads running day and night. Of course I know you get used to that. MR. MARTIN-Hold on a second. 149? Jim Weller, do you like living on 13 ---.. '-' ..-' MR. WELLER-Yes. I built a house, as I was telling you earlier, 25 years ago, because I thought the interstate was going to be finished, and they haven't done it yet. MR. KILMARTIN-Right on. Yes. BOB MARTINDALE MR. BOB MARTINDALE-You get used to the noise. MR. KILMARTIN-You do? MR. BOB MARTINDALE-I live just as close to 149 as anybody lives, and you get used to it. MR. KILMARTIN-Well, I'll tell you something right now, I live a mile and a half from 149, and I can't get used to it, and I've got a log home, Jim Weller knows where I live, I've got a log home, and my home is, and you can't supposedly hear anything, but I'll tell you, I hear the traffic all night long. I do. I'm sorry if you can't stand it, but I've got to get my point across. MRS. EGGLESTON-I think you have. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Right. MR. KILMARTIN-Yes. I live a mile and a half from 149, property on 149, and I hear the trucks all night long. a log home, and I still hear the trucks. and I own I live in MR. HARLICKER-Suggestions on what we can do about it? MR. KILMARTIN-If you're going to make it a commercial route, make ita commercial route, open it up to commercial, and then the people will be happy. If you're not going to make it a commercial route, then you've got to reroute the trucks, because that's the problem right there. The truckers are the problem. There's a gravel bed down below my place, and I'll tell you something right now, I had a lot of problems with the truckers coming down, they've got to use those jake brakes. They are the worst things that ever was made on a vehicle in the world, because they come up to a traffic light and they flip on this jake brake, and it's, blub, blub, blub, blah, and if you live on 149, you people know what I'm talking about. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Excuse me. comments. We'd like to have other people make MR. KILMARTIN-Certainly. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Thank you. PAMELA MARTIN MRS. MARTIN-That was just going to be my suggestion, that maybe we could maybe people raise hands, so that everyone has a chance to speak. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Yes. We would like to have other people. MR. MARTIN-Traffic is obviously an issue, and I mean, the suggestion was made, is there a desire. here, for more commercial along sections of the road, or do you want to leave it residential, more residential? Is there any strong feelings about that, one way or the other? MR. KILMARTIN-Yes. I'd like to make it commercial. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-Does traffic have anything to do with the zoning? 14 ',,-- -- MR. MARTIN-I can. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-But does it? ANOTHER GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-What's the matter with it the way it is? I mean, why are we changing it? MR. MARTIN-We're not. We may not. I want some input here. Is there a need for a change? Is it fine the way it is? Are people happy with three and five acre zoning up and down the road? Would you like to see. Bill? GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I don't like the three acre zoning. MR. MARTIN-Okay. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Why? GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-Why? Because I don't think you need three acres for a residential home. ANOTHER GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I could agree with that. too. I mean, the way the taxes are, say he wants to give an acre to somebody, and they want to build a house, a relative or somebody, why should he not be able to? MR. BOB MARTINDALE-And the way housing is now, a lot of people, if they're just starting out, they can't afford three acres to pay taxes on it and maintain it. Maybe they want to get it gifted from their parents or from somebody else they know. Like he has three acres of land on Dream Lake Road. Say he wants to give half of it, somebody they know wants to build a house, he can't build a house if he owns enough property around it that he's locked into three acres. MR. KILMARTIN-Well, I've got just a little comment. Now, if it's zoned three or five acres, like it is zoned right now, let me ask you something. I'm going to ask you personally, I don't care who you are, or where you come from, you work all day, do you want to come home and maintain three or five acres of property, mowing it. keeping the brush down, and etc., and etc. You know, look it, I drove back and forth to Green Island for 25 years, and I run a farm besides. That's me. That was my prerogative. I did it because this was my life. Now, the average person that's buying a lot doesn't want to maintain three to five acres. They've got to go out and they've got to buy tractors to maintain it, and you work eight hours a day, or ten hours a day, you don't want to come home and work all night long in your yard. No you don't. Come on. Stop and think about it. If you're going to make 149 commercial, fine and dandy, and that's exactly the way I want it. Commercial. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I think it should be made commercial, the road with the traffic on it. It's a fact of life. This is a main artery between New York and Vermont. To think that it can be residential is just foolish, and I think that the zoning on the eastern end of it, 10 acres is too restrictive, even for commercial. This is a commercial road. GEORGE RYAN MR. RYAN-I've got a particular piece of property that's zoned SR- lA. I pay the taxes for a farm and garden center. The reason I do that, to do what I wanted to do, I had to get a site plan review. So I come into the problem, I got the site plan review, and as I expand, I'm still paying the commercial taxes, and I have the thing right here if you want to see it, but I'm zoned SR-1A. I mean, Suburban Residential, to me, is no good. I'd like to be re-zoned like my neighbors, HC-1A. If I couldn't get that, I'd like it the way it is. my particular case. 15 ~ ~ MRS. MONAHAN-Excuse me a minute. I think before you people say you want to be re-zoned HC-1A on 149. Jim. read what you can go in HC- lA, please. MR. MARTIN-All right. MRS. MONAHAN-I just want you to know what goes in Highway Commercial. MR. RYAN-I just want you to know that I was there a lot longer than Stewarts and stuff, and they're there. MR. MARTIN-All right. Highway Commercial, allowed uses are day care center, pharmacy or drugstore, stationery store, hardware store, meat or food store, barber or beauty shop, clothing apparel store, music instrument and record store, multi-function department store, sports equipment store, jewelry store, travel agency, professional office, office building, restaurant, television radio station, retail businesses, post office or mailing services, public parking garage, gasoline station, drive-in theater, amusement center, golf driving range, miniature golf course, recreation facility for profit, hospital, nursing home, auto repair and body shop, automobile sales and service. commercial boat storage repair and sales, farm and construction equipment sales and service, mobile home sales, car wash, fast food restaurant or diner or bar, places of public assembly, offices are mentioned again, commercial greenhouse, motel, hotel, inn or lodge, veterinary clinic. That's it. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-Jim, am I right in assuming that your HC-1A is at the intersection of Ridge and 149. between 149, 500 feet back from each? MR. MARTIN-Well. it varies with each, the particular properties are zoned HC-1A. How far back exactly they go, it goes with the property line. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I have no objections to commercial, but I think we should define which commercial zoning is going in a certain area, and that's one of the reasons I asked that we have a map, so that we can see this, and then an explanation of what zoning is currently in place. MRS. MONAHAN-I also suggested to Jim, when we were talking about a map, that he not only do what zoning, but the acreage on those different parcels. so it gives you a better chance to look and evaluate that area. MR. RYAN-In my particular spot, where I am, it's a heavy duty area, just like Mr. O'Connor said. He runs a gravel bed over there. I mean, we have a Stewarts there. We have a gravel bed across the street. It should all be Highway Commercial. It shouldn't be anything else but. MRS. MONAHAN-But, George, you've got some nice homes up there, too. You've got to be, think of those people that are there in those homes. Don't forget that. When you're mentioning stuff, you forget some of the nice homes that are around there. MR. RYAN-That's right, but how about the person that's around it. I have a golf course that's by me. I have a driving range. They have a bar and a restaurant. They have a place for assembly. I mean, I'm surrounded right by it. Why should I change? When I walk out my back yard, I see Stewarts lights. They've got gas over there. I have a logging supply next to me. You guys are going to raise the taxes. he's going to have to sell skidders. He's going to have to sell bull dozers. He's zoned for it. I'm not going to argue with him about it. because I can understand where he's coming from. So, you guys have to take that into consideration. If I was John. and I got my taxes, I'd get a bull dozer and start filling it 16 - ...../ and start selling stuff. You make the people do what they want. My taxes came. They're awfully high. too. I'm going to have to sell my pigs. I'll have to sell a pig to pay my taxes. So, to pay my taxes. so what am I going to put up, more greenhouses, or something. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-Why not put a zone that's residential and commercial, so if there's people that, and zone it so maybe the residential part doesn't have to be three acres, make it two acres or an acre and a half, and then if somebody wants to still live there, they can have their house there, and if they want a commercial business there, they can do what the heck they want to do with it. We pay enough taxes as it is, why can't we make something off the land if we can? MR. RYAN-As long as they pay attention to the rules. Do you want to see permits and stuff? You've got rules and regulations. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-But that gets to be too much baloney after a while, all these permits you've got to go through, it costs you an arm and a leg just to get through the whole system, to get anything. MR. RYAN-I did it. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-I agree that you've got to have rules and regulations, but you don't have to go to the extremes of some of the rules and regulations that we've got. MR. COFFIN-I've been around the United States a lot. Queensbury, I've lived here almost all my life, with the exception of maybe a year or two, and everybody else has these little home commercial zones allover the place, that you can have, Franny wanted to have his linoleum sales on 149, he could have his house there and them right there. Why don't we have this in Queensbury? I mean. we're spending an overabundance of time on regulating, and make George go and get 10 permits, when this should be just normal for almost all areas on maj or highways. Forget just 149, but all the major arterials. We've made things so difficult in Queensbury now that you people have got to be hearing it as much as I am, that people don't want to live here anymore, and our taxes are saying our property values are going up, and they don't want this. MR. KILMARTIN-I'm ready to move. I'm ready to move. MRS. MARTINDALE-My comment was very similar to my son Bob's. It should all be zoned commercially, but don't, if a person wants to have it residential, don't tax them at commercial rates. Let them have their residence there. but be lenient with them and tax them commercial on the commercial basis. MR. WELLER-Jim. you know I'm going to speak in favor of keeping it Highway Commercial areas, at the intersections where they are now. If we need to expand those limits at the intersections somewhat to include what George is doing and what might be happening at one of the other intersections, but lets keep the Highway Commercial development at the major intersections, and lets keep the corridor primarily a residential corridor. I'd be in favor of giving consideration to smaller lot sizes, to give people like Billy Mullin an opportunity to subdivide his land and make a few bucks, or turn it over to his kids, or, I think the Martindales have done some of those kinds of things. I might want to do some of those kinds of things some day, but I think we ought to preserve the residential character of Route 149. It's a corridor to the Adirondack Park. It's unique to that purpose. Lets basically keep it the way it is. The other thing I would like to say is, Russ O'Connor and I have known each other for years, and I can sympathize with what Russ has got to say. but lets listen to the tax payers and the land owners, but lets listen separately to the people that live there. Russ O'Connor doesn't live there. We live 17 "---- . ..- there, day after day after day, and have for years. I'll say one last thing. I've lived in my home since 1965. It's right along the main, 149, and I sold my business in Albany in 1977, and I wanted to bring my construction equipment up here, and I own four acres where my house is, and I knew, this was in '77, before the zoning laws, I knew that that wasn't the proper place for me to put up a structure to put my construction equipment in. The closest piece of commercial property that I could find was the vacant Walkup property down on the corner, and I bought that property at that point in time. and moved my construction equipment into a place where it was permitted to be done. I did it because I believed then in the way it was zoned, and I believe now in the way it's zoned, and it should stay that way. MR. KILMARTIN-I'm in disagreement. Jim, don't take me wrong, but I think 149 should be zoned commercial. I have this 107 acres. I could have sold it 100 times in the last five years, if it was zoned Highway Commercial. Because the Town has got it tied up so bad, and like I said, I bought it back in the 60's for retirement purposes. I'm living on $14,000 a year. That sounds like a lot of money to some people, but it's not much money when you're used to making a lot of bucks. Jim Weller knows what I'm talking about. I bought this property with the idea that I was going to be able to sell it for retirement purposes. The Town has got me so tied up that I can't sell it. This property that I've got on 149, like I said, I could have sold it 100 times in the last five years, if it was Highway Commercial, and I don't see why the Town should penalize me, when I bought it 35 years ago, before there was any zoning whatsoever. and I worked out of town, all the time I was working on my job. I didn't get a chance to come to all these meetings that they had. It's very unfair to the local people who bought property with the idea. I don't care if it was two acres or five acres, and they thought they were going to be able to sell an acre off to this guy or that guy. I think it's very unfair. I've got to get a site plan review. I've got to subdivide it, and all this other baloney, which is a lot of baloney, and it