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1993-06-29 SP '-' -- QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD SPECIAL MEETING JUNE 29TH. 1993 INDEX MEETING Site Plan No. 31-93 National Realty & Development Corp. 1. Site Plan No. 33-93 Zaremba Group. Inc. 21. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS HINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. -- QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING JUNE 29TH. 1993 7:00 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT TIMOTHY BREWER. CHAIRMAN CORINNE TARANA. SECRETARY ROGER RUEL GEORGE STARK CRAIG MACEWAN MEMBERS ABSENT CAROL PULVER EDWARD LAPOINT EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLANNER-SCOTT HARLICKER STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI SITE PLAN NO. 31-93 TYPE I NATIONAL REALTY & DEVELOPMENT CORP. OWNER: GROSSMAN. BAKER & RUBIN ZONE: HC-1A LOCATION: WEST SIDE OF RT. 9 OPPOSITE MONTRAY ROAD. PROPOSAL IS FOR A 121.226 SQ. FT. COMMERCIAL SHOPPING CENTER - WALMART CROSS REFERENCE: AV #11-1993 SUBDIV. 13-1993 BEAUTIFICATION COMMITTEE - 6/7/93 WARREN COUNTY PLANNING - 6/9/93 TAX MAP NO. 71-1-3. 5 LOT SIZE: 17.74 ACRES SECTION: 179-23 D(3)(a)[l][a][d] MICHAEL O'CONNOR, BILL WHITE. SHELLY JOHNSTON. PRESENT MR. BREWER-Considering that Craig and Roger weren't here. maybe we can start with you. and see if there's any concerns that we didn't, or maybe we should go over. MR. MARTIN-I think. yes. Craig. because he does have some corrections to the plan. in response to our last. MR. BREWER-Go over what we did, and then anything additional that you guys can throw in. We had a public hearing and I left it open. MRS. TARANA-Yes. it was left open. MR. HARLICKER-One of them was left open. and the other one wasn't. MR. BREWER-I never opened the one for Zaremba. Okay. Bill, maybe you want to highlight some of the changes you made? MR. WHITE-Okay. I'll just do a short presentation. At our last meeting, there was some discussion. there was some discussions. mostl y for the Board members that weren't able to make it that night. about the changes to the plans. and we think we've accommodated them at this point. What we've done is we've added some landscaped islands throughout the center of the lot. We've moved the light poles. that were located here, to wi thin the islands. We've planted these areas in here. With the islands that do not have light poles. we've put larger trees. shade type trees. In the islands that do have light poles. we've put a lower shrub type of planting. In that area. we've also extended this island up. in this area. here. too. We've done a similar type of thing on the Ames side of the parking lot. over this way. to sort of break it up more into different quadrants. and provide some additional landscape. and screening. Another concern that was raised was some additional buffering here for the apartment complex to the west. and what we've done is added, in this area here. a series of Austrian Pines. in here. to screen the apartment complex here. We've left some gaps in here. intentionally. where the garages are - 1 - -- situated. because we didn't feel that the landscaping would provide any additional screening. The garages already provide some additional screening in that area. HR. MARTIN-A stockade fence. too. Bill? MR. WHITE-Yes. It was actually a condi tion of obtaining our variances from the Zoning Board of Appeals. but we've shown it. now. on the plans. and that's an eight foot high stockade fence. We'll remove the existing six foot high wood fence in this area. and put up an eight foot high stockade fence. along. pretty much along the perimeter. and it would terminate about in line with where the existing Ames building is. One of the things that was discussed. the lady who manages Robert Gardens North expressed a concern that we provide a type of berm in this area, and some landscaping. and it doesn't show on this plan. the landscaping plan. but on the grading plan we've shown some three to four foot high berming in this area. to help..the existing Ames building. One of the other issues we discussed at the last meeting was. provisions to provide some type of pedestrian access from the residents to the south into the Plaza. and we've shown a link at this point, and a link at this point. This one isn't on the existing trail. because this existing trail sort of comes up and meets this one. but we've taken this one and connected it in. We've taken this one on the existing trail through this 50 foot area. and provided a six foot wide gap from the wood fence in this area. MR. BREWER-What would that walkway consist of? MR. WHITE-We've added a detail over in this area. We've shown timbers on the sides here. and the actually material here would be like a compacted gravel with some compacted stone dust on the top to make it a harder type surface in here. six foot wide. at this location. and at this location. I think those were the biggest issues that we had talked about. We had the Ames sign actually on the Wal-Mart property. and we've taken it now and relocated it onto the. I call it the Ames property. but it's actually the property of National Realty who owns the Center. MR. MARTIN-Just from a Staff point of view. we always are quick to comment about negatives. I wanted to say. I want to commend you for the speed in which you've responded to Q.\:J:J~. concerns. as a Staff. and I think those are nice improvements. MR. BREWER-They are. removing? How many parking spaces did you end up MR. WHITE-Fourteen. We've retabulated two. We gave you a handout at the last meeting that sort of. I think. laid it out a little bit clearer. about how we meet the Code and required parking. That's now been updated a little. because we have 14 lots.. .we only have. but we're still quite a bit in excess of the Code. 522 spaces. 589 provided on the Wal-Mart side. 280 required on the Ames side. and 364 provided. So we're well in excess of the Code. MR. MARTIN-And you can update that schedule. in time for the meeting. MR. WHITE-We have updated it. It's on the plans. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but I mean. with the 14 spaces taken out? MR. WHITE-Yes. This has the right number. MR. MARTIN-It does? Okay. MR. WHITE-Yes. What we weren't able to hear was some comments from the other members of that weren't there. and that's what I'd like to try to discuss at this time. - 2 - - MR. MACEWAN-I wasn't at the meeting, but I think the comments that I had. and the concerns I had. were the same ones that everybody else outlined. Traffic seemed to be a problem. for me. We had discussed before the access from the existing development into the W~l-Mart project site. coming with some sort of access-way. s1dewalk way or whatever. and getting the islands put in there. was my concern as well. MR. WHITE-I brought Shelly Johnston. from Transportation Concepts. our consultants. to answer any questions. If you have any specific questions. MR. MACEWAN-Not right off the top of my head. I don't have any specific questions. I guess one of the big concerns I have is that these consulting engineers not only prepared the presentation for you folks. but they also did a traffic study for the County. which from preliminary discussions I'm getting from people. contradicts what is in this report. Some of the topics of conversation have been around the intersection of Route 9 and 254. being able to adequately handle the influx of traffic that would head up that way for Wal-Mart. I haven't been able to document it yet. but it's my understanding that the traffic analysis that was done for the County says that there's a problem at that intersection right now. without any future development along that stretch of highway up there. and there's some things definitely on the books to develop up there. and that's one of my big concerns. is how is that going to be handled. how is it going to be taken care of. MS. JOHNSTON-My name is Shelly Johnston. and I'm a Traffic Engineer with Transportation Concepts in Clifton Park. The traffic volumes that are included as existing conditions in that traffic report that was prepared for Wal-Mart. at the Route 9 and Route 254 intersection are the exact same traffic volumes that are used in the traffic study our firm prepared for the Route 254 corridor. So the analysis of existing condi tions is exactly the same. The volumes are the same. The analysis are the same. to provide the existing levels of service, which. as documented in there is existing Level of Service D. I wasn't at the meeting that. apparently there was some concern over a conflict of interest. or whatever. When we first were approached by Bill's firm. to do the traffic impact study for the Wal-Mart. we contacted Warren County to get their input, and DOT to get their input. our client's essentially for that traffic study for Route 254. and they all concurred that there was not a conflict of interest because this site was outside of that 254 Corridor. HR. MACEWAN-Who did you contact at the County? MS. JOHNSTON-Fred Austin. DPW. MRS. TARANA-It was...outside the Corridor? MS. JOHNSTON-This project. the Wal-Mart project is on. obviously. Route 9. north of the 254 Corridor. MRS. TARANA-You mean the intersection of 254 and Aviation Road that they're studying? HR. MARTIN-Well. no. I think there's a little chronological problem here. They were hired to do a corridor study which was. I think. just completed recently. Then they were hired by the Wal- Mart developers. or Bill's firm. or whatever. to do this work. and then. just very recently. they were retained by the County to do a follow up to the Corridor Study, which is this more intensive study of the intersection itself. and the surrounding area. So that's the chronological order. the way the hiring was done. MS. JOHNSTON-Right. and that brings me further to my other point. about the existing Level of Service of the Route 9/254 intersection. During the typical p. m. peak hour. 1 ike I said. - 3 - right now it's operating on a Level of Service D. MR. MACEWAN-Which is pretty low. MS. JOHNSTON-Which is considered an acceptable condition. but with addi tional traffic. there may be times when that intersection fails. That typically is not happening at a recurring or all the time basis every day of the week. every month of the year. but what. MR. MACEWAN-What's your definition of failure? MS. JOHNSTON-Where the delay is greater than 60 seconds. an average vehicle has to wait more than 60 seconds. MR. MACEWAN-I think that situation is already there. especially turning north on Route 9. MR. BREWER-You mean coming out of the Plaza. Craig? MR. MACEWAN-No. Coming down 254 to. Aviation Road to the intersection. and then turning north up Route 9 like you wanted to head up to Ames. MS. JOHNSTON-Well. in anticipation of this poor level of service that occurs. at whatever frequency now. and is predicted to occur more frequently in the future, that is why the County. together with Jim's office. has retained our firm to analyze that intersection more closely. the 254 and Route 9 intersection, more closely. to try to determine what alternatives there are out there to try to alleviate some of that pressure that's on that intersection. Obviously. the Wal-Mart is just one aspect of the traffic that's going to go through that intersection. Right now. it's an existing condition that the County is pursuing to try to determine what they can do and what the Town can do to try to lessen that impact. MR. MACEWAN-What could be done? HS. JOHNSTON-We're studying that. There's roads that could be built. There are alternate routes. There's different things. HR. MACEWAN-Which all takes a significant amount of money. MS. JOHNSTON-That's correct. but my point is. the Wal-Mart project is one project that's going to add traffic to that intersection. As you know. there's already thousands of cars that go through that intersection each day, and we're addressing that in that study for the Route 9 and 254 intersection. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. That's all that I had. right at the moment. MR. RUEL-I don't have any. either general or specific. questions. and the only comment I have is. whatever minor problems may exist, I believe. are offset by the benefits to Queensbury and to employment that will be generated. That's the only comment I've got. HR. BREWER-Okay. The only other comment I have is. I see this gentleman sitting here. and I know that he talked in length about the intersection of. Weeks Road is it? FRED GILCHRIST MR. GILCHRIST-That's correct. MR. BREWER-Is there anything that can be done to alleviate that? From my understanding. you're putting the light in. but these people getting in and out of there from this project. You're light is down the road. right? - 4 - '--" MS. JOHNSTON-That's correct. in front of the northern entrance. HR. WHITE-We're out here where Weeks Road is. right there. about 400 feet. MR. GILCHRIST-I paced it off at 350 feet. That would give you approximately 17 cars before you block Weeks Road. at the most. MR. BREWER-I guess what I'm aSking is. how often is that going to happen that that light is going to create traffic enough to block Weeks Road so people can't get in and out of there? Guess. I mean, you talked about traffic being parked on Weeks Road. and parked on Weeks Road. because you're gOing to be so busy. What's going to happen with that intersection. if that does happen? MS. JOHNSTON-The question will hopefully be addressed when the engineers design the signal. The signal is going to be green for the maximum amount of time it possibly can. for the Route 9 traffic. That's DOT's main concern. is the flow of traffic on Route 9. They're going to make that green for as long as they possibly can. DOT is least concerned about the traffic eXiting the Wal-Mart site. MR. BREWER-Well. if they want it green all the time. why do they bother to put the light in? MS. JOHNSTON-Because there is going to be sufficient traffic coming out of that Plaza to warrant a traffic signal. to ensure the safe operation at that signal. and for the motorists turning in and out of that Plaza. MR. BREWER-I guess what I'm saying is. I can sympathize with what this man is saying. and if it's going to create a problem. I don't know why they're putting the light there. MS. JOHNSTON-I believe it's going to alleviate some problems that currently exist now. MR. O'CONNOR-I don't think anybody's indicated it's going to create a problem. I think everybody that has looked at it has said that it probably will have some positive impact. even on Weeks Road. because what's going to happen is that you're going to have some interruption through the traffic that's going to be flowing north. MR. WHITE-This signal here will stop people. MR. 0' CONNOR-The main problem coming in on Weeks Road. as I've understood from the various people that talked about it. is turning to the north. not necessarily turning to the right. or they experience a problem. even if they're turning to the right. because the guy in front of them happens to be turning to the left. to the north. and you can never get out. There's no interruption with that traffic now. It's a steady line. If you put the light below that intersection. it's going to cause pauses in it. much like. and I differ with what Corinne has indicated coming out of. I come out of Country Club Road onto Quaker Road. and I turn left to go down into Glenwood and down to my home. I never was able to turn that way before. I always had to go up and go down Foster Avenue and out onto Glen Street that way. because I just never could get the left. because I sit there at that intersection now. I do wait a little bit. but it's not an inordinant amount of time. and I can get out there. because of the traffic light that's at the end of Foster Avenue. that stops the people coming east. and the traffic light that is at Glenwood Avenue that stops the people from coming west. Sometimes you've got to wait a little bit. but before. I could never get out. Now I get out on a regular basis without a great deal of problem. and that's the same thing that's going to happen to the people coming out of Weeks Road. which I think was what the concern was. I also. as a layman. have said that maybe even if the people have real problems getting out. although it's - 5 - ~ ~ not going to be an advertised asset. I think people would take an advantage and go through the parking lot and come out at the light. It's like up at the County Center. people coming out Glen Lake Road. Probably a good part of that traffic goes through the County Center and comes out at the light at the end of Gurney Lane. as opposed to coming out at the end of Glen Lake Road. but I think there's going to be a general advantage to the people that are trying to come out. particularly from Weeks Road. to have the light there. MR. BREWER-I can see the traffic stopping going north. but I don't know how much traffic coming from the north/south. I don't know. MR. MARTIN-Shelly. what would be the possibility of even painting a white line. just north of the. with the south bound lane. so that in the event that cars do stack to the point where they pull right out in front of Weeks Road. could that be like an indication for people to stop here. maybe even signage to that effect? MS. JOHNSTON-What you could do. I do not believe that you'd be able to put a stop sign where there is not a signal light. but there is a sign that is a New York State regulation. it's essentially a reminder. a New York State Regulation sign that says. you are not permitted to block an intersection. It's against the law to block an intersection. MR. RUEL-But they all do anyway. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but I mean. even if we could have. rather than have nothing. if we can ask for a sign to that effect. MS. JOHNSTON-Right. Niscayuna. and those to two lanes here. side streets. We have that same situation on 146 in signs do help. It's a single lane. as opposed It's a single lane. and it would block those MR. MARTIN-And it would. I imagine. aid in ticketing of somebody who did stop in the intersection. and then through enforcement. people get the idea that you're not allowed to stay in that intersection. HS. JOHNSTON-Right. on the occasion that that does happen. MR. BREWER-Who do you have to talk to do that. possibly? Warren County? MS. JOHNSTON-DOT. MR. WHITE-DOT. HR. O'CONNOR-DOT has jurisdiction of that. enforcement. MS. JOHNSTON-It can be included in the signal design plans that the State has. or the driveway road cut permit plan that they submit. to give to DOT. one additional sign. MR. MARTIN-Who's "they"? HS. JOHNSTON-Flint Engineers. Flint. Allen. White. and Radley. When they submit their plans to DOT for their signal design and for their curb cuts and revisions to those center lanes on Route 9. they can add a sign. if it's amenable to them. MR. WHITE-Yes. We can do that. because we're about to make our second submission to DOT for their detailed review. I could just add it to the plans. MR. BREWER-Yes. anything that could help. MR. WHITE-You're talking about a sign. right in here. saying. Do - 6 - '- ~ Not Block Intersections? MR. HARTIN-Just north of Weeks Road. Yes. MS. JOHNSTON-I can give you the exact specifications. MR. WHITE-We could propose it to DOT. MR. MARTIN-Maybe Tim, as Chairman of the Planning Board. could follow up with a letter. or I could. as Staff Planner. to enforce that. or reinforce that. MRS. TARANA-And I think it's got to be so people can come out of Sweet Road as well. MS. JOHNSTON-Yes. MRS. TARANA-Not just Weeks. MR. WHITE-Well. there is a little island area right here on the corner. the perfect spot for it. right there. right at the intersection. MRS. TARANA-When will that signal design plan be done? MR. WHITE-This Friday we're submitting our second set. Normally. with DOT you submit preliminary plans. they comment on them. which they have done. and then you provide more detail and resubmit again. MR. BREWER-Is that something we see. or not? MR. WHITE-Not normally. No. but we could provide the DOT plans with our. we're going to be submitting now. another full set of plans for everyone's review. MR. MARTIN-Detailed plans of the turn lanes and all that? MR. WHITE-Yes. We'll throw them in there. We've got them designed enough. at this point. They're essentially final plans. minus DOT's last comments. MR. RUEL-In your experience as a traffic engineer. are these signs effective? MS. JOHNSTON-Yes. they are. Like I said. they work. where I drive. every day home from work. MR. RUEL-Because. see. gridlock doesn't work in the City. wondering whether those signs work here. I was MS. JOHNSTON-I believe they will. I have a similar situation. like I said. MR. RUEL-People stop? HS. JOHNSTON-Yes. leave it open so that people can turn out and turn in. Like I said. it's a reminder of a New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law. MR. MARTIN-And I would think. like I said. reinforce any enforcement or ticketing efforts done. MR. O'CONNOR-It works down at the YMCA. Fire Road. MR. MARTIN-Yes. That's what made me think of that. MR. O'CONNOR-The light is below that intersection where the YMCA road intersects. There's a big white sign there. It says. Do Not Block Intersection. It appears to work. - 7 - -- MR. MARTIN-It can't hurt. MR. BREWER-You mean at Webster? MR. MARTIN-No. at the Fire Road. MR. O'CONNOR-No. There's a light at Webster. but there's no light or signal Webster. and if you backed up from Webster. you could block it. so that people coming north on Glen couldn't turn into the YMCA. or Fire Road. MR. MARTIN-It says. Stop Here on Red. is what it says. MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. MS. JOHNSTON-There's two different signs. One's Stop Here on Red. and one is Do Not Block the Intersection. If the signal head is red. obviously. you don't want someone stopping behind... MR. MARTIN-If you're not such a distance that you're too far away. where people don't know what you mean. MR. BREWER-Who's going to design the line that goes on the road underneath the traffic light? I hope it's not the same guy that did the one at. Foster. is it Foster? Because if you stop at the line. you have to look up like this to see the light. MR. WHITE-No. All highway designs. MR. O'CONNOR-Can we ask you openly. have we answered the questions? MR. MARTIN-I have one more. Bill and I were talking about this just before the meeting started. I think. with a development of this magnitude. and a landscaping of this magnitude. I would like to see. and it's within your power to do so. the Planning Board ask for an escrow or security bond or whatever you want to call it. to ensure that landscaping is done. MR. BREWER-Well. I thought if they submit a plan. and we make that a part of our condition. you're going to go out there and count the trees. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but I'm telling you. I would like to see. MR. STARK-You're the one that issues the CO now. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but I'd like to see some cash incentive. or some monetary incentive. MR. 0' CONNOR-I have problem with that. I went through that. in part. with your predecessor. up on the Million Dollar Half Mile. and it just doesn't work. MR. MARTIN-It doesn't? MR. O'CONNOR-It's a real cumbersome mechanism to try and put the money up and get the money back. You can make it a condition of your CO. You can make it. even when you issue your CO. indicate that. it could be revisited for purposes of landscaping. MR. MARTIN-All I'm saying. as a practical matter. the ball is dropped. in many cases. between the design engineer or the landscape architects and his plan. and the contractor installing it. like I went up to The Great Escape for their CO. on their ride. I showed them the landscape plan. He said. I've never even laid eyes on that before. MR. O'CONNOR-Mr. White is the fellow who comes around looking for the CO. - 8 - -- -- MR. WHITE-I'll be here if there's a problem with the CO. MR. MACEWAN-We discussed this a couple, three. four meetings ago. with some other project that we had. we were talking about stuff we had done six. eight months ago. those were contingent upon getting the CO's. and they got them. and I thought the policy we were going to set forth on that was there wasn't going to be a CO unless things were done in accordance with what the resolution was that was passed? MR. MARTIN-Right. and I'm just saying. this is the type of thing that's happening. though. in the real world. and I'm doing everything I can to enforce those. MR. O'CONNOR-We don't have any problem with that type of program. MR. MACEWAN-I think in this kind of a case. if they're looking to get a CO to open up a multi -mi 11 ion dollar store. they'll have their trees and shrubs in. MR. BREWER-Well. we just have to let them be aware. MR. 0' CONNOR-Secondly. I would say this. If for some reason, by weather. and you've got to recognize thi s. if for reasons by weather that we can't actually do the planting. and we're looking for a CO. say. in the middle of April. and it isn't the proper time to start all this. then we would talk to you about. MR. MARTIN-Right. well. I'll work with you on that. MR. O'CONNOR-Lets do an escrow. or lets show you a paid bill, and show you the plan that we've already retained this guy and paid this guy. MR. BREWER-When do you think construction will start. and stop? MR. WHITE-As soon as we have an approval. we'd like to start some demolition work. MR. MARTIN-I'll tell you right now. They have their applìcation in for a building permit already. MR. BREWER-Yes. but that doesn't answer my question. How long is it going to take to build this? MR. WHITE-The actual construction is probably about a five month period. but you've got to think seasonally. They're hoping to get the site work done this year. because. MR. BREWER-You're not going to have any plants in the ground when this store opens. I can tell you that right now. MR. WHITE-Yes. We're. potentially. looking at like a February. March type opening, and if we have to make asphalt. we have to put that down this year. MR. O'CONNOR-We'd have to satisfy you. MR. MARTIN-Well, then they can make a condition. having the landscaping done by like June of next year. MR. 0' CONNOR-We understand that your approval is going certain conditions on it. and one of the conditions is comply with all the submittals that we've made to you. have to talk to you about how and when we're going to those. and to your satisfaction within your authority. to have that we We then satisfy MR. MARTIN-I'm getting a little wiser. I'm going to have this as part of the bui 1ding permit appl ication. that plat showing the landscaping. because all we get is these details after details of - 9 - / '- electrical and plumbing and all this other garbage that I don't know. but I want a landscaping plan in front of that contractor's face. MR. WHITE-We distribute the plans to the contractors directly from our office. So there's a little bit of a safe guard there. HR. BREWER-Why couldn't they do perimeter landscape this fall. in other words like down by Ray Supply, and in the front. and the berm over by where Ames is. because you're not going to disturb any of that area anyway. MR. MARTIN-They've got to do all that on-site stormwater. right? I mean. you've got to rip that up pretty good to do that. MR. BREWER-But you're going to do that before the ground freezes. aren't they. or aren't they? HR. MARTIN-I don't want to force the issue to the point where. because we've forced it. that we result in a lot of the plants dying. I mean, I'll work with them. but when the end product is done. I want to see everything in place that's promi sed there. right down to the Junipers and all that other very technical jargon that's on there about certain types of species of plants. MR. RUEL-Jim. a moment ago you indicated that something got between the landscaper and the design engineer? Doesn't landscaper. doesn't he furnish input to the design engineer come up with these plans? lost the that MR. BREWER-No. MR. RUEL-These plans are by design engineers. without consulting the landscapers? MR. WHITE-No. You're confusing. we have landscape architects who design it. but that actual landscape contractor who builds it. I think. is what Jim is referring to. MR. MARTIN-Right. MR. WHITE-There's a gap in communications there. MR. RUEL-Okay. So the landscape architect should be in the position to know what the landscaper can do or not do? MR. MARTIN-Because there's little interesting detail notes that are on the se plans. like for example. on the Great Escape plan. it says. landscape architect is supposed to be on site and inspect all plantings as done. MR. RUEL-Do they. and do they call for vegetation that's almost impossible to maintain. and things like that? MR. MARTIN-No. no. It's just a matter of specific quantities and things like that being met. and specific types and I'm learning, too. a little bit. but I'll tell you. in the next several months. I'm going to get smart to the point where this is going to work. and work from Day One. in terms of it being right in the building permi t application. because what happens is the building permi t application is very technical. and related to a lot of the structural components and things like that. as it should be. but the other thing that should be in there, that's not. is this type of thing. in terms of landscaping and that. HR. RUEL-There's nothing there now? MR. MARTIN-It doesn't come in. MR. BREWER-Well. we know that you're going to have to work - 10 - something out with them anyway. because you're going to be into March or April. you said? HR. MARTIN-I think quite simply citing a date when it should be installed by would be sufficient. MR. BREWER-By the end of June. MR. MARTIN-Of '94. MR. MACEWAN-That's a minor detail that I think can be worked out later. MR. O'CONNOR-We recognize it, and we don't have a problem with it. I havê a problem with going to formal escrow. I would rather work out something with you. as to understanding of the conditions. On 90 percent of these things. on a project this size, you're going to end up issuing a temporary CO. not a final CO. and you're going to have a letter of conditions that are going to be with that temporary CO. MR. MARTIN-That's true. MR. O'CONNOR-And that can be one of the conditions. site specific per application. and I really don't have a problem with that. and I don't think the developer would have a problem with that. MR. MARTIN-Well. I just raise that because the Board does a lot of hard work in reviewing this stuff. and they do it in good faith that it will be actually accomplished. and I just want to make sure it's followed through on. MR. O'CONNOR-Any other issues that are unresolved. that we haven't satisfied? MRS. TARANA-I just wanted to ask along that same line, is there any mechanism already established if any project goes in. this one specifically. and traffic studies. whatever. come up with problems that have to be resolved. things that have to be changed. is there some mechanism in place that the owners of the property, of the project. have to pay their fair share. and that the burden isn't all on the tax payers? MR. MARTIN-I don't think so. and I think. and maybe Mike. could correct me if I'm wrong. The Town of Guilderland had something along those lines. They had a performance monetary. funding type mechanism where when a certain. it was a contribution had to be made to a general capital fund like for transportation improvements. MS. JOHNSTON-Transportation Development District. MR. MARTIN-No. no. Not that. No. This was something that was struck down in the courts. It was a fee associated with developments. Mike. have you heard of that? Paul Dusek knows. It was predevelopment. MS. JOHNSTON-Right. MR. MARTIN-It was like a recreation fee that we have now, impact fee. and it was struck down in the courts. That's the only thing I've ever heard that's. MR. O'CONNOR-Basically. we are charged with showing you what our reasonable anticipation of impact will be. and I don't think we try to tell you that we guarantee you that something else isn't going to come along that's going to have other impact. When you get into that area. you get away from planning. You get away from the jurisdiction of this Board, because I don't think that this Board has the right to. in effect. impose a moratorium on development. - 11 - .r -- based upon the existing zoning. and you get off into that area. when you start talking about what's gOing to happen. If everything within that zone develops. that responsibility. in general. lies with the Town Board. If they see that problems are developing. or you bring it to their attention that problems are developing. then maybe they've got to change some of the structure of the particular zone that's at issue. or maybe they've got to come up with some alternatives. kind of like what they're doing with in depth study of that traffic intersection right now. and some of the other areas to the north. between that intersection that we were talking about before and Aviation Road. or not Aviation Road, but the Northway. come up with some alternatives. MR. MARTIN-Well. I think what Corinne is talking about is. on a Town level. for a Town road improvement. that there's development of a certain area. why should the person in North Queensbury have his tax dollars spent to make the road improvement down in front of a certain store somewhere in the southern part of the Town. or on a State level. why should the entire State tax base have to support an improvement in this area. Is that what you're saying? MRS. TARANA-I guess basically what I. let me just back up and tell you where I'm coming from. I have a question about their study being done only through 1993. and I know that's appropriate. I heard that answer. but the end of 1993 is a very short time away. and it seems to me we should be looking further down the road than 1993. So what I'm thinking is, what if. with all these studies that are being done. they say. well. what should have been done here was. I don't know what. This is what should have been done. This is what you should do now. Okay. Who's burden will that be? That will be the tax payers burden. and what I'm saying is. if it's created by this project. or a good part of it's created by this project. then I feel that the owners of that project should have some of the burden of straightening it out. MR. STARK-They do with the taxes. the taxes they pay. MR. BREWER-That would be almost like saying the Aviation Road and 254 problem is created by Aviation Mall. so should Aviation Mall pay to straighten that problem out? MRS. TARANA-I'm not talking about a large area. What if somewhere down the road they say that light's in the wrong place. the light should be changed? Okay. Who's going to pay for changing the light? Are we going to pay for it? MR. O'CONNOR-Well. the State of New York always has the right to come back and review any and every curb cut permit that they issue. MRS. TARANA-Okay. Curb cuts. anything. from internalizing. that's what I'm getting at. MR. 0' CONNOR-Basically. what I'm thinking of is along Aviation Road. some people spent some money and put in different curb cuts, and had different signage on it. The State of New York came along. a couple of years afterward. and changed all those curb cuts. and changed the signage on some of the, that piece that goes into what's not Warren Tire was changed after the fact. and it was done by individual expense of that adjoining land owner. MR. MARTIN-Didn't. the Queensbury Plaza. when they changed their curb cut in front of the Grand Union. that was borne upon the land owner. when they aligned that access at the traffic signal there. in front of the Grand Union. MR. BREWER-That was Carr. he paid for that. MR. MARTIN-Yes. He paid for that change in the curb cut. and I think part of the traffic signal as well. So to answer your question, it is done. - 12 - -.' '- MR. BREWER-Who is going to own that light? MR. O'CONNOR-The State of New York. MR. BREWER-The State? It's not going to be the Town? MR. O'CONNOR-Well. I don't know what the arrangements. MR. WHITE-No. it'll permit signal. MR. MARTIN-Yes. and as such. that permit could be pulled. MR. O'CONNOR-By the State, or by us? MR. WHITE-These people hold a permi t to operate it on State property. MR. MARTIN-If you read that letter from DOT thoroughly, what he was saying was that if you really fUlly believe that the signal should be at the end of Weeks Road. then you have to show us a signalization plan and access management plan that will indicate that can work. Until such time we see that. we are going to go with what is our best judgement. MR. WHITE-That was DOT's comments. MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. O'CONNOR-I'll correct what I said. then. Bill. why don't you say that for the record. as to who will own that signal. HR. WHITE-The developer owns the signal. He operates it in the State highway under a permit and pays an annual fee for maintenance of the signal. MR. MARTIN-Which is pretty hefty. MR. WHITE-Yes. MR. MARTIN-You'd be surprised. Even the electrical costs. MR. BREWER-The electrical is paid by the owners? MR. WHITE-Yes. MR. HARTIN-I think it's in the thousands of dollars. MR. WHITE-Per year. yes. year. I think it's a couple thousand bucks a MR. MARTIN-I think it's even more than that. because the Town was trying to take over the one's on Quaker Road. and they were shocked at the electrical bill costs to run those lights. MR. 0' CONNOR-From a site plan point of view. though. have we answered the concerns? HR. HARLICKER-Did you address all the stuff in Rist-Frost's letter, of 6/22? MR. WHITE-Yes. we've addressed them all. and we didn't have any problem with it. any of the comments. MR. MACEWAN-Garnishing from the minutes of last week's meeting. and I kind of read them over this morning. had an opportunity to look at them. is the foot path that they're referring to in this going right from your property line all the way over to? MR. WHITE-Greenway Drive ends here. and there's a Town right-of-way that goes right to our property line. We're picking up right at - 13 - our property line. and extending it to our curb line. It's about 50 feet. MR. MACEWAN-So who's taking it from Greenway North to your property line? MR. WHITE-There's an existing walking path there. It's not very well established. but it's in the public right-of-way, and no improvements are proposed in that area. MR. MACEWAN-I was under the impression that's what was talked about? MR. MARTIN-No. What I was hoping to get out of this is on their property. have them do their thing. and then hopefully what comes out of our Route 9/254 study will be. the Town can pick that up now on our property. and run that up to the pavement edge on our right- of-way. MR. BREWER-Could we ask the Town Board to think about doing this at the same time they do it? MR. MARTIN-I think that would be very reasonable. talking about a whole lot of money. You're not MR. BREWER-No. Just some timbers and some crushed stone. How do we do that? How do we ask the Town Board to do that? MR. MACEWAN-In a resolution. MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-There was also some comments in here from Staff. regarding study for truck traffic up there. Was there anything followed up with that? "Potential impact of truck traffic does not appear to be considered in the study. The Board may request addi tional information regarding truck traf f ic and de live ries. II Was that all addressed? MR. WHITE-I think I addressed that the last time. MR. MACEWAN-I know it was talked about later on in the meeting. about how many trucks are going to be coming. about what time of day they're going to be coming back there. MR. BREWER-And only during the hours that the store is open. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I think it was five trucks a day. MR. MACEWAN-F i ve trucks a day. no later than 9: 30 at night. or something like that. HRS. TARANA-I wonder about that. because I thought about that afterwards. If you have those trucks now exiting on Weeks Road. is that the only place they can exit? Because now you've got cars coming out of Weeks Road. You've got an 18 wheeler in that line of cars trying to get out of Weeks Road. It seems to me that's going to just be creating more of a problem there. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. The Wal-Mart trucks will be exi ting out of Weeks Road. The Ames trucks will come out through the southern entrance. MRS. TARANA-Now. why can't the Wal-Mart trucks go out the same way? MR. HARLICKER-They can't. MR. WHITE-Because there's not adequate turning distance. They back in here. and there's not adequate turning distance to come back in this direction. - 14 - MR. HARLICKER-Could their loading docks be realigned. so they enter the same way Ames do? MR. WHITE-Well. we'd have to put them on this side. here. and the reason we kept them off here is to sort of keep them away from the residents. HR. MARTIN-Yes. That was a neighborhood concern. MR. HARLICKER-You've got them. they're loading into the. MR. WHITE-They're coming around here. backing here. and leaving right out there. MR. HARLICKER-Okay. MR. MARTIN-I think that was one of their concerns expressed in the neighborhood meeting you had. about where the trucks would be parked and idling during their delivery. MR. MACEWAN-How are the trucks going in. now? MR. WHITE-Wal-Mart and Ames trucks go different places. The Wal- Mart truck enters this way. comes around, backs into their loading dock. exits through Weeks Road. An Ames truck comes in from Weeks Road. backs up to here. and exits this way. Now smaller delivery trucks. panel type trucks. that might deliver things. and there are a few of them. could probably make this turn and come back uP. but the semi trailers, semi tractors. they're not going to be able to make that turn. and right now. what I've seen several times here. is this dock's configured in this direction. and these trucks park right across here. and block this right off. They come in here. and they go out Weeks Road. So they're going to be restricted now wi th this new thing. to have to exit out this way. the larger trucks at least. MR. GILCHRIST-Does the public have any input at this time? MR. BREWER-I was just going to suggest that. MR. GILCHRIST-Fred Gilchrist. Robert Gardens. I was just wondering. the entrance and exit. Weeks Road. the entrance of Weeks Road. at Route 9 is 25 feet wide. with curves on both sides. You're going to bring in at least three Ames trucks, and exit five of the Wal-Mart trucks. at that one exit. with all the other traffic. and to go one bit further. we seem to have forgotten that Route 9 has a transition section there. where they go from two lanes to one lane going north. and from one lane to two lanes going south. This occurs right there at that intersection. We have people coming up that don't see the sign. One Lane Ahead. They try and make it into one lane. squeeze two. The same thing coming south. the natives. the people who live in this area. that drive it every day. know that the road widens. As cars slow down to turn into Weeks Road. as they're going south. other cars attempt to pass them. because they know the road is wider. which catches the people coming out of Weeks Road, trying to make a left hand turn. These are the things we seem to have forgotten right there. I've been in and out of that road four times today. I think everybody else goes in three or four times a day. We have a problem. and the only problem is to get a light there. That light could operate exactly in con j unction wi th the other light. They could be operated simultaneously. I'm sure the State of New York is sufficient to do this. The other light. of course. is going to be controlled by Wal-Mart. Obviously. it's going to be controlled to favor Wal- Mart. not to favor north bound traffic. MR. WHITE-Well. actually. the DOT will determine the timing of the signal. MR. GILCHRIST-Well. you said it was Wal-Mart's light? - 15 - '-" -- v..... ~.......--" HR. WHITE-It is Wal-Mart's light. but DOT determines. first they determine where it went. Secondly. they determine how much green time they have on Route 9. because they're objective. I think as Shelly explained one time. is not to worry about people. how qUickly people can get out of here. but how well traffic flows on Route 9. and that's they're concern. They want to maximize the green time on Route 9. MR. MARTIN-And I spoke to Hark Kennedy. That's true. That's why they didn't opt for the light at Weeks Road and Sweet. because they said the red time on Route 9 would be too long. and they've had experiences other. as cited in that memo that was given to you. they've had other experiences with other off set intersections in the Capital District where now they've gone to a great expense to remove those signalized off set intersections. MR. GILCHRIST-The off set seems to work wonderful down at Fire Road. and Webster Avenue. MR. MARTIN-I asked him. That's what he said. Bill, is there adequate turning radius and room available at the mouth of Weeks Road. as it enters into Route 9? MR. WHITE-In this area here? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. WHITE-Yes. because these are really black top islands right in here. They tend to make that turn through part of that blacktop island. MRS. TARANA-But aren't they going to have to come over into this north bound lane to turn. coming out of Weeks Road? MR. WHITE-Here? MRS. TARANA-Yes. if the trucks want to come out and go south. MR. WHITE-They can make that turn. yes. without coming out into Weeks Road. The Ames trucks do it now. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anyone else who'd like to say anything? MR. STARK-Mr. White. what's the diameter of the islands where you propose to put the shade trees? MR. WHITE-I think what we did is we actually took one parking stall width right there. which is nine and a half feet. take a half inch for the width of the curb. so inside to inside, you're eight feet. MS. JOHNSTON-Half foot. MR. WHITE-Half foot, for the width of the curbing. so about eight foot inside. MR. MARTIN-And they're about how wide. then? MR. WHITE-Eight foot. inside to inside. MR. MARTIN-Yes. but I mean then length wise. or what? MR. WHITE-Eighteen foot deep stalls. times two. thirty-six. MR. STARK-And that's going to have one tree in it? MR. WHITE-Yes. in these islands here. two smaller shrubs in the areas underneath. MR. STARK-What's the height of your building in the front? - 16 - --- ',-, ,"'----' -~ MR. WHITE-Twenty-nine feet for the Wal-Mart side. MR. STARK-So these trees. if you're on Route 9 looking up, because you're lower. you won't even be able to see the front of Wal-Mart. MR. WHITE-Yes. and that's. frankly. one of the concerns we've always had with this site. If you've seen it. it's pretty pronounced right now. You really can't see the building. It's not going to be quite as bad. It will be visible. but there is a visibility concern in seeing that. and that's why we've asked for larger signs out front and some more building signage here to increase the visibility to the store. MR. STARK-Now. would you show me the path. if I was bringing my wife. and I was turning in at the signal. whether I'm coming from the north or the south doesn't matter. show me how I would drop her off at the front of the Ames store. MR. WHITE-You would. coming from the? MR. STARK-Say from the north. MR. WHITE-Coming from the north. you'd turn in at the signalized intersection. head up this way. here's the entrance in here. MR. STARK-I meant the Wal-Mart store. I'm sorry. MR. WHITE-The Wal-Mart store. You would have a choice. You could come here. cut over. and as you drive along here look for the opening that you'd like to take. or you could come down here. which doesn't seem. to me. to be a likely route. but you might come down to this way. You'd drive along this drive out here. If this was full. you'd look to the left. for parking in this area. MR. STARK-What do you call the path. of course. I don't know. You have all your parking by the islands. and then you have like these other. like more of a main area to get around. like around the perimeter. What do you call that road? MRS. TARANA-Like. you mean the road. . has a mock road. MR. STARK-What do you call that road? MR. WHITE-I'd call it a drive out. access drive. MR. STARK-As opposed to going down and parking? MR. WHITE-Yes. down at the parking lanes here. Probably a lot of the traffic would come through here. as you look to the right and left and search for an opening. MR. STARK-Ms. Johnston. does this light that you propose putting in. that DOT wants in front of the Ponderosa and your entrance. will that be synchronized with the light that is in front of Mr. B's Best down there. MS. JOHNSTON-The Northway Plaza? MR. STARK-Yes. MS. JOHNSTON-To the extent possible. but they're very far apart. I don't know what DOT is going to do try to synchronize. MR. STARK-Do you think there would be an advantage to having that synchronized with that. or just pop off, or what? MS. JOHNSTON-It depends on how old that signal is. if it's able to be. MR. MARTIN-I think it's been updated somewhat. recently. How do - 17 - '-" '-" they synchronize those service lights? Because I know that light will stay green on Route 9 until there's a build up of traffic in the plaza. HS. JOHNSTON-Exactly. That's what's going to happen is they're not gOing to be pre-timed. when you have intersections like that. or signals like that that are coordinated. they're pre-timed. So. every. say. thirty seconds. you have north bound traffic. and then no matter what's on the side streets. then they get twenty seconds. You have to have that in order to have two lights do the same thing at the same time. In this case. it's going to be what's called actuated. That light is not going to turn red for Route 9 traffic until someone comes out. until there are a few cars on that approach of the Wal-Mart driveway. Until someone drives over an actual thing in the driveway. and makes a call to the signal to say. there's someone here. Make the light turn red on Route 9. MR. WHITE-At two o'clock in the morning, this will turn green all the time. until someone comes out of the Plaza. MS. JOHNSTON-Right. MR. MARTIN-That's the way it is at Northway Plaza. MR. MACEWAN-Wait a minute. Run that one by me one more time. MS. JOHNSTON-This is going to stay. right. There's going to be Ii ttle loop detectors or magnetic detectors in there. So when there's no vehicle on this driveway. that means that this light is going to stay green all the time. until such time. at regular intervals. It doesn't do it any time a car drives up there. There's a regular cycle length of say 75 seconds. The signal cycle goes through 45 seconds. They have green on Route 9. If at the end of the 45 seconds there's nobody on this driveway. it stays green. and it keeps going green on Route 9 again through that cycle. At a certain interval. if the signal checks. and there's somebody that rode over that detector. then it'll go through that phase where they call a yellow on Route 9. then a red. then the green will come on for the driveway. The green on the driveway is only going to come. MR. MACEWAN-And it would trip only once every 45 seconds? MS. JOHNSTON-Only once probably every 12 seconds. whatever the signal timing is. but there's minimums. minimum times. and 75 seconds is about an average cycle length. So, you can see. even when you're driving down and you start looking around on driveways. you can see that square in the pavement. So this doesn't get called in regularly. So that there's not a red light on Route 9 when there's nobody in this driveway. MRS. TARANA-Did you say how long that... MS. JOHNSTON-No. I don't know what it's going to be. I don't know what the final signal timing is. I was giving an example. MR. WHITE-The State makes that determination. MR. STARK-Thank you. MR. BREWER-Is there anybody else who has any comments? MR. RUEL-I have a if somebody could west to the end. Northway there? question. I'm not that familiar with the area. he lp me. I f you go on Weeks Road all the way Is there a road that runs parallel to the MR. MARTIN-No. That's one of our ideas we're considering. with this traffic study. - 18 - "-'". .~ MR. RUEL-Yes. I was thinking of connecting that to the Carl ton light on Aviation Road. Is that a good idea? Is it too far away. or what? MR. BREWER-Where is it going to go. though? MR. RUEL-The light on Aviation Road. that's where they would come out. They would come out through that development. We're asking for trouble. MR. MARTIN-Well. I think to a certain extent that there has to be a realization, and that was one of Scott's ideas. They are in a. .world here. they're parked in an island. and if that's going to help traffic move. The thing I'm concerned about is is there enough physical space there. between the Northway right-of-way, and. MR. RUEL-If you look at the map. it looks like there is. and it would be ideal to have a road from there. allow these people to exit on to Aviation Road with a light. MR. MARTIN-We're going to look into that very same idea with the traffic study. The aerial photography is done. and now the mapping is being done with the topography and all that. and that'll tell us if we have enough room to run a right-of-way through there. MR. RUEL-It would alleviate your problem. MR. GILCHRIST-It would make it worse. MR. RUEL-Would it? MR. GILCHRIST-Absolutely. You're going to have everybody taking a short cut from Route 9 over to Aviation Road. MR. RUEL-Maybe. MR. GILCHRIST-Absolutely. They do it now through McDonalds, all the time. They're still doing it today. (TAPE TURNED) HR. O'CONNOR-. .site specific to this particular site plan. I think we've tried to accommodate each of the concerns that have been raised by Board members. by neighbors. by other agencies that are involved. I don't know what else we can actually do. If there's something else that you specifically want us to do. we need to know this evening. I think we've gone. not as far as we can go. but I think we've gone as far as it's reasonable, at this point. MR. BREWER-For my own self. I think you've addressed everything that I had. MR. STARK-Mr. O'Connor. did you get on Warren County Planning Board for July? MR. O'CONNOR-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I would strongly recommend that you get me new plans that I can get up to them. and I need them by a week from tomorrow, to make it for their agenda. MR. WHITE-If there's no changes to the plans, we'll Federal Express them to you tomorrow. MR. MARTIN-Okay. because this will be a big improvement. even over the recent set they have. MR. WHITE-And they have the updated traffic study and all the other supplemental information. - 19 - / '''-"''''- -"--'" - ...-/ MR. MARTIN-Yes. They just don't have the updated plan. this plan. HR. MACEWAN-Was it left we were going to get copies of your traffic configuration plans? MR. WHITE-I think they're on file. study? You mean the updated traffic MR. MACEWAN-No. no. HR. WHITE-The highway design plans? Yes. We'll update those. MR. MACEWAN-When you did the traffic study for the County. was that requested by Fred Austin from the County. asked you guys to do the traffic study? MS. JOHNSTON-No. It was a general request for proposals. and we competed against several other firms in the Capital District. MR. MARTIN-But was the traffic study requested by the Highway Department or the Planning Department. or the County Supervisor's. or who? MS. JOHNSTON-The Corridor Study? I don't know. MR. MARTIN-I think it was requested by the Glens Falls Transportation Concepts. MS. JOHNSTON-Yes. Organization for Council. That's this area who is was. the the Glens Metropolitan Planning Falls Transportation MR. MARTIN-Right. Council. MR. MACEWAN-You also mentioned that this was done in conjunction with the people at DOT? HS. JOHNSTON-One of the members of the Glens Falls Transportation Council is an employee of DOT. She's an advisor. MR. MACEWAN-Who would that be? MS. JOHNSTON-Right now. it's Joanna Brunso. Keith VanKuren. Is that correct? At the time. it was HR. MARTIN-Yes. and Ken Carlson. Joanna's taken over for Ken Carlson. I have her card. phone number. address. all that. MR. BREWER-So. you're going to ask about the sign. who's going to do that. about the sign? MS. JOHNSTON-I can give that information. for the dimensions and the actual New York State number that goes with the sign. I can give that to Bill. and he can include that on his plan tomorrow. MR. O'CONNOR-We will include that in our request to DOT for their final approval. MR. BREWER-Anything else from anybody? MR. MACEWAN-Not at this point. from me. MR. BREWER-I guess we're done. I'll leave the public hearing open. and then if there's any comment from anybody from the public. we can hear it. MR. MARTIN-So. Bill. have you got any new plans you can leave with me tonight at all. any copies of that? MR. WHITE-I brought four of these. It's just a site. utility. - 20 - - grading and landscaping. It doesn't have the details. but you can keep the other three. or keep all four. MR. MARTIN-Just get me a complete set. then. MR. WHITE-Just a procedural question. Will it be a problem if we go to the Planning Board. and then the Zoning Board of Appeals the next night for the Sign Variance? MR. MARTIN-It's separate issues. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-This Board does not look at signs. only in terms of your placement on the site. SITE PLAN NO. 33-93 TYPE I PC-1A ZAREMBA GROUP. INC. OWNER: CLAUDE CHARLEBOIS WALTER & JUNE MITCHELL LOCATION: SOUTHWESTERLY CORNER OF DIX AVENUE AND QUAKER ROAD. CONSTRUCTION OF A 167.318 SQ. FT. RETAIL STORE. CROSS REFERENCE: P4-93 BEAUTIFICATION COMMITTEE - 6-7-93 WARREN COUNTY PLANNING - 6-9-93 TAX MAP NO. 110-1-2.1. 22 LOT SIZE: +28.2 ACRES SECTION: 179-22 D TIM MORGAN; JIM CONNORS. PRESENT MR. BREWER-Okay. How do we want to start this? Do we want to go over Scott's notes. and then we can go over this a little bit slower? MR. HARLICKER-Well. they pretty much tie right into the EAF notes. MR. BREWER-Well. what Tim just said. we go over them real quick. and he can address the notes that we had from the meeting. MR. HARLICKER-Right. Okay. MR. BREWER-If you want to do that. MR. CONNORS-Okay. Do you want me to go through it? MR. MORGAN-Yes. if you want to. and I'll just add things as we go. MR. CONNORS-Now that everyone has one before them. the response to the Town requirements. I'm sure you've all had a chance to read it. It goes down in the exact order that Scott's Note To File went. and it addresses each answer. addresses each question in exact order. The first one was Project Information. and it says. Section A Question 8 of the Long Form. answer to this question is blank. That question pertains to the Depth to Water Table. and we've indicated that it's three to twelve feet below existing grade. It varies across the site. and essentially we're asking you to please revise the official copy to indicate such. The next one is Section A. 17B. I'm going to essentially read Scott's comment here. that the site is served by existing utilities and no improvements are necessary for connection. Extension of sewer district and lines will be required for lawful connection to municipal sewer. Our response is that it was the original intention of the Project Sponsor to receive access to the Town sewer system. As they are not a district user. they have a privately owned sewer line. and essentially. please revised official copy to reflect current status of project. which now requires the extension of the Town of Queensbury Sewer District. MR. MORGAN-We're actually up in the air about that. and maybe that's an issue that we could come back to and talk about in detail. Until very recently. we had the intention to extend the actual sewer district and receive our sanitary that way. In speaking with Mike Shaw and Mike Brandt recently. and I touched on this with Jim. Mike Brandt gave me a preliminary indication that the Town Board would be willing to provide a sanitary as a contract - 21 - --- user. with the caveat being that we would go ahead. at some point in the future. and extend that di strict al so. There's a good possibility that we'd go and extend the sanitary sewer district route. and it could take a number of months to do that. In the interim. if we proceed with the Town Board. and gain their approval. as an outside contract basis. it would probably speed up the process. and I explained to Mike that we would be more than happy to condition that upon some type of agreement. lets say wi thin one calendar year of store opening. that we have that district formally extended. MR. BREWER-Okay. Can I ask a question? I know when you first brought this to the Town Board. and then to the Planning Board. we basically had a joint meeting. one of the scenarios was to go down with that road in the subdivision for the Industrial Park. Now that AMG is going in there. they're going to extend that line. Is there any way to work with them and tie in with them? MR. MORGAN-That was suggested to us as a viable option. and I have talked with AHG Industries in regard to that. and do to a number of reasons. there's really two primary reasons. I am hesitant to hook our building up as a commercial user. based on an industrial use using that sanitary sewer. If there is a problem. I may not want to be involved with the industrial use of that system. Number One. and Number Two. there was a condition made to us. that if we were given approval by AMG to use that line on their property. and for us to give their. or them to give us an easement. they want it to be guaranteed to work on a.. .basis. and I did not feel comfortable about giving them the work on the work on a. ..basis. MR. MARTIN-I think it was Mike Shaw's impression. too. that that wasn't the best thing to do. MR. MORGAN-No. MR. HARTIN-Connecting private property. MR. BREWER-No. I just recall the picture of that road coming out. MR. MORGAN-And we had..at one point. if we could proceed. and we were given the green light. and then AMG came into the picture. MR. BREWER-And that killed it. MR. MORGAN-Well. it actually brought it head, I think. MR. BREWER-Yes. So how would you hook up now? You'd go out to Dix and then go down Dix? MR. CONNORS-Yes. Essentially. the sanitary sewer would run up to gravity. along the back of the building to a pump station. which will run up to a gravity sewer. It'll run along the southern side of Dix Avenue down to Progress Boulevard, and tie into the sanitary sewer system located in Progress Boulevard. It will be gravity from the site entrance. all the way down. So it won't preclude any additional extensions. MR. BREWER-It seems more expensive that way. MR. MACEWAN-That was one of your original proposals. wasn't it? MR. MORGAN-It was the only thing that we were guaranteed that we could get.. .outside additional help. So we elected to pursue that as a conservative route. to guarantee the project a utility that it needed to function. and I think the Board members should have the engineer's report. and that details how that's going to be done. and the cost. MR. MACEWAN-That was Option Three. - 22 - -- MR. MORGAN-At the time of that meeting. you're correct. it was. Option Three is now Number One. MR. CONNORS-Now it was Number Two. Option Three was to go to the existing system on a sanitary line located in the City of Glens Falls. just over their line. which is a much further route. and it actually would require a pump station for a longer route. MR. BREWER-How long is this route? MR. CONNORS-Nineteen hundred feet. MR. BREWER-Nineteen hundred feet? MR. CONNORS-More or less. Yes. MR. BREWER-It seems a waste to have to go that far. when the line is going to be. I don't know how close the other line is going to be. MR. CONNORS-Well. it would be a private line, as well. MR. MORGAN-It would be about. it would be six. seven hundred feet probably. So. yes. it would be less. and we would save on linear feet of pipe. but there are a number of issues. and we really want to get into a discussion with Hike Shaw. because he really sat us down and said why this might be a good idea. and even Tom Yarmowich gave us some additional information. he doesn't feel it's a good idea. MR. B~EWER-As long as the engineer has looked at it. and it's not a good idea. and you're willing to go the other way. MR. MORGAN-And I wouldn't want you to listen to me. I want you to hear it from Tom. MR. MARTIN-What you have to remember is this is ultimately going to be. if they go the district extension route. this'll be public sewer line. and it's better. I think as a general practice. on a public sewer line. in a pUblic right-of-way. as opposed to going through private property. MR. STARK-That's. what. an eight inch main? MR. CONNORS-Yes. an eight inch main. MRS. TARANA-Is all of this sewer business the cost of the applicant? MR. CONNORS-Yes. It's borne by the applicant. MR. BREWER-Okay. So how does that work? You put it all in. then the Town inspects it. and then you give it to the Town? MR. MORGAN-We would probably put it in at our cost. have it certified. not only by Mike Shaw. but by the Town Engineering Consultant. and then dedicate it to the Town. MRS. TARANA-And you know the Town will take it? MR. MORGAN-I would assume they would want it. because that's going to open up the area to public sewer. MRS. TARANA-Okay. MR. MARTIN-That's why I say. it's better to put it in the road. MR. MORGAN-That's what. Jim. I would imagine. would want to take that. - 23 - '- - MR. CONNORS-And that was what. one of the reasons why we opted to go with gravity from the site down to Progress Boulevard. We could have gone to force main. which would have been. would have restricted to our site. because it's from a private pump station. MR. MARTIN-I think. for the Board's benefit. you guys. you go by those terms. but you should define. for me anyway. force main. MR. STARK-A force main you can't tap into. that's all. MR. MORGAN-Exactly. Basically. it would have been selfish. if you want to describe it like that. MR. CONNORS-And if I am going right by, and I say something that. lets clarify that. but if there is anything that I just kind of zip by. please stop me. and tell me to clarify it. Are we all set on the sewer? MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. CONNORS-Okay. and the next question was Section B, Question 1G. which regarded the trip generations per hour for the project site. and essentially what we're saying is that the project trip generation is less than 1.000 vehicle trips per hour. and will be provided within the traffic study. We will have it prior to your July 20th meeting. MRS. TARANA-Who's doing the traffic study? HR. CONNORS-We are. C. T. Male Associates is doing the traffic study. and we've been coordinating with. the trip generation has already been approved by New York State DOT for the project site. It's less than 1.000. actually, it's less than 900 trips per hour. MR. MORGAN-We'd be happy to supply those letters to the Board. MR. CONNORS-Well. they have indicated they won't give us a letter. They will approve the traffic study, but they won't give us individual letters approving every little aspect of it. We've been dealing with the County. We've also been dealing with Joanna Brunso at the Warren/Washington County Planning. MR. BREWER-And we will have a traffic study. when? MR. CONNORS-Before your July 20th. your next regular meeting. MR. BREWER-How much before. not the day before? MR. CONNORS-As soon as we get it. We're not. obviously. we're not looking for approval the end of July. because there will still be a number of issues that will have to be addressed. We will get it to you as soon as we have it completed. It's really not us that's been holding it up. We've been trying to go. but the State has not given us the information. just to let us go. Certain stages have to be approved. prior to us. MR. BREWER-So. I guess in my mind. what are we missing? missing the traffic study. We're MR. MARTIN-The other aspect that's key is I definitely want to see a letter from the County Highway Department. Roger Gebo specifically. signing off on that. because I know he has plans in hand for widening of Quaker Road in front of this store. and I want to make sure that that dove tails with his design. and whatever physical improvements you're intending to make. MR. CONNORS-That will be a requirement anyway. because we will have to get a permit from the DPW before. MR. MORGAN-Not only that. Dix and Quaker are County roads. - 24 - -/. MR. MARTIN-Right. HR. MORGAN-So. we couldn't go anywhere without Roger seeing the traffic study. and he'd have to approve it. HR. MARTIN-That's why I say that. MR. CONNORS-And we' reactually meeting with him tomorrow night anyway. to go over this exact issue. MR. BREWER-So we're missing the traffic study. a letter from Warren County. What else are you missing. that you're going to have for us? MR. CONNORS-Whatever amendments to the map that come up from this. MR. HARLICKER-Have you been working with Tom Yarmowich on the engineering for stormwater? MR. CONNORS-We have submitted a full package. through Jim. to Tom Yarmowich. and we got your correspondence. transmitting all that information to him. and I have not spoken wi th him as of yet. because I want to give him some time at least to take a look at the plans. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. He was going to try to give us something today. but. MR. MORGAN-Yes. I talked with him Friday. He said he was going to do his best. but he said he was relatively short. and again. this being a special meeting. we couldn't expect him to have something in three days. He's just too busy. . MR. CONNORS-I will call Tom tomorrow and touch base. see if he's had a chance to look it over. and to see if we can incorporate any of his comments to that. Hopefully. we can get them in writing. to make sure we've addressed all the comments. MR. MARTIN-And part and parcel of that. you are working with the Corp of Engineers on the wetlands issue. right? HR. CONNORS-Correct. MR. MARTIN-And I think that's going to be. well. that's part of your stormwater plan. as I understand it. right? MR. BREWER-We will get a letter from the Corp? MR. MARTIN-You have. permit's required. isn't it? MR. CONNORS-Yes. They're going to sign off on the delineation. and the wetland mitigation. We would hope that we can get that approval conditional upon receipt. MR. BREWER-And they'll tell you what you have to do. as far as establishing? MR. CONNORS-We address it. As we go forward in the response. that was something that was brought up. MR. MORGAN-Yes. because there's some other things we'd like to talk about.. .instead of just. MRS. TARANA-Excuse me just one second. while I'm thinking about it. Tim. to add to your list of things that we need, but not from ~he applicant. I requested a letter from the Town Attorney regard1ng that situation with Warren County. MR. MARTIN-I talked to him about that. and with his vacation. - 25 - '- - HRS. TARANA-I know he's on vacation. before July's meeting. or whenever they're scheduled to meet. MR. MARTIN-Well. I think what you're going to see before you see anything from Paul. because he won't be back in the office until the 12th. It's due on the County agenda the 14th. and that should be resolved maybe in the context of that meeting. MRS. TARANA-Okay. and if not. then we'll get an interpretation from him. MR. MARTIN-Then. yes. MR. CONNORS-Okay. So. essentially. we've identified Question 1G wi th the trip generation. The next one is still Section B. Question 2. which is that significant increase in traffic as a result of the project. documentation supporting this answer is required. I read 12, I'm sorry. Question 2. which was regarding blasting on the site. and it seems that some. .will occur. Essentially. my response was it's the intent of the project sponsor to balance the site. thereby resulting in no material. obviously excluding construction debris. being removed from the site. and if material is to be removed from the site. all necessary permits and approvals will be attained prior to such action. MR. MORGAN-As a matter of fact. we're going to end up bringing material into the site. MR. CONNORS-We just completed our cut fill analysis. and we will be hauling material into the site as opposed to off the site. MR. BREWER-How much? MR. CONNORS-We're going to try to work that down. but it's about 40.000 yards right now. which is mainly under the building. MR. BREWER-Okay. How is that going to be? MR. HARLICKER-How does that translate to dump trucks coming in and out? MR. MARTIN-The average capacity is about 20 or 30 yards a truck? MR. STARK-Ten or twelve. MR. MACEWAN-Tandem trucks? you're talking about. It depends on what kind of trucks MR. CONNORS-Tractor trailer. MR. BREWER-Forty foot trailers? And how is that traffic going to be controlled? MR. MORGAN-It'll be controlled via the circulation that's already there. I don't know that the Town's going to want temporary roads set up. MR. BREWER-No. no. no. I don't mean tractor trailer after tractor trailer after tractor trailer coming down Dix Avenue. MR. HORGAN-We'd have to find out where we're going to bring the fill in from. MR. BREWER-Well. I don't know how you could find that out now. MR. MORGAN-When we ascertain where we could find it. Tim. I'd be happy to sit down with Jim and tell him where it's coming from. and we can sit down. before we award the contract. and make it very clear that it has to come in. - 26 - "-"'" - HR. BREWER-The least obtrusive route that you can possibly do. residential. after you get past. MR. MARTIN-Quaker Road would probably make the most sense. depending on where it's coming from, obviously. but if it can be brought down Quaker. MR. BREWER-I've probably got to believe that it would probably come out that way anyway. That's where all the pits are. mostly up this way. right? MR. MARTIN-Yes. There's a pit up Ridge Road here. north of Quaker, way north of Quaker. HR. MORGAN-Once we find out where it can come from. and when award the contract. we will have met with Jim, and made sure that they're clear and we're clear of the... MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. TARANA-Is this the Section. too. about blasting near streams? The EAF? I think you just want to be aware of that. there is a sensi ti ve facili ty. The Community Workshop. and they do have clients in there. MR. CONNORS-And that brings us back to. there's another question there regarding blasting. This was not related to the blasting issue itself. MRS. TARANA-Okay. MR. CONNORS-If everything is clear on that one. it would bring us to the next question. which is Question 12. under Section B. which was. significant increase in traffic. MR. MORGAN-I think we already touched on that. HR. CONNORS-Yes. which is essentially the same thing. We'll be providing a traffic study to identify this. and coordinating with everyone. which brings us to the next question. which is essentially the project analysis that was done by Scott for Part II of the Long Form. Will the Proposed Action Result in a Physical Change to the Project Site. Scott had pointed out blasting. and Item A addresses blasting. and it'll be performed by a qualified firm. and will comply with all local. State regulations. Blasting operations will employ techniques which ensure that existing structures. residences. and the public are protected from harm. Hours of operation will be limited to a time period deemed acceptable to the Town. the Planning Board. and that the transmission of vibrations resulting from blasting operations will be monitored and limited to two inches per second. a rate which will protect existing utilities and structures from disturbance. MR. RUEL-What does that mean. two inches per second. do you know? HR. CONNORS-It's a vibration rate. It's a measurement. MR. RUEL-Yes. I know. but what does it mean? Is it measured on a scope? MR. MORGAN-It's measured on an actual meter that's somewhere in the vicinity of what you're blasting. New York State has regulations as to the strength blasts that can occur on something of this nature. MR. MARTIN-What is the acceptable rate. Jim, do you know? MR. CONNORS-Greater than two. Two is recommended by the geotechs for the project. This brings us to the second part that question. 1190 parking spaces. in regards to the 49 percent permeable surface - 27 - -- - of the pavement. and we provided a stormwater management report. We submitted that last Friday. all stormwater counts. We've mitigated. the increase in runoff. We would maintain essentially the same water shed and points of discharge. We've attenuated peak flows from the two year. ten year. twenty-five. fifty. one hundred. So the wetland mitigation that's occurring as part of the Army Corp jurisdiction requires a larger area than normal. and that's why. when we did the analysis. we made sure that the peak grades at down stream facilities are not impacted. So. again. this goes back to the Feeder Canal issue regarding erosion. sedimentation. and surcharging the Feeder Canal. Surcharge essentially a rate at which the water gets to the facility. We've actually improved and reduced the peak rates that are realized at the Warren Street structure. which discharge over into the Feeder Canal. So we're not doing any improvements down on Warren Street. but we're just maintaining the existing peak grades from the water shed. MR. MARTIN-Now. in terms of this mitigation for the Army Corp. could you show me the approximate location of the designated wetland and. correct me if I'm wrong. MR. CONNORS-There's a print on that package. We submitted it with the original package. MR. MARTIN-Okay. I haven't looked that over in detail. I just want to make sure I. and then you're going to essentially recreate a wetland on another part of the site. MR. MORGAN-We actually will scoop it up. and put it somewhere else. and recreate it. and we have hired a wetland reclamation specialist to monitor that work. and we have to. I believe over a five year period annually, the Corp will come out and certify that it's in compliance. MR. BREWER-I guess what I don't understand is. the wetland is created by underground water. right? MR. MORGAN-Well. it's a combination of a number of things. hydrology. which is the soils and the presence of water. the vegetation that's there. and then the combination of the water. So what we can do is artificially recreate all those things. What we do is artificially recreate what we're taking out. and the print that Jim just put up on the Board is a delineation of the wetlands as they currently exist on the site. There are primarily three pockets. There is one pocket behind Livingstons Furniture. a long narrow band of...quality. which is basically where the building would be. and the third pocket to the west would remain and would not be impeded at all by the development. This morning at eleven o'clock I met with Heidi Firstenstall. who is a representative of the Army Corp of Engineers. She basically approved the delineation as approved by C.T. Male. We will have a letter of jurisdiction. hopefully by the end of the week. if not by early next week. and then at that point. our wetlands specialist will prepare what is called a PVM. it's an approved discharge notification. That is basically a report of what is there. That is. in turn. submitted to the Army Corp of Engineers. The Army Corp of Engineers. once they do a jurisdiction determination. in essence approve what's there. It's then sent to two different bodies for approval. the EPA and the Fish and Wildlife Department. Those are the two bodies that will make the determination about whether or not to accept what is there and what we're proposing to replace it with. The Corp has to have comments. I believe. from all involved agencies within 30 days of the submittal to the Corp. So if we submitted July 1st. we will have all answers by August 1st on the wetlands situation. MR. BREWER-Where do you propose to put it? MR. CONNORS-Within stormwater management areas on the. - 28 - -- - -- ---- MR. MORGAN-If we flip back for just a second. Jim. On the east side of the site. if you'll flip that up for a second. you'll see the large parcel. that in small letters I believe says stormwater management area? That parcel exceeds what we would need to adequately maintain stormwater. MR. BREWER-So actually you're going to be putting the wetlands right there? MR. MORGAN-We're going to try and combine them. That's exactly it. on that site. MR. CONNORS-And it's going to be an amenity. as opposed to. MR. MORGAN-We're going to screen it. buffer it, and probably put a chain link fence around it. So you're not going to see a lot of shopping carts and beer cans and crap like that in there. MR. CONNORS-And obviously. as far as K-Mart is concerned. they don't want it. This is going to be their front door. MR. BREWER-That would be a perfect place. It would give it beauty. MR. CONNORS-I don't know if anybody's been to the Clifton Country Mall, down by Shop N' Save. They have a little wetland area with a pond. and it's a real amenity. MR. MARTIN-I just want to know. for my own sake. how much is this costing. would you say. in round ball park figures. to deal with this whole situation. essentially scoop up, go through this permitting process. recreate this here? MR. MORGAN-Probably close to $100.000 when it's all done. MR. MARTIN-And for how much acreage of wetland? MR. MORGAN-Two point three. two point four. MR. HARTIN-Okay. MRS. 'I'ARANA-I just have one question. If you put that up where that wetland is..I understand. that strip there is the wetlands you're going to move over. MR. CONNORS-Are they actually numbered. Number One and Number Two? MRS. TARANA-They must be going to do something. MR. CONNORS-We're just going to fill this area. fill all the wetlands. MR. MORGAN-The problem. the wetlands and the environmental issue, in my opinion. swung too far to one way. I think it is important to maintain what is there. but when you become to a paranoid level. something like this. with the jobs it's going to create and the benefit it will bring to the community. and lets say. for instance. we aren't able to get approval. that's going to kill this whole project. MRS. TARANA-Well. it's not going to kill your project. You could move to another site. MR. HORGAN-Well. in that sense. this is the only site that will kill the project if we don't get approved. MRS. TARANA-On this particular piece of land. but can the Corp of Engineers come in. Are you at the point where you have to do this. or are you at the point where they're going to say. well. this wetlands is of no value. for whatever reason. - 29 - ---....~ -- - MR. MORGAN-It's a situation that. when we come in and develop something like this. lets say we decided to ignore it. and I knew it was there. I'm just trying to paint a picture, and we get site plan approval from this Board. and we're three months into construction and we spend a great deal of money. and somebody comes in who's familiar with that type of vegetation and plants. etc.. and says. I think there's wetlands out there. Have you had this approved by the Corp. and we never did. the Corp could come in and shut down the entire project. and they will. MRS. TARANA-I realize that. but I mean. can they come in and say, part of this is not worth? MR. MORGAN-Well. to be honest with you. Heidi said today. a lot of it is very low quality wetland. MRS. TARANA-I mean. I know there are different classes of wetlands. MR. MORGAN-Exactly. but by our alerting them to the fact that there are wetlands there. we to sink or swim. We have no choice now whatsoever. MRS. TARANA-Right. MR. CONNORS-One of the other issues. just to further clarify. there are wetlands that you could. you could fill up to an acre of Corp wetlands. without doing anything. If this was the only wetland we had. we could fill that without any question. MRS. TARANA-But is it the accumulation of wetlands on the whole property? MR. MORGAN-Exactly. MR. CONNORS-Yes. It's the accumulation of wetlands that you are actually disturbing. not the total acreage of wetlands on the site. It's the total acreage of what you're disturbing. MRS. TARANA-Right. MR. CONNORS-As far as getting Corp sign off in which no mitigation measures would be required. is if we were only disturbing this area here, they would come out. We would still have to prepare this. We would have to get their sign off. to say yes, this is the only wetlands on your site. and they would give you your permit. and it's a Nationwide 26 Permit. which is just a name for the application and firm itself. in which case. they issue that. and nobody can hold us up after that. which will be the same situation. once we get our Nationwide 26 Permit. there's another Section under that for this work. Once they approve it. they can't hold us up. MR. MORGAN-Obviously. we did not want to spend the money to go through this circus. but it's not worth it. to me. to get into this and have the project started and have some environmentalist shut the whole thing down. You're looking at spending $100.000. versus $15 or $20 Million. That's what it boils down to. So. that's where we are. MR. BREWER-Okay. We're on Number Three? MR. MORGAN-No. Number Two. which is just an acknowledgement. You indicated that there are no unique or unusual land forms on the site. We acknowledge that. Number Three. protective waterbody. which is the wetlands. and it requires their approval. just like we went through. and.. .we're waiting for direction by the Corp. which we just got today. as to how we should proceed. and Number Four. proposed action effect any nonprotected existing or new body of water. and there are no protected water bodies. We acknowledge that. Five. and all we did here was refer to Part I Project. .Eight above. which was the approximate depth to water table varies from - 30 - -- -./ - three to twelve feet. and then Number B for that is. refer to project. Question 1B above. which is the stormwater issues which we just discussed. Question 6. 1B again. which was sto~mwater re~ated. and .Q~estion 7. 1G above. which was the traffic study. We II be provldlng that, and 7B was regarding erosion and sediment control measures will be addressed in the project plan and the stormwater management plan report being prepared. Erosion and sediment control measures that should be employed during and after construction to protect existing water courses. Question 8. we acknowledge that. Everything is acknowledged, right up to Question 14. HR. BREWER-I have a Question on 12. What's paleontological? MR. HARLICKER-Dinosaurs. MR. BREWER-I've been listening to Ed say it for two and a half years. MR. CONNORS-Question 14 has to do with the transportation system. and essentially we're just referring to Item 12 again. we'll do a traffic study. Fifteen's acknowledged. Sixteen. Question 1A above. which the blasting issues. I believe. MR. HARTIN-Do you have any preliminary assessment. or idea of the traffic improvements and the road improvements that will have to be made? Do you have any preliminary idea on that? MR. MORGAN-That's totally up to the discretion of the County and DOT. MR. CONNORS-And State. MR. MORGAN-I can tell you what I'd like to see. I can't tell you what I think you'll see. and it's up DOT and the County. MR. MARTIN-You have no read on that yet? MR. MORGAN-All we do is we take the generation that we feel. that we know that this development will generate. the site generation. trip numbers. and analysis. We'll submit that in a report to DOT and the County. They'll review it. based on the historical data. and they'll send us back a comment letter. a report. whatever you want to call it. and they're going to say. based on the existing road transportation system. and what you're going to add to it. these are the improvements that need to be done. A. B. C. D. and we'll have to live with those. or we don't get project approval. MR. MARTIN-Okay. MR. CONNORS-The reason we don't have a handle on that yet. is they just approved the trip generation. expanding our site. MR. BREWER-So you..submit a sketch of what you'd like to propose? MR. MORGAN-They've got the site plan. with them in this room back in January. in that meeting. with Ken Carlson. They know about it. We met Jim. I think that you were MR. MARTIN-Yes. Ken Carlson. MR. MORGAN-So they've known about this project for quite a long time. MR. CONNORS-And now they're starting to require full project plans be submitted with the reports. So that they can review the internal traffic movements. MR. BREWER-I guess what my thought would be, is Roger Gebo said they were going to widen Quaker Road. Are these improvements that - 31 - - -- ~ you plan on doing going to be so that they'll accommodate that widening of the road? MR. MORGAN-Tim. I'll be very honest with you. I don't plan on doing any of them. DOT and the County came back and said this is what has to be done. This is what I've got to do. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. MARTIN-I heard Roger Gebo here that day, though, when we had our meeting. Fred Caravan was here. from your firm. and he is certainly going to make sure that whatever he calls for. in terms of improvements in front of this project. are going to be in compliance. widening plans. MR. BREWER-I guess what I would say that if they're going to widen Quaker Road in '96. and your project is going to happen in '94. down the road. you know what's going to happen. Why not. if the driveway should go here. don't put it here. I'm not saying that. MR. CONNORS-That's something they will be telling us. That'll be something that'll be incorporated into the requirements. MR. BREWER-Sure as we're sitting here. they'll tell you to put it in the wrong place. MR. MACEWAN-Is the widening of Quaker Road definitely on the books? MR. MARTIN-Roger Gebo made the statement that Quaker Road, the completion of the widening. meaning from Ridge Road to Warren Street. will be done within three years. Now. as to whether that means on the books. he made that statement. that within three years it will be done. MR. CONNORS-It's already funded? MR. MARTIN-The design work is already done. I don't know about the funding of it. but the design work is done. They did all the other work. for the $1.4 Million. They got. like. it was half of. MR. MORGAN-Jim, our traffic study has to do a 10 year projection. doesn't it? MR. CONNORS-I think that was a requirement. MR. MORGAN-That's what I thought. HR. MACEWAN-A requirement for your specific project. or is that a general DOT requirement? MR. CONNORS-Taking into consideration a background growth which is being done by Transportation Systems for the County. They've already established a background. MR. MARTIN-I think it's a County requirement. MR. CONNORS-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-Tell me why Wal-Mart has it. MR. MARTIN-They're on a State road. not a County road. The State's requirements are different. MR. MORGAN-Dix and Quaker are County roads. MR. BREWER-We can require that. can't we? MR. MARTIN-You can ask to see that. yes. MR. BREWER-We can require it. then. - 32 - -- .