is. You people are taking care of all the people that come from out of state and bought property, and I'm talking right in my own neighborhood, right now. You're protecting those people, but you're not protecting the people that were born and raised here, and I think it's high damn time that you people started thinking about the people that were born and raised here, so we can do what we want to do. I want to sell my property. I've got property on Bay Road, prime property on Bay Road. I can't sell it, but you people are willing to raise the taxes, double the taxes on it, according to this last review, you're willing to double the taxes on it. The same thing on 149. and it just shows you. Right here. It just shows you. MRS. MONAHAN-Dick, please give some other people a chance to speak. here. MR. KILMARTIN-No. That's not so, Betty Monahan. I have a right to be heard. MRS. MONAHAN-You do. but you're monopolizing the whole meeting, Dick, and these people have a right to be heard, too. MR. KILMARTIN-Betty Monahan, will you listen to me. MRS. MONAHAN-I have been listening to you for a solid half an hour. I'd like to be able to listen to some of the other people here, please, Dick. MR. KILMARTIN-It's damn time that you people listened to the people that are paying your wages. MRS. MONAHAN-We're trying to listen to you, but we've listened to you for a half an hour. Now please let the rest of the people have a chance. 18 - ..,,/ MR. KILMARTIN-Damn time you people started listening to the people that are paying your wages. because you're going to be out of office. MR. MARTIN-There's a lady in the back we haven't heard from yet. LADY IN THE AUDIENCE-I'm concerned about what type of commercial operations were talking about. I mean, if you're going to put a strip mall down 149, if you think you've got traffic problems on Route 9, wait until you see what happens on 149. MRS. RUTHSCHILD-Right. Highway Commercial. That's why he read what was permitted in LADY IN THE AUDIENCE-Fifty five miles an hour, I mean, that's an extreme example, but that's what I'm concerned about, is that we have serious traffic problems now, and depending on what type of commercial operation is put in there, it's only going to increase that. MR. MARTIN-Thank you. Mike? MR. BRANDT-I want to first apologize that the Town Board had a meeting when this started, and we didn't hear the opening remarks. We had to pass a couple of things so we could move some business to the County for tomorrow, but I think, first of all, there are a couple of things you ought to understand. The Town Board was asked to do a reevaluation of the whole Town Property, tax wise, that has nothing to do with this. It does have something to do with how our land gets used and what's going to happen, and certainly we all read in the paper that there was a shift of taxes to vacant land, and I'm not sure that's the smartest thing in the world, but I'm also jaded because I own a lot of vacant land. just like a lot of you people do. The corridor on 149 has got a lot of vacant land, and so if there's a shift in tax burden to that vacant land, that has all kinds of implications that we better look at very carefully, if we're going to do that. That goes for allover, because if we're trying to save green space and what have you, then we've got to look at that. We're aware of that. The whole Town Board is apprehensive. The first question that we all offer each other tonight is, what in the hell can we do about this reeval. We, unfortunately. voted it in, and so now we've got to figure out how to get it under control. I don't know that we can. I don't know what we're going to do, but we're going to look at it. We all have to look at what we're doing that influences our community. The other thing here is that you're seeing a change, here, probably in the process. We're trying to look, now, with the Town at admitting what's happening, it's growing, and accommodating that in an orderly fashion, and what we're trying to do is start. you're the first people that we're starting with, to say, okay, look at your neighborhood, and what do you want, and what we're really trying to do is get you to look at what's coming, what's happening, get all the information together, and what do you want, and we're a government that has to give you what you want. That's our job, and we have to accommodate as many people as we can, and I think the input is very, very important. Whether you like or don't like, I'm the land owner. I don't like planning. I'll tell you, from my heart, I don't like it, but this is what the Town has adopted, and this is the law, and this is the way we're doing things, and so we have to admit this is the way we're doing it, so lets do it. Lets do it right, and that's what we're attempting to do, here. We all have to learn about it. There are things that the society doesn't know very much about yet. We're going to all learn together, but we're going to involve everybody in the process, and try and get input, and we're going to have to think about it carefully and see what it is we're trying to do. We're not here to impose our views on you. We're interested in what your views are of your neighborhood