---- MRS. TARANA-That's got more impact. I feel. than this project. a 10 year span. over MR. BREWER-We can discuss that after these people get done. It only makes sense that if you're planning development for the Town. and you guys are doing a 10 year study. then why shouldn't they up there? MRS. TARANA-Because it's not within the purview of our. MR. HARLICKER-The County is making them. MR. BREWER-We have a right to ask them for anything we want. We have the right to ask them for any information we want. MRS. TARANA-Well. how come nobody says anything? MR. STARK-Yes. but if you ask them for a 10 year study, what's that going to tell you? MR. CONNORS-In 10 years. the system may not be functioning properly. MR. MORGAN-That's exactly what it tries to assess. whether or not the system is viable. based on 10 years of projected growth. MR. CONNORS-And in general that is. I believe. for the mitigation measures that are being implemented as part of the project. MR. MORGAN-Exactly. MR. CONNORS-They're not taking into consideration areas that have been identified. and the year that it opens. MRS. TARANA-I can understand that. to some extent. MR. CONNORS-Okay. Seventeen and eighteen are acknowledged. and that brings us to the end of Scott's Note To File. unless there's. MR. MACEWAN-Quickly. just getting back to the traffic thing for a minute. Have you guys gotten any kind of preliminary plans for what you want to do with. like. traffic controls and stuff? MR. CONNORS-No. nothing other than the site access. MR. MARTIN-You've got a proposed signal. don't you? MR. CONNORS-No. we don't. MR. MORGAN-We won't get a signal. MR. CONNORS-We won't get a signal here. and the traffic study's not complete to tell us whether we need signals here or here. or anywhere else. MR. MARTIN-There was one preliminary comment. and it came up in the context of the meeting. and that was the position of this driveway. Although they're doing the best they can with it. these distances here are kind of short. HR. MACEWAN-Well. there was original talk. in the original presentation. I thought, of putting the signal here. and someone raised a concern about it being a.. .area. would it be a tough time seeing it. MR. MARTIN-No, I don't think you're going to have a signal. in that this is signalized and this is signalized. So. I think what you are going to see. though. is. this is my personal opinion. is turn lanes of all sorts. right hand turn lanes, left hand turn lanes - 33 - --" '-' installed here. Anywhere. of probably a pretty lengthy nature. would be my guess. MR. MORGAN-That would be something that would be mandated in the traffic study. MR. MACEWAN-Coming out of the main driveway right there. what could you do to ease that traffic problem with people wanting to turn left? MR. MORGAN-Those are the kind of questions that the traffic study will take a look at. MRS. TARANA-Are those green strips on the parking lot green areas? MR. MORGAN-Yes. HRS. TARANA-So far. I like just the looks of the green. It doesn't look like all blacktop. It's sort of like the Shop N' Save. Your building will be perpendicular to the road. right. the main entrance will be perpendicular? MR. CONNORS-There's three main entrances. MR. MORGAN-It would be very similar. you substitute Dix for Quaker. and Quaker for Bay. a very similar situation. MR. MARTIN-The other thing I'd like to have the Board to have a chance to look. I think. Tim. would be. since you mentioned you are going to an architectural review meeting. internally. with K-Mart. is if we could get any opinion at all from the Board. in terms of architectural appearances or treatments to the outside. that you could relay back. MR. MORGAN-They're standard identity. so to speak. on the new stores is the gray and the scarlet. MR. MARTIN-Yes, but I mean. you had a rendering there with some. MR. MORGAN-That rendering is a generic stock rendering. It's just meant to try and show what a Super K. MR. MARTIN-Well. there were some things ~ thought were fairly nice on there. MR. MORGAN-But what I don't want to do is I do not want to mislead the Board as to appearance. and that with the barrel tile is a custom that was done in the suburb outside of Orlando. due to some extremely strict architectural codes. and I don't want to sit here and infer to the Board that that would be what they would do. MR. MARTIN-Well. my main. I like the archways over the entrances and things like that. MR. MORGAN-What I'm saying is. those archways are custom. K-Hart does not want to deviate from their strict criteria. and my point by making this almost laborious point. is that I do not want to infer to anyone here. or mislead them. that that's what they do. MR. MACEWAN-Do you have something to show? MR. MORGAN-If you look at this. you'll see the maroon and the gray. and the only thing that's different is the archway and the green barrel tile. If you took the barrel tile out and the archway. that would be the Super K. So. you replace the green barrel tile with the green block. That's what you have. MRS. TARANA-What's the barrel tile? MR. MORGAN-It's the green tile that you see across the front. It's - 34 - '-' --- / ......." '-'" similar to what's up on the Shop N' Save. They call it barrel tile. Jim. I think if you can picture the green barrel tile out. and it replaced by the background that you see. with the gray block. that's what you'd have. MR. MARTIN-I really like that. MR. BREWER-I don't know why they do that. in front like that, with the. like the Shop N' Save. They've a slope like this. so that any snow that sticks potentially going to come down somebody's head. Why of the store got that. at on there is is that? MR. MORGAN-I don't know. I think that it's a stupid incline in my opinion. but what they do is they put breakers about the size of your fist to try and break up ice and snow coming down. I think it was the fact that they wanted to get a parapet up there. and they didn't have enough room, and in my opinion, Building Inspection Department here should never have let that. because that's an unsafe (TAPE TURNED) MR. RUEL-.. .buildings very similar. MR. MORGAN-They're extremely similar. and the reason being. we talked about this. just last night I was at a meeting very similar to this. When you go to a McDonalds and you're traveling. the appeal of going to McDonalds may not necessarily be the food. You know what you're going to get. You know where it is. You know how the store is laid out. K-Mart. on a much bigger scale. is the same philosophy. When you go to a K-Mart. you have an idea of where everything is. You know what's there. They like to keep an image. They like to keep it the same allover. As does Wal-Hart. Wal- Mart's are very similar allover the Country. It's a philosophy that they like to maintain. MR. MACEWAN-When you come back in front of us for your next meeting wi th us. do you suppose you could bring along a rendering. or photograph of a typical K-Mart? MR. MORGAN-I could try. but the problem is. there isn't really. right now. a typical Super K-Mart. This is only going to be the sixth one in the United States. MR. MARTIN-Well, then that leads to the question then. if they have a typical design that they're steadfastly adhering to. but they don't have any typical one for a K-Mart. maybe you should. MR. MORGAN-Well. the one that I have. that I brought in during the joint workshop, I don't know if you remember. it was a big photograph. but the problem there was that was the first one. and again. that was done in a split face block. for an extreme 1 y typical suburb. architecturally speaking. MR. BREWER-So, if we could give you some kind of an idea of what we want. then. MR. MORGAN-That would be a little closer to what you're going to see. right there. MR. BREWER-See. again. they've got that. MR. MORGAN-They may leave the green barrel tile in. Again. that's an architectural decision for K-Mart. and we have no influence on dictating to them. MR. MARTIN-Well. the reason why I raised this. just for the benefit of the Board. is that there really is no architectural theme in this part of Town. but this is going to be a very big. MR. MACEWAN-We have a bad history behind us. Tim. - 35 - ,,-'" - -...-" MR. MARTIN-I'm just saying that this is likely going to set the tone for this area. given the fact that we have a lot of vacant property here. and now's the time to. MR. MACEWAN-That's the position this Board is talking about taking. is that we'd like to see a little bit things architecturally more pleasing than we've had in the last couple of. MR. MARTIN-The example I cite in this immediate area is I don't know if you're aware of the Northway Plaza? That went through a major revitalization. like in the mid-eighties. and I know. personally, the guy who did that. and he want around as far as. he had the color of the roof. that dark green. was arrived at after an analysis of all the background trees. and the color they attained throughout the seasons. and they mixed that paint specially. taking that into account. and the clock tower and all of that was done to reach a theme that seemed appropriate for the area. and they really did a lot of research on that to come up with what they did, and I think it looks kind of nice. HR. MORGAN-I don't think you'll be disappointed on what they propose. I think if you look at that picture. and in your own mind you image that block as grey. that's what you're going to be seeing. MR. MARTIN-I guess what I'm trying to say is, when you go back to this committee. and I don't know what extent your voice has any weight. or what have you. but. and try and explain to them. this is not just. you're the next retailer on the block type situation. You're a store set apart. literally miles from the next major center. and you're going to be setting the theme. You're not going to be following. MR. MORGAN-I can appreciate your concern for the aesthetics. but on the flip side of that. to use that same argument. that you are miles away, and you're on the other end of Town. I think you have to look at the fact. K-Mart is not going to do something that's unappealing. because no one's going to come and shop there. Number One. Number Two is they have a set criteria as to how to build their stores. Okay. These Super K's are not ugly stores. Now. I can come back from that meeting with an indication as to what they're going to build. type of block. how it's going to look. and the colors. and I could present that to the Board. It may be a material board. as opposed to photographs. I'm sure when your residential builders come in to you. they've got a material board. as to what they're going to do. That we could probably give you. MR. MACEWAN-I guess what Jim is trying to. to get to the point, the other side of the spectrum. is our little shopping center up there. where Blockbuster is. There's a national chain that builds to their criteria of what they want. Unfortunately. it looks like a. you know what. MR. MARTIN-And apparently. the justification given after the fact, when there was an uproar in the community about the appearance of that, is well, Blockbuster. you have to understand. started in Florida. and this is typical of a southeastern design. and all that. and that didn't cut much mustard up here with the people. MR. MACEWAN-And Trustco just painted their bank. MR. BREWER-Yes. MRS. TARANA-I think, though. that something else in regard to that. that came to the County Planning Board when I was on it. and they brought a rendering like this. and it was not blue roofed. It was just a typical looking building. It wasn't until it went up. I don't think Queensbury ever saw. did they see anything? MR. BREWER-No. We never saw anything. - 36 - "-- -, ..-.... --- '-----,. MRS. TARANA-We saw the plans. at the County level. and there was nothing wrong with that building. when we looked at it. So when it was built here. it was a shock to people that it was blue. The other point. maybe, that you could stress with him is not only are you going to be setting a trend in Queensbury. Warren County. if you want to build it uP. maybe you could also be setting a trend for your Super K-Mart. that since there are so few of them. this may be able to be your model. because you're really, you're getting a lot of nice green space and stuff on your property. and I think you can... MR. MARTIN-I hear things like expenditures on this wetland. with this particular site. and things like that. of $100.000 and you're going to a great extent to preserve some aspects of this site. and make it, the landscaping is very nice. It would just seem to me to be in keeping with that. from an architectural standpoint. MR. MORGAN-Unfortunately. they're not as flexible as we are. to make a project happen. They have a specific set come down, and again, that's why I try to make a point out of that rendering. I don't want to mislead the Board as to what it's going to look like. but what I can do. on the same token. is come back with some kind of materials board. and then let the Board decide. HR. MARTIN-Okay. MR. RUEL-Make a model. Other companies do it. MR. MORGAN-You've got something better than a model. You've got a picture. MR. RUEL-No. the building. There's pipes terrible. That's no good at all. I can't even see the back of and some of these buildings. the backs look terrible. sticking up. and all sorts of contraptions. It looks MR. MARTIN-You're going to have some sort of finished treatment on what would be the. MR. STARK-North side. MR. CONNORS-North side. Dix Avenue side. MR. MORGAN-Actually it will be gabled. than block walls. the garden shop. It will look a lot nicer MR. RUEL-It's not gabled in the back is it? MR. MORGAN-There is no back. It's on the side. MR. CONNORS-The whole landscaping purpose was to screen the back. MR. RUEL-Some of these buildings are beautiful when you look at them from the front. and the rest of the building looks terrible. MR. HARLICKER-What about putting up some sort of berm along there. to help buffer with some trees and stuff like that? MR. MORGAN-But. you know. that's difficult to put up a berm to shield a commercial building from an industrial. MR. HARLICKER-I' m not saying from AMG. people driving down Dix Avenue. MR. MORGAN-Well. if you stand out there. today I was looking across the street. Scott, on the north side of Dix. If you look what's out there. that's extremely unattractive. I mean. if anyone should build a berm. I think they should build a berm. I'm talking about the MR. HARLICKER-Well. I think what you will see. as a result of this - 37 - ----' ----- project is that whole area is going to transition into a commercial area. MR. MORGAN-Right. Then you wouldn't need to berm commercial to commercial. would you? MR. HARLICKER-No. but I'm saying. you're going to get a lot more traffic coming down Dix Avenue. as a result of this. and if you're looking at the back of a loading area. it's going to detract. when you're driving down from the appearance of everything. I'm not saying you've got to screen it from AMG or from industrial uses. I'm just saying to help kind of enclosing everything in a nice envelope. MR. MACEWAN-How about. .proposal, plant some trees back there. MR. MORGAN-Well. that's what we've got right now. MR. MACEWAN-Along the north/south property line. MR. CONNORS-So it's essentially screening the back of the AMG building. MR. MORGAN-But I'm going to be honest. I think if. well. you said north/south. If that's the purpose. to be honest. as a proposed commercial tenant. I think AMG should screen an industrial use from this use. MR. HARLICKER-I'm not saying they should screen it from each other. I don't care. MR. MARTIN-I think what he's talking about is Scott's concerned about the appearance off of Dix Avenue here. You could have an angled screening like that. Do you see what I'm saying? MR. MORGAN-That's exactly what the Beautification Committee brought up. and this is what we did. and it satisfied them as to screening. If the Planning Board has a requirement. above and beyond that. maybe what we could do is the Board could require ;ointly of this applicant and the people next door to screen portions of that property. I know what Scott's problem is. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. but with AMG. the front of their building. you know. you aren't seeing the back. MR. MARTIN-Well. this whole area is going to look vastly better than it does now. MR. MORGAN-I have no problem with the concept of screening. I guess what I'm struggling with is screening what is going to make the area look much nicer from what. from what's there? I mean. what's there is basically unattractive to start with. MR. MARTIN-Well. I think what they're saying is screening the loading dock area. which is. of the four sides of the building. the most unappealing. MR. MORGAN-But what are you screening it from. Jim. from traffic? MR. MARTIN-Yes. The appearance from the road. MR. MORGAN-Well, if there was. lets say, a residential subdivision, where AMG's proposing to build. then I could understand what you're saying. or conversely. if on the north side of Dix. there was either a nice office complex or again homes. then I could understand that. but what we're talking about is screening it from moving traffic. MR. MARTIN-No. no. I'm not so concerned about somebody looking through the window of AMG and seeing the back of your. but I think - 38 - ...... -" ---' '-- there is an argument to be made for preserving the appearance of streetscapes up and down the Town. MR. MORGAN-Well. I guess that's wi thin the discretion of the Planning Board. It's up to the Planning Board then to decide if we have proposed adequate screening on the south side of Dix Avenue. MR. MARTIN-Yes. I'm not saying to run it the whole length of your property line between you and AMG. I mean. that's. like you say. it's an industrial park. HR. CONNORS-How about if we remove some of the trees that are really. in here. screening it from a nice facade. and move those to the back? MR. MORGAN-A gabled facade. and put them in the back. MR. BREWER-If you took every other one out and moved them over there. MR. MORGAN-I have no problem with that. My only concern there is I don't want the Beautification Committee to see this and say. you changed the plan. MR. MARTIN-No. it won't kick you back there. MR. HARLICKER-Are there going to be parking spaces facing the street. or is that just going to be a drive through area? MR. MORGAN-No. There will be some spaces there. MR. HARLICKER-You're screening the parking part of it. MR. MORGAN-You're screening the parking. I have no problem taking the existing proposed trees. some of them. and planting them a little them a Ii ttle further left. and then in a north/south direction. MR. CONNORS-They will be evenly spaced. MR. MORGAN-Do you want nine different angles on an elevation? I'm not sure what you want. MR. RUEL-No. just two. You're going to have a front elevation. or rendering. MR. MORGAN-When we do our architectural drawings. we'll do an elevation. MR. RUEL-Okay. the building? Can you do a rendering from the road. looking at MR. MORGAN-We can send an artist out there and have them do it. but they're not going to know any better than looking at that plan. You're asking me to give you a rendering. MR. RUEL-Send an artist where? anywhere. You don't have to send him MR. MORGAN-Well. you're aSking me to give you a rendering of the proposed angle of a proposed building. MR. RUEL-Yes. You can do it from the plans. MR. MORGAN-Right. but it's going to look very similar to that. except that it will be three dimensional. MR. RUEL-Right. I want a rendering so that. as though I was standing on the road looking at the building. - 39 - '-' " ---- --". ',,-, MR. MORGAN-Which road? MR. RUEL-The one they're talking about. MR. CONNORS-We're just really concerned. We're going out of our way here to provide a landscaping plan which far exceeds any other plan any other plan that you receive before your Board. Here's Wal-Mart. not to bring them up again. but I mean. are you requiring them? MR. HARLICKER-This is getting blown all out of proportion. here. All I asked is for a little berm or some additional landscaping on that little corner. and now we're asking the world. MR. MORGAN-It that's acceptable to the Board. we'll be happy to do it. MR. MARTIN-I just wanted. I heard you were going out to your architectural review committee. and now is the time to. MR. MORGAN-Will the Beautification Committee. they won't have a problem with us changing the plan? MR. MARTIN-No. because they're not. they're an advisory board. This Board ultimately makes the decision. MR. RUEL-What's this architectural review? MR. BREWER-That's their company that does that. MR. HARLICKER-It's an internal. MR. RUEL-Yours? MR. MORGAN-No. MR. HARLICKER-K-Mart. right? MR. MORGAN-Now that's being blown out of proportion. What it is. it's a meeting to go up to K-Mart. to sit down. and show them the progress on this project. At this meeting. we will discuss construction. okay. One of the aspects of construction that we will talk about is architectural. MR. RUEL-Okay. Where's our architectural review board. right here? MR. BREWER-We don't really have an architectural review. MR. MARTIN-And you don't have any architectural review regulations of how. within site plan review. you have the capacity to look at renderings and. MR. HARLICKER-Compatibility. MR. RUEL-We never seem to get enough information to make a good determination. architecturally. from a design standpoint. The plans I've seen, over a period of..are inadequate. MR. MARTIN-In most cases. this was true when I was on the Board. there really is no architectural theme. especially in the commercial districts of Queensbury. That's unfortunate. but it's the case. MR. RUEL-Yes. but I saw, AMG plans for instance. That. to me. is a good set of plans. You can look at them. You can unde rstand them, and you can visualize what the building would look like at practically any angle. This is what I'm asking from the company. K-Hart or Wal-Mart. and we all seem to forget that. How can we make a decent determination of the building the color the archi tecture. the design. everything. unless we have the - 40 - --- ''--- '- -"-.