and how to serve it better. I think one thing the Town has done in past history is create a very complex Zoning Ordinance, and a lot of process, and that was designed, and said to 19 -- - be designed at the time, to stop growth. It didn't stop growth, but what it did was it made it very expensive and very difficult and expensive to live here, but we have to review that, and was that the right thing to do. Are there ways to simplify it that work and still give us the controls that people want? The majority want those controls. The majority want land use planning. So we've got to learn together and have patience with it, and, again, it's your neighborhood, you've got to decide what you want and how you want it, and you've got all kinds of competing interests, people who are in business, people who are in manufacturing, people who are home owners, and we all have to learn that we all have rights, and we have to take care of one another, and we're going to have to be a little more gentle with each other than we have in the past, and learn how to run a society a little better, too. It's all an exercise that will probably go on the rest of your lives. hopefully, and maybe we'll be successful. MR. KILMARTIN-But Mike, you can't assess, or reappraise, the people that own land, like me. I'm own one of 15 or 20 people that own a lot of land in the Town of Queensbury. Why penalize me, to stop the growth in the Town of Queensbury. MR. BRANDT-That's a fair question, and we've got to look at it. MR. KILMARTIN-The growth in the Town of Queensbury, you know, when you stop and look at it, if I sell everybody in this room right here one lot, that's, Queensbury' s growing, right? They're not going to get more taxes from these people, but why assess it all on to me and penalize me and hold my property down to the point where I can't sell it? That's what I'm trying to say, and that's what this Town has done to me. I'm going to tell you something right now, people, hear me out, because if the Town doesn't re-zone this property, so that I can sell it, you're not going to get any taxes on it. You're not going to get any taxes on it, because I'm going to give it to ENCON, the State of New York. I'm very serious about this, because it's a bunch of bull shit. MR. FRAN MARTINDALE-When Marilyn introduced, she did some history, you know, she talked about my family, the Hendricks. Probably this whole meeting has got a lot to do with me, and that's the fact that I want to take a piece of property that's been in my family for over six or seven generations, and grandma, here can probably back me up even better. I want to make a tribute to my family, to my grandparents, and because the zoning is such in this Town, as you know, and as many other people here know the hell I've been through in the last two years, I can't do that, and we can take the taxes. MR. WELLER-Are you going to put something in over there for the benefit of the community or the benefit of you? MR. FRAN MARTINDALE-Well, it'll be for the benefit of the community, Jim, and if you had been to some of these meetings and saw our conceptual drawings and the fact that we had an educational process, we're taking four acres, five acres of land and leaving forty acres to green space. This is what the Town wants. This is what you want, open space, and still be able to pay the taxes that I was just assessed, and I don't think that it's fair that somebody that owns a piece of property on one side of the road or down the road a little ways should not have the same privilege as the other guy on the other end of the road that's next to Ridge Road. Everybody has to be treated equally. MR. WELLER-I disagree with that. Those of us that have got commercial property paid commercial prices to get that property. Those that have got residential property paid residential prices. MR. FRAN MARTINDALE-And when we bought that, there was no zoning of any of this at all. MR. WELLER-A residential property to commercial, that's land 20 -- J speculation. MR. FRAN MARTINDALE-And when you have anybody else to have any competition. against this, too. it all, You're you don't want going to fight MR. BOB MARTINDALE-Why can't everyone be treated equal? I mean, if we're going to change this to a commercial spot, then now we're going to pay the commercial taxes, and we're willing to pay the commercial taxes. MR. FRAN MARTINDALE-We're paying the commercial taxes. MR. RYAN-I'd like to say one thing. I thought I was here for the whole town road. I'm not here for the Martindales. MR. FRAN MARTINDALE-Well, you were talking for yourself, a few minutes ago, George. You want your property changed. MR. RYAN-I should talk for myself, but at the same time. I got a site plan review, which he could do, just like I did. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-We went for site plan review and never got an answer. MRS. MARTINDALE-I would like to speak, Jim Martin. We went through site plan review, George Ryan, and we were told, and you were told. that because of the site plan review, you could not have a business there that you have today, and you had a special Town Board meeting on April 15th, 1991, and there was selected enforcement on your behalf, at that point. I have a copy of it. MR. MARTIN-I don't want to get into a real feud here. Please. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-All I'm saying is, lets make a commercial residential zone so if somebody wants to do something productive with their property, let them do it. MR. MARTIN-Okay. That's a comment worth looking at. problem with that. I have no MRS. MARTIN-Hi. My name is Pam Martin. I am Jim's wife. So I want to say that on the record, and I also. want to say on the record, as a devote Catholic. and as God is my witness, Jim and I have not discussed this Route 149 Survey. We have not discussed what he may want or what I may want. I just want to say that, too, in case people say, ethics or anything else. I'm a Martindale too, in terms of the fact that I'm a granddaughter of Floyd Martindale, cousins, but I'm not speaking as a Martindale. I'm just speaking as a peon, three acre parcel land owner, mother of two, secretary, low life, non commercial nobody, okay, and I'm concerned about the road. in terms of. I have two children that I want to raise there, and I would somewhat like to see residential character. however, I also think there should be a combination. I'm not sure what the zoning is, even though my husband's the Director of Planning and Zoning. I'm not familiar with all the zones. I think it would be helpful, as some of the comments were made, to see what some of the zones are, so we could see what might be acceptable and what might not be acceptable. I do not think, and this is my own personal opinion. that that road should be totally Highway Commercial, in terms of being a mother of two young children. I don't want to see, like a comment was made. a strip mall being down the road, but I do think, too, that Jim and I spent a lot of our life savings to buy a three acre parcel because that was what we needed to build a house, that it might also be too restrictive for people to be able to do what they want to do. So, I think this is really a good meeting, in terms of preliminary ideas, so we can all get together and comments can be made, but I think we still need to know, too, about what are the potentials here, what are the potential zones, just not all commercial or all residential. There's a lot of grey 21 '",,--, -- area that I'm not familiar with. So I'm sure that not everyone else is familiar with it. Thank you. MR. HARLICKER-That's a comment that I'd like to make. We aren't restricted to just Highway Commercial zones. We have the opportunity, here, to come up and design a specialty zone, if you'd like to call it, you know, we're not limited to the existing zones. Be creative and come up with a mixture, like what was suggested, commercial residential. Take pieces that appropriate from the different zones that would fit in up here. I keep hearing Highway Commercial, Highway Commercial. We're not restricted to that type of commercial development along the highway. MRS. BOB MARTINDALE MRS. BOB MARTINDALE-I'd like to say, I'm a mother of two young children, also, and I live on 149, not too far down the road from Pam, and being a mother of two young children. right now I'm not working, but I'm forced to go out and find a job. My ideal, right now, would be to be able to have some sort of business in my home. where I can watch my children, or when they're in school, be there when they get home. I mean, I think some forms of commercialism along that road, to suit at least for my purposes in having a family. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-As a person that's grown up on 149. lived there in a residence my whole life, and also done business there my whole life, I think what we're hearing here tonight is there can be a healthy mix of both residential and commercial development on the road. I think if you look at the characteristics of the road itself and the parcels that border 149, only certain parcels, as they now exist, are really going to be attractive for recreational commercial development or highway commercial development, due to the inclines. and the marshlands bordering some of the road. You'll never see a saturation of commercial development up and down the road. just due to the fact that the terrain is restrictive in that way, which always preserves very nice lots, for green space as well as residential development. and I really think we need to look at the entire corridor as a unique area of development for this region, not only for the residents who have lived here for generations and continue to plan future development of businesses and families there, but as a unique corridor to attract attention to this beautiful region and to significantly build upon one of our most successful businesses here in the region, being tourism. and tourism will always, in many people's eyes, that are not, don't think they're effected by the tourism business. might disagree with that comment. However, we are all impacted by tourism here, no matter what business we operate or no matter where we work. We have to recognize that fact and allow zoning to allow controlled development of commercial businesses in this region, to build upon our greatest success of all. being a wonderful destination resort for people who aren't lucky enough to live here. MR. MARTIN-Thank you. ANOTHER GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I was going to just say that a lot of people, and I think probably a lot of people in this room, are attracted to Vermont, the way things are in Vermont. people have things in their house, it's done nice. They say it's just a nice place to go, and even though it's commercial. there's residential mixed in with it. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-And if you have commercial residential type zone, if you have a house and you don't want to do anything commercial, you're going to keep it that way anyway. and that's going to kind of separate a lot of things, so it's not just going to be all commercial down through there, plus the way the terrain is, like Dave said. MRS. CAROLYN MARTINDALE-Also, Jim, you saw our conceptual drawing 22 -- '-' of what we would like to do on 149, and you, you can back me up, or you can define what you said earlier at the Planning Board meeting. You said it was a very unique design. What we wanted to do is mainly utilize four or five acres on 149, road frontage side, and keep the back all green, and the design itself is very unique in Early American, and Rural, and it would enhance the Town of Queensbury, with a lot of tax dollars, capitalizing on the existing traffic going through there, and it would be a beautiful attribute to the Town of Queensbury, and you could comment yourself, because you did, as Chairman of the Planning Board. you said it was very unique, and you loved it. MR. MARTIN-I do remember the design, and it was a nice design. MRS. CAROLYN MARTINDALE-Right, and it was for covered bridges in between, and it's a very well designed, well planned, thought out mini development. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I think there's so many different diversions of opinion that in order to satisfy people that you're going to have to come up with a variance of different types of zoning along the road, some parts of it are already commercial, if you look over by Ridge and 149. To me, that's already commercial, that's past it, but there are other areas that definitely are residential, and because of the terrain. probably should be kept that way. So I think maybe you've got to take a look that the road isn't just one homogenous thing. It's a lot of different things mixed in, and there's room for both. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-One other thing I want to stress again. We're here, if you want to here our input, and if you give the people that own the land on 149 something that if they want to do something with that property, that's the most input of all, on how we want to keep our property there. So, why restrict somebody, if they don't own a piece of property right next to Bay Road, for a Highway Commercial or whatever, or next to Ridge Road. It's not like somebody can go out and buy a piece there, because somebody else already has that, and if they want to do something with it, constructive with their property, why penalize them, just because they aren't so close to Bay Road, or aren't so close to Ridge Road. The traffic is not going to make a big difference. It's not like if you're in a residential area, the truckers are going to jump over to the other side so they don't go through the residential area. They're going through no matter what. So, I don't see what the big difference is, because the traffic is still going to be the same. They can't swerve around a residential area to get into a commercial area. It's still going to be the same. MR. WELLER-I think I've got to disagree with that, Jim. The traffic on Route 9 is basically, it's changed a little bit and increased over the last 10 years, but the monstrosity and traffic jam over there is a result of the commercial development backed up on 149, and that has to do with the traffic study. It's backed up on 149 in August on the weekends, it comes regularly to my house, and has been as far as my office, going up Bay Road on a Sunday morning. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I've seen that myself. This was in the middle of the summer, I remember there was a traffic jam that went to the Bay Road intersection. MR. WELLER-Right. MR. BOB MARTINDALE-That's because of a tragedy, of some sort. It's not like it does it every day. MR. WELLER-When you start putting commercial development, as they did on Route 9, slowing down the traffic, and you start the traffic jams and the nightmare that they've got over there on Route 9. 23 '-' ~. MR. KILMARTIN-You know as well as I do, Jim, that if the traffic gets that heavy, they're going to make that a four lane highway, sooner or later, you know that as well as I do, just as sure as hell as I sit right here, they're going to make that a four lane highway. They say no. The State Department says no. I've been to them, and I know what I'm talking about. They say no. but they're going to do it sooner or later. When the traffic gets heavy enough, they're gOing to make it a four lane highway. I don't care what anybody says. MR. FRAN MARTINDALE-And when it becomes a four lane highway, people, you're going to lose your commercialism. You're going to lose your tax dollars, and believe me, you don't want it a four lane highway. GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE-I just want to say that I think we should try to preserve the integrity of the corridor through there. I'm against strip malls and all this other stuff, but as you come in there with a mass group of commercial businesses or something like that. I think you do have to have a control of some sort, whether it's spot, commercial, or whatever it is. I don't think the road should be designated commercial. I'd be dead against that, but people do have a right to do things with their property also, but in the same effect, I think that it has to be looked at, who wants to do what, or what areas could be commercial. I'm strictly against a whole road being commercial, and I think probably with all the ideas here tonight, I think there has been a lot of good ideas put forth, and the other thing, as far as this three acre limi t for housing for residential, it is a bunch of BS. I think most of the people in this room will agree with that. especially when it costs somebody trying to get started $5,000 to subdivide their property that they're buying, to buy the lot they want to have. They've got three acres. I think that's a bunch of BS, and I think, in anybody's estimation. I think you have to take a hard look at that. Basically, that's all I have to offer on that. MR. COFFIN-Just one last time. I think this traffic thing, Jim brought it out very well, it's got to be studied a lot more carefully than what you've shown me here. I've lived on 149 all my life. as Franny has, and some of these other people. That traffic is unbelievable, and they're taking September and May studies and going by that, and they are, they're going to end up just like Route 9, with just minor changes there, I believe. MRS. MARTIN-I just want to add that I agree and disagree with some things that have been said, but when people start getting upset, thinking that they should have a right to do anything and everything with their property. I don't agree with that. The point was very good, I think, about Route 9, the Factory Outlets over there. Everyone thought, or many people thought, let people build, build, build over there, and now that the traffic is so horrible, everyone is saying, where was the planning, where was the planning. Well, I think that's why it's so important now, with 149. that we do do this, that there are restrictions put in, so that when it's all done and said and things are developed, that in 10 years we aren't saying, where was the planning, where was the planning. I think this is very important. LADY IN AUDIENCE-With the traffic the way it is. the commercialism by the intersections where cars are slow, if you're going 55 miles an hour, unless you're going to change it differently, put a commercial place in between the traffic lights, I'm telling you, if you go to turn left, you're going to get hit. or you're going to come close to it, because the road's not wide enough to go around. So that's why it's mostly commercial by the lights. MR. KILMARTIN-I've got just one last thing I want to say. Well, Jim, Teddy Turner and everybody in here knows me. I have a farm. MR. MARTIN-You bought that farm from my parents. 24 / ~ MR. KILMARTIN-Who's your parents? MR. MARTIN-Millbrook Farm? MR. KILMARTIN-Who was your parents? MR. MARTIN-John Martin. MR. KILMARTIN-No. I didn't buy it from your parents. MR. MARTIN-Well, we rented it. We rented it right before you took it. MR. KILMARTIN-I didn't buy it from your parents. I bought it from Teddy Cowett. MR. MARTIN-Yes. We rented it from Mr. Cowett. MR. KILMARTIN-Let the record be that I bought it from Teddy Cowett. MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. KILMARTIN-Okay. I've got property on 149, on Bay Road. up and down Bay Road, and if I go over there, with a tractor, from my place to 149, I'm not saying that I don't have a problem, especially if I try to get out onto 149 with a tractor, but I can say this, if you don't make it commercial, you're going to be in a lot of problems, because there's going to be a big accident, and I try to come out of my field onto 149 and I have one hell of a time, and these truckers, they don't pay any attention to traffic. You know this as well as I do. They come down through there with those 18 wheelers, they're doing 50, 60, 70 miles an hour. I'm going to come out of my field, come hell or high water. I don't care if an 18 wheeler lines up in my field or not. He better not hit me, and if you don't make it commercial, so that I can sell my property commercial, for commercial development, then we're going to all be in trouble. MR. MARTIN-Thank you. Is there anyone else who'd like to make a comment? We're getting a little bit towards the end here. Anyone else at all? Well, thank you all for coming, and we'll be back in three weeks, and we'll have something to show you, and I hope most people are happy. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, James Martin, Director of Department of Planning and Community Development 25