-"'" '- information. and we don't have it. Occasionally we do. but most of the time we don't. and it's our responsibility. and Blockbuster's an example. You looked at it. and you had inadequate information. MR. BREWER-We don't have any authority to tell them that they have to build it on a black. or yellow. or white. or blue. MR. RUEL-Well. you don't have to tell them. but you can discuss it. You can make recommendations. I mean. most companies would like to abide by the requirements of the community. So, you have to be sensible about it. MR. BREWER-I understand that. and I think that's what happened with Blockbuster. is they brought a picture and said. here's what we're going to do p.eople. and then they got their approval and they came and built this other thing. and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. I won't say~. I wasn't on the Board at the time. MR. MARTIN-I think a lot of your concerns will be addressed by this material board. MR. MORGAN-Yes. and not only that. the plans that have been submitted are permanent in nature. and by no way are the complete package you're going to get for your site plan review. MR. RUEL-I wasn't talking K-Mart. I was speaking about something else in general. MR. MACEWAN-For Roger's interest. didn't you ever show us. in your original presentation. a mock up showing what the front of the building was going to look like? MR. MORGAN-We took it from that. and we also. I believe. had the slides. MR. MARTIN-You had architectural elevations. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. so that you could see everything. how high it was. HR. MARTIN-Yes. That was it. right there. MR. MACEWAN-That's what we looked at. There's your answer. Roger. right there. MR. RUEL-No. That's not it. For a couple of thousand dollars. you could have a beautiful model. and everybody can look at it. and you know what it looks like. I don't know why everybody's against that. Architects do it all the time, even the private homes. MR. MORGAN-But you had asked. lets say. if you were standing on Dix Road, okay. You had asked what would the side of the building look like. and there it is. right there. MR. RUEL-No. no. you can't. because the landscaping isn't there. to begin with. I'm just looking at the building. That doesn't mean anything. MR. MORGAN-Sometimes K-Mart. depending on the site. they have what they term a right hand store and left hand store. The left or right hand store is determined by where The Garden Shop and the TBA is. So. in this instance. if we go back to that first plan. Jim. for a second. the plan behind that. if you look at the north side of the store. you can see that's The Garden Shop that's delineated. and right behind that is the TBA. That, if you're standing in front of the store. would be considered a right hand store. Some places. they might make that a left hand store. depending on the site. MR. MACEWAN-Wait a minute. Put this elevation back up here. Does that typify the K-Mart? - 41 - ~,,/....-- -- .--..-/ -- MR. MORGAN-Yes. If you look at that top elevation. you'll notice two major entrances. and look at the picture right across from Roger. you'll notice the two major entrances. One is for the grocery store. One is for the discount. and so you can see the conformity between that elevation and reality. MR. MARTIN-And in the case of this si te. which side. will the grocery be on the north side? MR. MORGAN-The grocery would be on the left hand. so if you're standing in the front of this. lets say you're in the parking lot here. at the Queensbury store. The entrance. on the left hand side. would be the grocery. opposite The Garden Shop. MR. BREWER-Where's the lube shop? MR. MORGAN-It's behind The Garden Shop. MRS. TARANA-And how do they enter that lube shop? MR. CONNORS-There's bay doors here. MRS. TARANA-So the back side. MR. MORGAN-It's shown. see on the elevation. Corinne? Again, it's a little bit different because. MR. CONNORS-Over here. they have the TBA here. MR. MARTIN-Where in this case. it'll be down there. just to the left of The Garden Center. right? MR. MORGAN-The Garden Center. MR. HARLICKER-And what about garbage disposal? MR. CONNORS-Compactors in the back. Recyclers are all out here. MR. BREWER-Built right into the building? MR. MORGAN-Built right into the wall. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. MARTIN-So. from this standpoint. it works out nice that that side of the building abuts the industrial park. in this particular case. MR. MORGAN-See, now. again. if that was a residential subdivision. we'd be in trouble. from the screening or berming standpoint. with compactors. MR. RUEL-When a company has a standard. as far as architecture's concerned. it's very difficult for the community to change it. MR. MO~GAN-I would say. Jim brought up the point before. There are communities in this Country that have very strict architectural standards. MR. RUEL-In one community. McDonalds has no arch. MR. MORGAN-I've seen places where McDonalds doesn't have a sign at all. and I've seen places where a community requires split faced blocking. everything they build. So you'll actually drive through a town and maybe you've seen them occasionally. They're some of the prettiest town's you've seen. because they keep strict architectural harmony. MR. MARTIN-But the thing about that is developers don't mind. because they know the rules of the game going in. - 42 - ~--"" MR. MORGAN-Exactly. I came in to Jim last January. and I got a copy of your subdivision and your site plan review. If he also handed me something that dealt with the architectural code. I'd know sitting here tonight. exactly what was acceptable. MR. RUEL-It would be difficult to start something like that in Queensbury. Queensbury's an architectural disaster. MR. MORGAN-Some towns. part of the reason is you find it really in the newer towns that have that up front. that lets say they didn't start to grow until the 60's or 70's. and then they're able to codify that and put it into writing. and then that forces people to comply. MR. MARTIN-See. we didn't really start a big boom here until, at least the perception is. until the 80's. MR. CONNORS-This would be the time to start implementing something like that. if you're trying to protect the future. MR. BREWER-Now we've got so much hodge podge in the whole Town. MR. MORGAN-Lets say a use came back to you. they wanted a higher pylon sign. You could come back to them and say. we may grant it to you. but only under these architectural provisions. It would take many. many years to change a Town like this. but there are places that people have started. MR. BREWER-Is there any idea on what that wetland area might look like? MR. MORGAN-I can give you an idea. will. Number One. be buffered. There will be an area that MR. BREWER-You don't want people to see it. then? MR. MORGAN-Well. we don't want people screwing around in there. because it I s going to be wet. We don't want people tramping through there. It's a functional. living thing. MR. MARTIN-When you say buffered heavily. what do you mean by buffered heavily? HR. MORGAN-I mean. when you picture trees. you picture something at Shop N' Save. that are tall. scraggly. thin. You can walk right in between them. We're going to put in plantings that are going to grow out. as well as up. MR. RUEL-Aren't you going to have a fence around it? MR. MORGAN-We are going to have a fence. too. MR. BREWER-It would seem to me that it would be more appealing if. and this is just my opinion. on Dix Avenue. where you've got the trees, do you see where you've got the gap. where you're entrance is going in? Where you've got the trees here. if this is going to be your wetlands, where you've got the trees here. just transfer these over to here. MR. MORGAN-No. We're going to buffer that separately from what you see on there. MR. BREWER-So that when you're driving down Quaker Road. you could look in there and see the wetlands. Just for eye appealing. I don't know if. MR. CONNORS-The Corp is going to tell us. MR. MORGAN-The Corp well tell us how we have to buffer it. - 43 - -- MR. CONNORS-We're not going to be able to open this UP. if they're telling us we have to buffer it. MR. MORGAN-We could show it to you. but I've got to be honest with you, Corp and Fish and Wildlife. they tell us. we don't tell them. MR. BREWER-So why are you showing the trees on the drawing? MR. MORGAN-Because that's part of your screening process for the Town of Queensbury. Your Beautification Committee required us to screen that. That's why we're showing that. MR. BREWER-Why would they want to do that? I'd rather drive by an acre of pond and look and see a pond. MRS. TARANA-Yes. but. Tim. when we find out what the Corp wants. if we don't want those trees. we can have them take the trees out. MR. MACEWAN-I don't think it's really going to be a pond. per se. It'll be a wet. MR. MORGAN-It's going to be all landscaped. MR. MARTIN-I think it'll be a true amenity to the site. I really do. MR. RUEL-Are you saying it will be a swamp. rather than a pond? MR. MORGAN-No. I'm saying it'll be the opposite. It's only going to be maybe six or eight inches deep. MR. MARTIN-I just think it'll be an amenity to the site. We saw it today. at the end of Quaker Boulevard there. If you go to the end of Quaker Boulevard there. American Equities site. Go to the end. to the west side of the road. there's standing water there. three inches deep. There's cattails growing in there. At the northern end of the road, west side. where the road. the pavement stops. by that cornfield. to the left there. you walk in about ten feet and there's standing water there about six or eight inches deep. just like he said. MR. BREWER-Now that's the area where they say there's not wetlands? MR. MACEWAN-No. the other side. MR. BREWER-Anything else? MR. STARK-We're belaboring this point now. They answered all their questions. MR. BREWER-Anything else you want to bring up? MR. MORGAN-Tim. is there anything that we can do in the interim. between now and the next time that we come before the Board? I mean. I appreciate the chance to address these comments. but what I would like to have done was to find out if there's anything that the Board sees. without being here at a formal meeting. that they don't want. they want changed. they want modified. so that we could take this time. and come back to you with something that you're going to want? Because at the meeting of the 20th. you're going to make A through Z changes. Instead of waiting until the August meeting to re-present those to you. is there anything that you can direct us that needs to be done. so we can take the next two and a half weeks. HR. BREWER-I just was curious as to the lighting. how much lighting is going to be in that parking lot all night long? MR. CONNORS-Within the package that we submitted to you is the full site lighting plan. one and a half. .candles within the paved areas. - 44 - -- MR. BREWER-But that doesn't mean that we need one and a half candles. I mean, is it going to be as bright at this room? MR. CONNORS-Nowhere close. MR. MORGAN-If you go up to Northway Plaza. or Shop N' Save at nine o'clock at night. it's pretty much an industry standard. MR. CONNORS-Don't compare Grand Union. Grand Union has no lights. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anything else? MR. MARTIN-I think it's pretty clear. I'm just waiting for the traffic. I think the landscaping on that site. MR. BREWER-It's fine like it is. MR. MARTIN-I'll tell you. Jim. what I would like to see. as you can detail. on separate drawings. is the traffic. any transportation improvements. physical improvements you can separate detail of the. I just want to make sure of that. have anything. even on a preliminary basis. some idea. much as sort of supply. If you MR. CONNORS-Right. MR. MARTIN-I know there's different stages to that review by the State. formally. but if we could see it on preliminary drawings. MR. HARLICKER-What sort of maintenance program do they have for landscaping? Do they have a set schedule? MR. MORGAN-They have a set schedule. firm. They will award to a local MR. HARLICKER-Will they plant. like. annual flowers. seasonal flowers. that sort of thing? MR. MORGAN-Well. I don't know if I could speak in that much detail. as to annuals or things like that. They have a landscape contract. MR. MARTIN-Just so we're consistent here. Tim. like was said at the last meeting. I want to make sure the design engineer. the ball is not dropped. from the point of what you've shown here and what the contract for an installation is aware of. I want to make sure that this exact same landscaping plan with the great attention to detail that's been paid by your firm. in terms of the species of plant. the number. and all that. the size. MR. MORGAN-Jim, I think that will be done. but if you find that it's not. at any point. I welcome you to call me. and we'll get it worked out. We'll hold that. .over our head between now and the day this store gets opened. So you do have a built in protection. but aside from the CO. if you find something's not being done the way I told you. call me. and I'll get it straightened out. MR. MARTIN-Okay. because. like I've seen it already. like the Wal- Mart plan came in. very detailed things on electrical and all this other stuff. and not a page of it's got anything about plantings. MR. MORGAN-All I would say is that I realize that there have been different people through. give us a chance to show you what we'll do. and if you find that it's not consistent with what we had talked about. you and I will straighten it out. MR. MARTIN-Okay. All right. MR. MORGAN-To the satisfaction of the Board. MR. BREWER-Anything else from anybody? All right. - 45 - --' MR. CONNORS-Jim, can we expect a letter regarding any concerns that the Town consultants may have. regarding the layout? MR. MORGAN-Again. our concern to have the special meeting was that we could take the time between now and your regular meeting to not. lets say. waste the time. If there are things that this Board wants done or changed. that we could take this time to do it. and come back on July 20th with something other than the traffic study. MR. CONNORS-And other than moving those three trees. MR. MORGAN-I guess. I don't want to beat a dead horse. If that's all, I'll get up. and I'll walk out. I just want to be sure that if the Board wants something else. that. MR. MACEWAN-The things we were looking for was the traffic report. the engineering report from Rist-Frost. and the input from the Army Corp. MR. STARK-Yarmowich will have all his comments? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. MORGAN-And the Corp will not be done by July 20th. but I don't think we'll have site plan approval before the Corp's done anyway. but Number Two. an option open for the Board. and I'm sure the Board knows this. they can grant conditional approval. MR. MACEWAN-No, we can't. MR. MORGAN-Well. that's up to the Board. MR. MACEWAN-No. We can't. questions or problems. We won't. I don't have anymore MR. BREWER-How come this is blocked. in this area here? MR. CONNORS-Just the orientation of the traffic. road drive. MR. MORGAN-Internal situations. MR. CONNORS-Instead of having a large paved area. we're trying to align these entranceways. MR. MORGAN-Tim. if that block wasn't there. and you were parked in there facing north, and you backed out. look at either someone else backing out from the south. or someone coming up that drive heading east. You'd have a real problem right there. but if we block it off. that really decreases the chance of accidents. MRS. TARANA-I like the idea. it's something I've brought up before. that the building is not sitting smack on the road. or the parking lot is not smack on the road, and the building's way in the back of the parking lot. MR. RUEL-That's what you want it. MRS. TARANA-That's what I said. be done. Stores don't do that. I mean. everybody says. it can't Well. there it is. MR. BREWER-You know what would be really nice. if there was some kind of area for the employees to go out and have their lunch or something. Is it possible? Some companies make that. MR. MORGAN-I know they have a Little Caesar's Pizza. They have a deli. opposite the Supermarket. and they have some type of a new restaurant. it's some kind of an international cafe that they're just starting to put in the Super K's. MR. BREWER-See. I'm thinking of a typical Zayre's. or something - 46 - -' like that. MR. MORGAN-No. I think that you'll be surprised. MR. BREWER-I've never even been in a K-Mart. MR. MORGAN-There's one down in Clifton Park. MRS. TARANA-There's one in Saratoga. MR. STARK-We're belaboring things. now. MR. MORGAN-Tim. if there's not anymore business. we won't keep you any longer. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you very much for coming. MR. MACEWAN-What's next on the agenda here? MRS. TARANA-I want to know what the Town Board's comments are about. MR. BREWER-Okay. Was that the only thing? MR. MACEWAN-No. MR. BREWER-What was the other thing? MR. HARLICKER-You brought up the letter from Paul. MR. MACEWAN-I want to know the thing that's going on with these guys. I want to know what's going on. in more detail. about the thing the girl from the Army Corp of Engineers told us today. She wants to know what's going on with the comments about site visits, from the Town Board. MR. HARLICKER-Well. what about the Army Corp stuff. I can fill you in on that. MR. MACEWAN-Basically, what's going to happen? What's the next step? What's going to happen now? MR. HARLICKER-Tomorrow morning. I'm going to call Schachner and Dave Fedak and tell them they're going to have to delineate the wetlands so Army Corp of Engineers can come back out and check over their delineations. like they did with Zaremba. MR. MACEWAN-Let me ask you this. can you guys supply us. from either the Army Corp of Engineers or something you guys have in the file. a set of criteria that they look for? MR. HARLICKER-We can give you exactly what they give us today. MR. MACEWAN-I'd love a copy of that. MRS. TARANA-Even if you knew the neighborhood. would you be able to look. MR. MACEWAN-No. no. I want to know what the criteria is that they use. MR. HARLICKER-I don't know if it's. I'll have to check. MR. MACEWAN-Now. wait a minute. I guess what I'm saying. if I didn't know better, I would have been hood winked by them. just to take the applicant's word that they aren't wetlands. and it would have been a dead issue. and it would have gotten. MR. BREWER-What you're saying is all along Quaker Road. where all the cattails grow. it's all wetlands. - 47 - '-- MR. MACEWAN-In certain parts there are. yes. I mean. there may be wetlands from the edge of the road. only back three feet. MR. BREWER-We need wetlands. We have to have wetlands. MR. RUEL-My whole life was spent burying the wetlands. I need an explanation of why they're so important. really. To me. they're just a swamp. MRS. TARANA-No. That's one way of purifying your water. As it drains down through wetlands. that's a way of purifying your water system. MR. MACEWAN-And it's very vital to the ecology. and the ecological cycle. MR. RUEL-It's like people that get excited about the rainforests. We cut down a hell of a lot more in this Country than they will ever do. MR. BREWER-No. They cut down thousands of acres a day. MR. RUEL-How much did we cut down since we're here? MR. MACEWAN-But do we have forest management in this Country? Not the best in the world. but it's a heck of a lot better than what they have there. MR. BREWER-They're cutting it down and it's gone. It's never going to come back. MR. RUEL-No. I know. and the worst thing about it is it's not working out for the cattle either. MR. HARLICKER-Once they cut it. nothing grows back. because the soil's so thin. It's very shallow. and once you cut down the trees. those trees supply so much material for. as it turns into mulch and...it's gone. MR. BREWER-Now. you're going to have to have those people across the street delineate the wetlands. MR. HARLICKER-What they do is they hire somebody to come in and delineate it. The Army Corp is then contacted and Heidi comes out. or somebody else comes out. I suspect it's probably going to be her. and they go out there with the map that the delineation is shown on. and she walks it. and the Army Corp gives their okay. as far as the delineation. and depending on the size of the wetlands. or what they're going to do. MR. RUEL-Whatever she says. that's it? The guy's following with a pencil and he's marking it down? MR. HARLICKER-Yes. They walk around it. They put little flags on the trees. and that's how they delineate it. MRS. TARANA-And this guy knew. he's done it before. He's identified wetlands. He knows the approximate size of it. which is the same thing she did. I'm sure. MR. BREWER-What about us four here. We're the only four here. so we have to know. What aboùt the 10 year traffic study? I don't understand that. MR. HARLICKER-See. my understanding of that. the County requires it. and the State doesn't. The County's not involved with the Wal- Mart light. They are involved with the Zaremba site. because they are on a County road. MR. BREWER-Is Quaker Road a County road? - 48 - -- MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. BREWER-And what it Route 9? That's a State road? MR. HARLICKER-That's a State road. MR. MACEWAN-But the whole thing is the County. according to her. requested that Study. Why didn't the County ask for a 10 year one like they did for? MR. BREWER-No. I think she's saying the County Planning Board. not the Warren County. MR. MACEWAN-No. because that's why I went back to her. I wanted to know. specifically. from her who asked for that Study. MR. HARLICKER-In that overall Corridor Study that they did. they might have done 10 year projections. MR. BREWER-Why shouldn't Wal-Mart have to do that? MR. MACEWAN-Because they're just trying to get through the process as quick as possible. MR. BREWER-Jim. do you think it would be a good idea or not? MR. MARTIN-I have to. in all honesty. say that I think it's a good idea. I've just got to say. though. that credibility and consistency of review is all important. MR. BREWER-Isn't consistency asking them to do the same thing at K- Mart as at Wal-Mart? MR. MARTIN-Right. and at the same time. I'm not saying you should ignore it and just go by it. MR. MACEWAN-In all fairness to this Board. I'm starting to. I've been doing a little bit of nosing around myself. and I'm finding conflicting stories from what Transportation Concepts is telling people. On one side. they're telling their person they're representing as an applicant to this Board. that. well. there's no problem down the road. There might be a slight. but it can be mitigated. but yet they turn around and make a presentation to the County and say that there's a major problem at this same intersection. I mean. if there's any kind of problem here. it's coming from that Traffic Engineer who's not giving a straight forward report. I think we have a right to know that. How are you going to make a decision on something that's going to last and effect this area for the next 30 or 40 years? MR. MARTIN-I understand that. but it's my understanding also that DOT is not supposed to permit a signal or curb cuts or anything like that if there's a drop in the level of service. MR. MACEWAN-What's that got to do with the 10 year study? MR. MARTIN-Well. I'm saying. no. I'm not talking about the 10 year study. I'm talking about just the immediate impact of Wal-Mart on the intersection today. They cannot have the impact where it drops in the Level of Service. If they do that. then they have to propose mitigation to the point where they don't drop the Level of Service. So at least in that current regard. they've done that. Now what you're saying about the 10 year study. the reason why I feel that DOT has taken that out of their report requirements. which it used to be there. I think even just a couple of years ago it used to be there. The local NPO's. the Transportation Council. is now required to submit a 20 year plan for transportation. MR. MACEWAN-But that 10 year long range study wasn't requested by the State DOT. It was requested by the County. - 49 - - MR. MARTIN-Right. because that may be a County requirement. but it is not a DOT Planning Study requirement. MR. MACEWAN-But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about. if that study was supposedly done by Transportation Concepts to the County, why wasn't a 10 year projection done there? MR. MARTIN-It was. MR. MACEWAN-Where is it? MR. MARTIN-It's in their Corridor Study for 254. MR. MACEWAN-How come we don't have it? MR. MARTIN-They have a two percent per year growth rate. MR. MACEWAN-How come we don't have a copy of it? MR. MARTIN-We have it here in the Planning Office. MR. MACEWAN-I requested that two weeks ago. last meeting we had with these folks. MR. MARTIN-We have a copy of the 254 study. and they didn't do Route 9 in front of Wal-Mart specifically. but they did it where it crosses Route 9. MR. MACEWAN-Well. I guess what I'm having a problem understanding here is that. on one hand Transportation Concepts is saying that there's a very small problem with the Route 9/254 intersection. but in a study. that I have yet to see. that they've given to the County. they tell the County there's a major problem with that intersection. Already. it's a failed intersection. right now. as we speak. MR. MARTIN-I don't know that they've claimed it as a failed intersection. MR. MACEWAN-That's what I want to know. know. I'm hearing that. That's what I want to MR. MARTIN-I can go get it right out of the drawer right now. MR. RUEL-How can they make a 10 year study? MR. HARLICKER-They just base it on a certain percentage increase. like two and a half. MR. RUEL-How can they do that. and anticipate growth on the basis of the zoning. or what? MRS. TARANA-Do they take into account. like. Passarelli's coming along. The new hardware store is coming along? Like. Wal-Mart only has done it through the end of '93. Passarelli probably won't be there. The hardware store won't be there. Knowing that there are these other things that are going to be in. MR. BREWER-There's no proposal for a hardware store. is there? MRS. TARANA-Well. some kind of store. hardware store. or whatever it is. I don't care if it's a MR. BREWER-Where? MR. RUEL-True Value? MRS. TARANA-No. by the Ponderosa. MR. HARLICKER-The Ponderosa. That guy is going to put in - 50 - - something. He's talking about putting in a hardware store. HRS. TARANA-There may be. There may be not. but lets assume there is. It's commercial property. MR. MACEWAN-Did the Chairman know this? MR. BREWER-Nobody tells me anything. MR. MARTIN-See. this is the Route 254 Corridor Study. MR. MACEWAN-Who do they prepare that report for? MR. MARTIN-They did this for the Glens Falls Transportation Commi ttee. which is the local municipal planning organization. That is the organization that is like the conduit between the local municipalities and the State DOT. MR. MACEWAN-Is it made up of local people? municipalities? I mean. local MR. MARTIN-Yes. It's made up, they have. the Council itself is made up of local elected officials. Mike Brandt. Mayor O'Keefe. Mayor Finney from South Glens Falls. Mike Sullivan. I think. is on it. from Moreau. people from the County. the County Supervisors. Those are the elected officials on the Council. okay. MR. RUEL-In other words. it's not Queensbury oriented? MR. MARTIN-Queensbury is part of it. because the NPO. in this particular case. the Glens Falls Transportation area is made up of Warren and Washington County, and northern Saratoga County. okay. That's why all those elected officials are. they sit on the Council. Now. the Council has. as advisors to them. the Technical Committee. MR. RUEL-From the various communities? MR. MARTIN-Exactly. Then the Technical Committee from those same communities. like, Fred Austin is the Chairman of the Technical Committee. I sit on the Technical Committee. Paul Naylor does. Ken Wheeler from the Washington County. A planner from Saratoga County. represents Saratoga County. Joe Sullivan. the City Engineer from the City. and those are the technical people. and that's where a lot of the hands on review of something like that is done. and then we make recommendations on to the Council. the elected officials. as to the completeness of the study, or things we think should be put in. that type of thing. DOT also comments. DOT has not accepted these yet. Joanna Brunso. in all honesty. is not thrilled with the quality or the depth of information in these reports. and that's what's trying to be hashed out now. Like. for example. the connector road. I have the other study in there for the Million Dollar Half Mile. and it shows as a mitigation measure a bypass road coming from the Exit 20 interchange for the northbound lane. down by the Montcalm South. a new road going in back of the stores. connecting over to 149. However. that never took into account topography. It never took into account ownership patterns. So. in other words, were the owners in that area going to be accepting of this. It happens to cross through the edge of the Courthouse Estates subdivision. McCormack went ballistic. He said. you do this. I'll fight you to every court in the land. MR. RUEL-He's right. MR. MARTIN-So. that type of thing is a serious flaw. in my mind. and I told them in this Route 9/254 study we're doing. MR. MACEWAN-Who's concept was that to come up with that? Transportation Concepts' idea to come up with that? - 51 - --- MR. MARTIN-I don't know that it was there's. like that's where it came from. I've heard talk of that from the merchants in that area. MR. BREWER-Can we back up a second? Who's paying for this study? MR. MARTIN-Ultimately. the State and the Federal Government is. MR. BREWER-Who's putting the money up front? MR. MARTIN-The County. and then they're reimbursed from. if money's available through the ISTEA program. (TAPE TURNED) MRS. TARANA-Is the ISTEA money a sure thing. or do they anticipate? MR. MARTIN-Yes. The planning money is in place. Every NPO has their allotment of planning money. and that's where these reports are being paid from. HRS. TARANA-But I thought they were being hired by the Town? MR. MARTIN-What happened was. this is what happened. We had the idea for this Route 9/254 study. okay. I wanted to go out to RFP a series of large engineering firms who have a real rapport with DOT. like a Seer Brown. or a C.T. Male. or a Clough Harbor. one of those. I wanted to get 15 RFP's out there. proposals. We made the presentation to the Transportation Council. and the Tec Committee. and Fred Austin said. well. wait a minute here. and time was of the essence. We were concerned about. we want to get this done. Everybody says. nothing is ever done. no traffic improvements are ever made. and time was of the essence. I wanted to get started on this. and Fred Austin said. well. wait a minute. We have an existing contract. because it's quite a lengthy procedure. once you get a proposal back and you want to select a firm. of getting a scope of services accepted by DOT. and a contract written. because the Town. the County. and the State are all involved. and DOT has very strict requirements for what's needed in the scope of services. It has to be strictly transportation oriented in order for it to be fundable through ISTEA. So DOT is the watch dog for that. So. Fred Austin says. well. we have an existing contract right now and we have a consultant on board doing our corridor studies. We can simply put an addendum to that contract. and you can start work immediately. That sounded good to the Council. Transportation Concepts was hired. MR. RUEL-Rush. rush. rush. MR. MARTIN-Well. with the consideration that time was of the essence. I really can't blame them in that regard. In the ideal world. it wasn't my choice, but given. time being the factor that it was. we went along with it. Any report like that is only as good as the scope of services that you write for it. and now we have a much tighter. I've got to give Joanna Brunso credit. too. She wasn't on board when the scope of services for this was written. She is now. she's making sure all the I's are dotted. and all the T's are crossed. and I've already written a letter to them saying. I want consultation with property owners. and topography taken into consideration. MRS. TARANA-Did Transportation Concepts do the Dexter Traffic Study? MR. MARTIN-No. That was. I think, the LA Group. and I think it was Roger Creighton. if I'm not mistaken. but I'm not sure. I know for a fact is wasn't them. MR. RUEL-You're ultimate customer is DOT. right? You have to sell this to DOT? - 52 - -------- MR. MARTIN-Yes. They're paying the bill. ultimately. sign off on the scope of services. They have to. MR. RUEL-Do you know their requirements? MR. MARTIN-I have some understanding of them. I have nothing in writing. but I have some understanding. Those were all internally. MR. BREWER-Okay. So. to get back to the original question. do you think it's a good idea. or not a good idea to have them do the traffic study for 10 year, as Staff. both of you? MR. MARTIN-I said this long ago. and I think you'll see in the minutes long ago. even after I took this job. that recently. that I'd like to see projections at least through a three to five year period. MR. BREWER-So, if we're going to go three to five. why not go one step further and go ten? MR. MARTIN-It came up in the context of the Red Lobster discussion. because it was done. Larry Levine pointed out to me. he said. well. the State doesn't require this anymore. they used to. and they don't. MR. BREWER-Okay. Scott, how do you feel about it? MR. HARLICKER-I'd like to see it. Timing is awkward. I know. it just came to light now. I'm just saying as far as that goes. I think it's going to have the appearance of. why are we throwing. it's just. as road blocks. MR. BREWER-Exactly. and I'll guarantee you that. MRS. TARANA-And I'll tell you. I've got it right on my list. before we even started this conversation. that if. at our next meeting, it came to a vote. that was one of my comments that I was going to make. that I did not approve of this project based on the fact that the study only went through 1993. MR. BREWER-Roger. what do you think? MRS. TARANA-And I think they have to know about those. Scott. because I brought that up? Don't you remember? I brought that up. and I think the other thing is. I went up to Ames four times yesterday. I kept going up. MR. HARLICKER-I've done that a few times. too. MRS. TARANA-Isn't it crazy? I literally could not get out of Weeks Road. I sat there and counted cars. Then I went over to Ames. Walked around and spent some time. like a shopper would do. came out. and literally. well. I have to go back to Weeks Road. I chose to go back to Oswego. I mean. I suppose I could have taken. I just wanted to see how long it took. and I sat there and counted car after car after car. before I could get out. and behind me was a pile of cars on Weeks Road, and it wasn't busy. There was nobody in Ames. MR. BREWER-Well. I guess what my question would be is. if we make him do this. is there going to be a... MR. MARTIN-I think if you can get the cars to stoP. if they do get a problem with stacking at the light. to the point where they're stacking beyond Weeks Road. if you can get the cars to stop at that corner. leave the intersection open. it's certainly going to help the northbound traffic. It'll create gaps in that. MR. RUEL-I don't believe the traffic engineer. stop. because I've seen those signs at other People will not places. and they - 53 - -"'----- completely ignore them. They just. .the intersections. They don't stop. MRS. TARANA-And I've seen them on Route 146. I travel up that way all the time myself going home. I know what she's talking about. I didn't want to argue with her again. The other problems are. say you're trying to come out of Sweet Road. The traffic may stop. The may get a red light going south on Route 9. but people have already come through the intersection going north. or you've got people making left hand turns out of the Ponderosa at this point. You still can't get out of Sweet Road. and that's exactly what happens at Country Club and Glenwood. because now when you get the light. when ACC's classes let out. you've got a steady stream of people taking a right hand turn on red. right on red. MR. MACEWAN-This can be summarized very. very easily. It's within this Board's power to ask for any and all information to make a sound judgement on any project that goes through this Board. That's Number One. We shouldn't have to feel guilty. We shouldn't have to feel awkward. We don't have to feel like we're pressured to ask for something. That's my biggest concern. I think another big concern I've got is there's all too big a precedent in this Town where people come in front of our Board and think. bing. bang. boom. Inside of a month and a half. I'm approved. gone from site plan to building and code. building permit. that fast. You go to any other municipality wi thin a 50 mile radius of the Town of Queensbury. and you're not going to find one of them that puts something through that fast. with a project of this proportion. not one of them. MR. BREWER-What I've come to the conclusion is. if we make them do this. and I don't have any objection to making them do it. what are we going to get out of it? Lets. what are we going to get out of that? That's what I want to know. MR. RUEL-Out of what? MR. BREWER-Out of the traffic study. if we ask them to do it. MR. MACEWAN-It's going to tell us that in order for the next project to come along. MR. BREWER-I'm not saying that it will or it won't. asking. I'm just MRS. TARANA-W1l1 it tell us when we hit Level of Service F on Quaker Road? I mean. will we know that it's going to be 1994. or it's going to be 2002? Are we going to know that? I mean. so there's something that the Planning Board. Planning Department. can then take and work with? MR. MARTIN-Well. that's what I tried to get out of these guys. here. too. and this came up in the context of the discussion we had that day. when both K-Marts were in here. These traffic engineers. it's just like they get caught up in jargon and they just can't see through to the layperson's view on this. or what to me is very rational. He was trying to tell me. well. there's a two percent growth factor that's been planned into that study. You'll see that study. You'll see that's what it is. two percent. and I said. I just want to know. what does that mean in terms of real numbers? Is that 900 cars a year? And there were two of them in here. Larry Levine and Fred Caravan from C.T. Male. and they had not thought of it from that perspective. and then I wanted to know from them, and then they finally discussed it around. you were here. you remember. and they did all these calculations. well. it would probably work out to about 900 cars a year. Now. okay. I said. all right. if that is the case, like 900 cars per hour. or whatever. I said. all right. now. if that is the case. then please tell me what amount of that are you going to take up? Well. they never thought about that ei ther. Well. I said. these are the types of things the Boards - 54 - ---- -' want to know. MR. MACEWAN-Well. you know. it was like the comment tonight. when I asked her about. she said. well. that's a Level D intersection right there. and I said. well. that's close to failing. and she said. well. failing would be that if you have to wait at the light so many seconds before it's fixed. You wait there now for that. If you aren't lucky enough to hit that light and get into a good flow of traffic that's right in the move and tear around that corner. you're going to sit there for at least one more light. MR. RUEL-There is something radically wrong with all traffic reports that we get. They're always in conflict with the people sitting around here. and they have numbers. and they can tell you the experiences they had. and these things are not registered in that traffic report. MR. MACEWAN-I think a lot of times..unless they try to baffle you with the numbers. MR. RUEL-I don't know if the residents are exaggerating. or. MR. MARTIN-There is one principle thing that is important in traffic studies. and I think this is important to bear in mind. and it's borne out in what you saw here with this K-Mart project tonight. The trip generation. that is the key figure. How did they do that. That is the key. because around all that. everything else is set. MR. MACEWAN-And there's a case where that may not necessarily come up to be true. because if you remember the Red Lobster thing. where they talked about the trip generation. they said. this is a high class sit down restaurant that had generated so many cars per hour. Mark Schachner came up and said. well. if you look at the next column,. .and it changes. MR. MARTIN-That was a very important question to ask. MR. HARLICKER-They had to revise their trip generations because of DOT. .to high. MRS. TARANA-I think the bottom line is. traffic studies are one thing. common sense is another. I mean. when you know people are already having trouble coming out. and I don't think Sweet Road's nearly what the problem with Weeks Road is. you know people can't get out. You see them standing there piled up. You see the cars lined up into the carwash out onto Weeks Road. At some point. you've got to say. just common sense tells you. you add one of the largest retailers to that property. MR. HARLICKER-One of their largest stores. MRS. TARANA-Their largest store. and then you add truck traffic to Weeks Road. the numbers don't make any sense. MR. BREWER-Okay. then we can ask them to do it. and Mike O'Connor is going to go berserk. MRS. TARANA-Well. either that. or you make a decision on the project based on the information you've got now. MR. MARTIN-Here it is right here. Summary of Signalized Capacity Analysis. okay. Levels of Service and seconds of delay. and it's pro j ected for ' 92 to '97 to the year 2002. Okay. Intersection Route 9. '92 is a Level of Service D. with a delay of 30.4 seconds. '97 is a Level of Service E 41.5 seconds. and then they've got an asterisk for 2002. MR. HARLICKER-Complete shutdown. MR. MARTIN-The future Level of Service was computed by increasing - 55 - ----.. 1992 volumes by a rate of two and a half percent per year. This growth rate corresponds to that which has generally been observed along the corridor over the past ten years. MR. BREWER-Okay. I don't know. Should we make them aware of this? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. BREWER-I think maybe somebody should call him tomorrow. MR. MARTIN-I'm going to see Dennis O'Malley tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. MR. BREWER-Well. I guess we can vote on it right now. if we want to. that we want him to make that 10 year study. MR. RUEL-We haven't believed any other traffic study. so far. We're going to believe this one? MR. BREWER-No. but what we're saying is. K-Mart is doing it. to give us some kind of an idea what's going to be the outcome of the projected traffic. MR. RUEL-And these people aren't. MR. BREWER-And they're not. Same kind of a project. same kind of a store. bigger retail. MR. MARTIN-Well. I don't know if they're being more up front. but Tim Morgan is the most organized developer I've ever seen. He is something. MR. MACEWAN-He's ready to answer your questions. give you an honest. straight forward answer. He's ready to MR. MARTIN-Do you know how many times he'd been in to see me before he actually got one sheet of paper into this process? He's been in here a half a dozen times. and he has got it down. I mean. he has a dry. drone personality. but he knows. when it comes to this stuff. he does very well. MR. RUEL-He anticipates a lot. too. MR. BREWER-That's the first time I ever heard him argue about anything anybody asked him to do. about those trees. MR. HARLICKER-And it was minor. MR. BREWER-What do we want to do? Corinne. do you want him to do it? MRS. TARANA-I asked that question before. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. MR. RUEL-First of all. are we asking him to do this because the other store is doing it. MRS. TARANA-No. I felt. well. I'm speaking just for myself. no. I want to know what's happening in the future. beyond December 31. 1993. MR. RUEL-Do you think there's any credibility in this study? We haven't believed any studies we've had to date. Why should we believe this one? MRS. TARANA-Well. I think you've got a point. MR. BREWER-So I guess. then. why do we have anybody do a traffic study? - 56 - ---- MR. RUEL-They don't seem to be any good, as far as I'm concerned. They're certainly in conflict with the audience. MR. MACEWAN-I guess my position. I know that that intersection right now is close to failing right now. from what I'm understanding right now. and what traffic concepts are all about. and traffic studies. If that store goes in up there. and generates that much more traffic up there. and 90 percent of that traffic. in my opinion, is going to come right through that intersection. What's it going to do to that intersection. and how can it be corrected? I'm talking Wal-Mart. MR. BREWER-When they do that. Roger. they have to have a summary at the end of this. making alternatives. don't they? Or don't they give a summary. and then some significant mitigating measures? So I think when they do it past '93. then they're going to have to come up with some mitigation. That would be the only benefit that I could see. MR. RUEL-Do you really think they can do something? MR. MACEWAN-Well. yes, I guess maybe the question.. part of the problem here. there's a real outside chance that maybe the store is too big for the site. Maybe it has to be scaled down. MR. RUEL-The way I look at it is. any big store that comes in is going to create a traffic problem. You can't eliminate a traffic problem with a traffic study. I don't care what the hell you do. You can make some improvements. but the traffic's still there. MR. MARTIN-That's why I take the standpoint that this is already reached a point where. even existing today. it needs to be dealt with. MR. BREWER-So who should do it? The Town of Queensbury should do it? MR. MARTIN-No. It's a State route. The State should do it. but we're the motivating force behind that being done. MR. MACEWAN-In the year that I've been on this Board. one of the biggest complaints I've had from any citizen in this Town has been the traffic problem. and one of the repetitive complaints I always hear. gee. before you know it. this whole area is going to be like Wolf Road in Colonie. Central Avenue in Colonie. I've got a news flash for you. we're there now. We're here. This is what we've got. MR. RUEL-But they tend to exaggerate. I drive around this Town all the time. I don't even see a traffic problem. That's because I came from New York City. There's no traffic in this Town. MR. BREWER-What do you mean there's no traffic. Roger? How can you say that there's no traffic? MR. RUEL-I've never been stuck anywhere more than a minute. Never. I've never been stuck on any intersection. MR. BREWER-You can honestly say there's no problem with 9 and 254? MR. RUEL-I never got stuck there more than a minute. MR. TARANA-You' ve never gotten stuck trying to get up onto the Northway from that intersection? MR. RUEL-No. I saw a long line. but if you. MR. MACEWAN-Here's what I want you to do tomorrow. I want you to get in your car and I want you to go down and I want you to pull into the Shop N' Save on Quaker Road. five o'clock. I want you to - 57 - '"-- sit there for five minutes. and then I want you to go home and get on the Northway. I want you to go up Quaker Road and get on the Northway. at five minutes after five. and I want you to tell me how long it takes you to get home. MR. RUEL-Well. Quaker Road. I know. takes a long time. because you've got red lights at every block. MR. MACEWAN-We're talking going through that intersection. MR. RUEL-I guess I travel at the right time. MR. MARTIN-I think the worst traffic problem in this area right now is going up Quaker Road into Aviation and trying to cross the bridge. if you were to live over west of the Northway. MR. MACEWAN-And the guys coming down Aviation on a Saturday afternoon and trying to come north. .Route 9. MR. MARTIN-And this was discussed at the Town Board. they got on a little tangent last night. as we talked about the 149 business. and I told them I think it is time for this Town. and they're going to draft a resolution to the Transportation Council. that we become a very squeaky wheel about this Aviation Road business. It is absolutely crazy that this bridge is off until 1997. It is absolutely crazy. This NPO. this Transportation Council is going to spend an allotment of money in the next coming year. I'm talking about '94. and it's going to be in the millions of dollars. Why that is not being spent on that bridge widening is beyond me. That is clearly the most crucial transportation problem in this NPO. Nothing can even hold a candle to it. MR. MACEWAN-So now. can you imagine a Wal-Mart there. and it's Christmas holiday shopping season. and all those people want to get up there and get on that Northway. Think about it. MR. MARTIN-But there's also the perspective. though. that it's the same old argument. and I know you don't like hearing it. but it's got some credibility. Why should the last person through the door be held accountable for all the sins of the past? MR. MACEWAN-No one's making them pay for all the sins of the past. MR. MARTIN-You are if you say you're saying. we deny your store. Downsize your size. MRS. TARANA-Right now. it's bad. Nobody will deny that right now it's bad. without Wal-Mart. without K-Mart. it's bad. but you're bringing in. not just some little store. You're bringing in the largest retailer in the Country. and you've got to know. if it's bad. it's got to be impacting a bad situation. MR. RUEL-Don't you think the community needs the income? MR. MARTIN-But what I'm telling you. Corinne. is you're going to look at these projections. and you probably are going to see increases to the point where it's a problem. but the solutions to those problems are of a greater nature that should not be the responsibility of one individual project. You're talking about reduction of curb cuts. installation of new roads. because that's the only way. it's a capacity issue. and that's the only way you're going to deal with it effectively. and you can't go around having them install new roads all around that intersection. MR. MACEWAN-And who's responsibility is it to do that? MR. MARTIN-It's the responsibility of that Council right there to respond to that. That is their mandate. MR. BREWER-So on the same hand then. why is K-Mart doing a ten year - 58 - -- study? So you can see that. and this Council can respond to it. MR. BREWER-So why shouldn't these people do it and let the Council respond to that? MR. MARTIN-Well. yes. have them do the 10 year study. but I'm telling you. it's a capacity problem. and the only way around it is bypass roads and things like that. MR. BREWER-I'm not arguing the point with you. I'm just making a point. MR. MACEWAN-There's going to be capacity problems on Quaker Road. too. and the way you mitigate that is you widen that. I mean. we know there's a problem right now on 254 and Route 9. What do we do to alleviate the problem. or take some of the problem out? Because if you allow a store to go up there. of that size. like Corinne says. it's going to add to the problem. MR. MARTIN-That intersection there at Dix and Quaker. there's one approach that is operating at. I think. a failed level already. MR. RUEL-That's an industrial park there. isn't it? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. BREWER-Well. maybe the answer is not making them do the traffic study. Maybe the answer is asking them to scale it down. and if they say no. you say no back. MRS. TARANA-I think that they think all the traffic generated with their store is mitigated by the traffic light. That's the impression I get. Well. what's going to happen to Ray Supply? How are they going to get in and out of Ray Supply? How are they going to get in and out of that. whatever goes in up from the Ponderosa? You've got the same situation you've got with Sweet and Weeks Road, and you're putting in a traffic light. not where it's needed. You're putting in a traffic light just because this is apparently where the State will allow it. and that's totally for the benefit of Wal-Mart. but it's going to be hurting other people in the Town. MR. RUEL-If you look at the Master Plan on the zoning map. you'll find out that most roads are totally inadequate. If. in fact. certain areas. like industrial areas. like the industrial park in back of this store. if that was all built up. would you have a lot more traffic on that road? If it was all built up? MR. MARTIN-Depending on the nature of the use in the park. It could be. MR. RUEL-But you could look at all these different areas on the zoning map. and if these areas were. in fact. built uP. these roads are inadequate. MR. MARTIN-The other one. looming in the shadows. is Corinth Road. MR. BREWER-What do you mean looming in the shadows? now. It's there MR. MARTIN-Well. it doesn't get the appeal or it doesn't get the exposure that these areas do. for whatever reason. but I'll tell you. you've got light industrial zoning down there. west of the intersection there. and if you ever had anybody come in with a major. three shift operation. a truck terminal or something. boy. MR. MACEWAN-..Industrial Park. That's the first one to get in. MR. MARTIN-Exactly. There's more industrial land down there than just that. too. - 59 - ~.,-- ----- MR. RUEL-What I'm saying. it's going to happen every time somebody tries to put something in. MR. MACEWAN-That's what our job is as planners. though. to plan. MR. RUEL-Plan what? Plan to eliminate these people from coming in? We can't do anything about the road. can we? MR. MACEWAN-I haven't said one thing about eliminating these people from coming in at all. MR. RUEL-What are you going to do. widen the road? You can't widen the road. MR. MARTIN-No. In response to that comment. I think. like what the Board elected to do with the Bay Road. Meadowbrook Road. Now is the time. I did go to the Board about that. They said. well, talk to the County. It's a County road. and also. lets talk to Hiland Park. because it's in their minutes of their approval. that they're going to assist in these improvements as they're needed. MR. MACEWAN-You're going to get that out of the Hiland Park? I don't think so. MR. RUEL-I think they're going broke. MR. MARTIN-What I'm trying to say is I think that approach is right. Now is the time. We see some 1300 units of housing approved for this area. Now is the time to start looking at this. MR. MACEWAN-I mentioned that a while back. too. MR. RUEL-AII communities have this problem. I mean. a place is zoned to have industry. to have stores. to have homes. and every time you try to pull in there. you've got a traffic problem. MR. MARTIN-The basic fundamental problem is you've got the private sector butting up against what is a public sector responsibility. in terms of providing roads for commerce and transportation. and that's where the conflict is. MR. RUEL-Of course. you would never build the type of road that required per the zoning map. MR. BREWER-I guess we've got to find out what we're going to do. You say no. You say no. MR. MARTIN-I think Tim has a very good question. If you get the projections. what do you want to get from them? What's going to be the product that comes from that? Because we all know what it's going to say. I think in 1997 you're going to see a failed Level of Service at that intersection. MR. BREWER-Exactly. MR. MARTIN-And what are you going to do? MR. BREWER-What is the conclusion to that study? Do we say no to Wal-Mart now. or do we say to Wal-Mart. wait three years until something is done? I don't know. I'm not pro or con. I just don't know. MR. MARTIN-I think. even if you. see. that's the thing to take out of that study. Even if you apply the growth rate. which doesn't assume anyone specific project. It just says. this is what the growth rate's going to be. If you apply that. it begins to fail. So. it's not necessarily Wal-Mart' s problem. If you say no to them. the growth rate is likely still going to occur. and you're going to still fail in '97. What are you going to do? - 60 - MR. BREWER-I still have a problem with what they're doing at Weeks Road. There's got to be something they can do. I just don't know what it is. I don't. I really don't. I'm not a traffic engineer. and I don't know. MR. MACEWAN-Well. you know. one of the questions you need to ask of these guys is. MR. BREWER-I asked them tonight. I said. this is not going to affect Weeks Road. and that traffic engineer sat right here and said. no. it's not. It's going to be, in fact. better for Weeks Road. I don't believe them. MR. MARTIN-I made a very strong appeal to Mark Kennedy. the traffic engineer and safety engineer at DOT. I said. we've got some 400 units of housing at the end of this road. We'd like to see this signalized. and you read his memo. MR. RUEL-He said no? MR. MARTIN-He said no. MR. RUEL-Why? MR. MARTIN-And as an overriding concern of the red time on Route 9 to have that signalized. that's an offset intersection. MR. BREWER-Just as sure as God made 1 it tIe green apples. Jim. people are. it's going to be worse for them to get out of there. I'm sorry to say. but it is going to be worse. and we're letting it be worse. MRS. TARANA-What is their justification for signalizing there. rather than any place else on that piece of property. anyplace on the project? Why is it better there? Those Level of Service things. those. MR. MARTIN-Because the volume of traffic going in and out of that entrance is far greater than it is going out of Weeks Road. The sheer volume of cars. MRS. TARANA-Okay. Then here's the suggestion that was made tonight. because people get out of Weeks Road. they should cut through the parking lot. MR. MARTIN-I told them that. too. MRS. TARANA-Now. you're telling. .that's the safest thing. That's why should approve the Wal-Mart and its light there. so that people will have a light so they can cut through a parking lot? Is that looking out for the health. and safety and welfare of the Town? I don't think so. MR. RUEL-Can they do that. you actually cut into a lot, and out where the light is? MRS. TARANA-That's the plan. MR. RUEL-You can be sure they'll all do that. MRS. TARANA-Well of course they will. way of getting out. They won't have any other MR. RUEL-And that road will only be used by the trucks coming in and out. MR. MARTIN-See. Now, you know what I think the long term solution is. in the ideal world. the solution is to shut the curb cut down on the south side of the carwash. move the road over. realign it to the north side of the carwash so it lines up with Sweet Road. and - 61 - -- -- vou're all set. MR. BREWER-Well. where does it come into plav on the other side. thouah. Jim? MR. MARTIN-What do vou mean? MR. BREWER-You shut the curb cut off at Weeks Road. MR. MARTIN-Right. and you bring Weeks Road around to the north side of the carwash. MR. BREWER-How do you bring it around the north side? MR. MARTIN-There's room there. You'd have to. MR. MACEWAN-Who owns the property? MR. MARTIN-I don't know. I'm just saying. in the ideal world. MR. HARLICKER-That's part of the. Harris does. MR. MACEWAN-Harris. like in what Harris? MR. HARLICKER-The owners of that motel. MR. BREWER-Bring it from where around the other side? MR. MARTIN-Take Weeks Road. where it comes down now. right next to the Japanese Restaurant. between there and the carwash. and curve it northward. MR. BREWER-Like the paper road Passarelli was talking about? MR. MARTIN-Yes. and then down parallel with the carwash. MR. HARLICKER-See. you put it over directly in the other side of the carwash. Instead of running it on the south property line. you run it on the north property line. MR. RUEL-Somebody's property. right? MR. MACEWAN-I guess maybe this is something that should be brought up in front of the whole Board. and discussed at our next meeting. MR. BREWER-F ine. I don't have a problem with that. Has anybody got anything else before we go? All right. MR. MARTIN-Well. I think we should alert them. tomorrow and tell them. I will call them MR. BREWER-And tell them we discussed it. necessarily going to. Tell them we're not MR. MARTIN-There's not a consensus. but there is certainly a feeling among some members that there may be a consensus. That's not to say that there won't be. but. MR. MACEWAN-All right. What's the next thing we want to talk about. so we can move right along here. Tell us about what's going on with Zaremba and the County. Where's all this. MRS. TARANA-No. That's no big deal. That's all straightened out. That's getting straightened out. MR. BREWER-Zaremba? MR. MARTIN-Yes. The people that were here tonight. MRS. TARANA-That's going to be straightened out. one way or - 62 - -- another. MR. MACEWAN-Give it to me in a nutshell. What's going on? Is it going to be all worked out? Is the County going to be happy. or have they got to go back to Square One? MR. MARTIN-I don't know that they're going to be happy. We had a meeting. after a County Board of Supervisor's meeting. we had a meeting in Victor Grant's Office, the Chairman of the County Board. He was there. Gene Olsen was there. The County Attorney. his name escapes me right now. Sterling Goodspeed. Lawson. and the Assistant County Attorney. Sterling Goodspeed. Pat Tatich was there, myself, Paul Dusek. and Mike Brandt. and it's our position that the 30 days expired. The County had 30 days to act. They did not do that. so. therefore. they're out of the picture. and the Town Board action stands. The County's position is that the County Planning Board is an autonomous Board who has the right to set their own standards as to what they constitute as a complete application. and when they have complete information. They feel that they do not have that. and therefore. the 30 days has not expired. As a matter of fact. it's not even begun. MR. MACEWAN-And where's all this going to end up? MR. MARTIN-Well. we talked a little bit about the law. and I'll give you a little background on that. The law says that the referring municipality sends over an application. What is defined as a complete application is what the referring municipality defines as a complete application. and I've already said we sent over a ~omplete application. which it was. The Zaremba re-zoning applications was one of the better ones I've ever seen. All right. Now. that's the way the law reads. That's Paul Dusek's interpretation. I agree with him. I think he's right on the money. So what we asked for the County Board to do is. act on the application if you want. and approve it if you want. but acknowledge in that approval that the 30 days has expired. That's going to be brought back to the Board as what we the Town think they should do. MR. MACEWAN-Could this potentially tie up this project in litigation for a while. or what? HR. MARTIN-I don't think so. Paul could better address that than I. but I don't think so. but that's what happened at that meeting. and that's what. hopefully. will happen on the 14th. They will act on the application. and acknowledge that the 30 days has expired. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. That's all I had. MRS. TARANA-I wanted to know who brought up to the Town Board that the Planning Board wasn't going out on site visits? MR. MARTIN-It was brought up to me. MRS. TARANA-It wasn't brought up at the Town Board meeting? MR. MARTIN-It was. but a Board member said. we were talking. I think it was Nick Caimano. but you could check the minutes if you want to confirm that. Don't hold me to that. I think it was Nick Caimano. It was a couple of weeks ago. I was talking about the Planning Board's request for a traffic study. I think. It came up the night of that meeting. It was an odd night. Tim wasn't there either. Usually one if not both of you are there. and somehow we got into the discussion. generally. about the Planning Board. and site visits. and the Zoning Board. and they're aware. somehow. that not everybody's going on site visits. and they'd like to strongly discourage that. and have everybody in full attendance on site visits. MRS. TARANA-Well. Nick was on the Planning Board. - 63 - , '-- "-- ,-,/ MR. MARTIN-Right. He knows that we go out on site visits. MR. BREWER-I don't remember Nick going once. MR. MARTIN-Well. some people go on their own. MR. MACEWAN-There are others who think that they went on one. or try to lead us to believe that they went on one. only to open mouth an insert foot. on more than one occasion. MR. MARTIN-So. I don't know. Corinne. where that. but that's the comment. Nothing has been said again. no. MRS. TARANA-I mean. they're aware that ~ of us go on site visits? MR. MARTIN-Yes. HRS. TARANA-And we go as a group. We schedule a meeting to go. MR. MARTIN-Yes. They think that's very good. but they're just aware of one or two instances on each Board who are. MRS. TARANA-The ZBA never has. because they said it at. you were at the meeting, weren't you. when they spoke? MR. MARTIN-They have. on occasion. gone as a group. but they don't do it as a very structured month to month thing. like this Board does. MR. MACEWAN-You're going to get that information to us. from the Army Corp? MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. BREWER-You're going to call Schachner. and you're going to discuss with him about the? MR. MARTIN-We've got a full litter of them. the traffic study. the 10 year projection. MR. MACEWAN-Are you going to mention this thing about the wetlands to Garth Allen? MR. MARTIN-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-What's going on with Lucas Wilson? That's what it was. MR. HARLICKER-As far as I know. nothing more. They haven't gotten back to us at all. MR. MACEWAN-What's going on from a. did you guys look at it from a Town standpoint? MR. HARLICKER-From a Town standpoint. they don't have road frontage. MR. MACEWAN-That's what I've been told. MR. HARLICKER-According to the Town Engineer. or the Town Surveyor and the Highway Department. both are in agreement. MR. MARTIN-The road runs .31 miles from the right-of-way at Bay Road. and that comes to the edge of the pavement of where it is. MR. MACEWAN-So. his property. he does not have frontage. MR. MARTIN-They have a black hole. again. in the Town. just like that property behind Passarelli's. - 64 - "-' .'-- - MR. MACEWAN-Let me ask this. If he doesn't have frontage on that road. now does that mean that's a nonconforming lot. and if so. how the hell did it get that way? There's no variance there. MR. BREWER-I don't know. MR. MARTIN-You'd have to do a title search on that lot. MR. MACEWAN-I mean. I guess what I'm starting to see. here. this' poor guy was sold a bill of goods. MR. MARTIN-Could be. but he has control of that small. narrow variance. control that strip. frontage on Walker Lane. one of two routes. If he can't get strip himself. then he can get a then he would have the necessary MR. RUEL-That's a hardship. He should be able to get it. MR. MARTIN-Yes. variance. I think he's got a pretty good argument for a MR. RUEL-Whatever happened to Stewarts? MR. HARLICKER-They represented today. they should have revised plans. what she said within a week. MR. RUEL-That's old. They were supposed to do that a month ago. MR. HARLICKER-They' re working on it. stormwater management plan now. They're working on the MR. RUEL-Working on what. a revised plan? They were supposed to come up with answers as to how they were going to correct the deficiencies. MR. HARLICKER-They're coming up with a new plan. They'll be back. Their revised plan will show how they addressed. They will incorporate modifications to the site in this new plan. They're going to realign the parking. They're going to.. the drainage system. They'll put in new curb cuts. Those were the violations. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anything else? On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED. Timothy Brewer. Chairman - 65 -