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1994-03-08 SP - ..-/ QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING MARCH 8TH, 1994 INDEX Workshop Session for Site Plan No. 1-91 Pyramid Company of Glens Falls (Aviation Mall expansion) THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. '--- --/ QUEENSBURY PLANNING SPECIAL MEETING MARCH 8TH, 1994 7:00 P.M. BOARD MEETING MEMBERS PRESENT TIMOTHY BREWER, CHAIRMAN GEORGE STARK, SECRETARY JAMES OBERMAYER ROGER RUEL ROBERT PALING CRAIG MACEWAN CATHERINE LABOMBARD PLANNER-SCOTT HARLICKER STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI MR. BREWER-We should set a date, and the 31st is on what day? MR. PALING-The 31st of March is on a Thursday. MR. BREWER-Does anybody have a problem with that, the 31st, a public hearing on the Route 149 Corridor Study? MR. BREWER-Do you have a copy of that, by the way? MRS. LABOMBARD-Yes. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. MR. BREWER-Okay. That day is open for here? I'm sure we're going to need this room. MR. HARLICKER-I think so. I think it was tentatively set for that date last month. So, I'm pretty sure it's reserved. If it's not, is there a second date, just in case we can't get the room? MR. BREWER-Jim had the 31st. MR. MACEWAN-All he said was he wanted it some time before the end of the month. MR. BREWER-Well, if we can't do it the 31st, we can go into April, the first Tuesday in April, whatever day that is. MR. PALING-That's the fifth. MRS. LABOMBARD-The first Tuesday is the fifth. MR. BREWER-The fifth. Okay. So we can introduce that. MOTION TO SET PUBLIC HEARING DATE OF THURSDAY MARCH, 31ST. 1994 OR AN ALTERNATIVE DATE OF APRIL 5TH. 1994 FOR THE ROUTE 149 CORRIDOR PLANNING STUDY, Introduced by Timothy Brewer who moved for its adoption, seconded by George Stark: Duly adopted this 8th day of March, 1994, by the following vote: AYES: Mr. Stark, Mr. Obermayer, Mrs. LaBombard, Mr. Ruel, Mr. MacEwan, Mr. Paling, Mr. Brewer NOES: NONE MR. BREWER-Okay. That's done. Gentlemen. OLD BUSINESS: SITE PLAN NO. 1-91 TYPE: UNLISTED MODIFICATION PYRAMID COMPANY - 1 - -- OF GLENS FALLS OWNER: SAME AS ABOVE ZONE: ESC-25A LOCATION: AVIATION MALL, AVIATION ROAD AT I-87 MODIFICATION OF EXISTING SITE PLAN APPROVAL. THE MODIFICATION INCLUDES MOVING THE NEW J. C . PENNEY'S STORE 30' WEST, ELIMINATION OF THE 15,000 SQ. FT. SEAR'S EXPANSION, INTERNAL RECONFIGURATION OF PROPOSED DEPT. STORE D AND RECONFIGURATION OF THE PROPOSED ADDITIONAL PARKING. TAX MAP NO. 98-1-5.2 LOT SIZE: 56.31 ACRES SECTION: 179-27.1 MICHAEL PIAZZOLA, REPRESENTING APPLICANT, PRESENT MR. PIAZZOLA-For those of you whom I haven't met, my name is Michael Piazzola. I'm Mall Manager and the Project Director of the Aviation Mall in Queensbury, and I brought tonight with me, Bob Stewart, John Meyer, from John Meyer Consulting, Anthony Lester who's the Project Manager for John Meyer Consulting, and Rich Roberts, who's our architect for the J. C. Penney's store, the designer of the building, both us and J.C. Penney's, and we're here tonight, and Jim and I were talking, as well as Scott, to bring you all up to speed on the exciting plans that we have for the coming next three months down at the Aviation Mall to expand the new J.C. Penney and ten or twelve new mall shops, and eventually a new Department Store. We wanted to take you all through the existing site plan which was approved by the Planning Board in January of 1991, and then bring you through the modified site plan, which I'm sure you all have seen, either the cover sheet of or the engineering, or both, and show you what type of modifications we'd like you to approve next week, to get this project off to a running start, and if I could do that now, I will. MR. BREWER-Sure. MR. PIAZZOLA-Okay. This first (lost word) plot plan is the approved site plan from January of 1991, and what was approved back then, the total existing mall gross leasable area was 483,147 square feet, and we're adding, by virtue of adding a new J. C. Penney, which was going to be 82,000 square feet, we were creating new mall shop area on the order of 50,000 square feet, which would accommodate ten to twelve new mall tenants, and a 50,000 square foot department store deed, we call it, because we approved the pad back then, but didn't have a tenant in mind for that particular location, and a 15,000 square foot Sears expansion. Basically, when the zone district was created, specific to this particular parcel, this site design and engineering was also created to go in accord with that zoning and basically you've got a total percent of permeability being 21.26 percent. The Zoning Code calls for over twenty percent, parking being five per thousand. The existing parking was 2467 then, and the total parking provided was going to be 2950, which was four spaces over the five per thousand requirement that the zoning called for. So, basically, you just have, at that point, you have an expansion of, in three places, the new J.C. Penney about 82,800, 500 square feet, a Department Store D of 50,000 square feet, a Sears expansion of 15,000, and the old J.C. Penney, as I said, was going to be converted to new mall shops, and any questions on the approved site plan as it sits? What's happened in the interim is a lot of things have changed. I'm new to this project. You probably know Lou Gagliano who was the Project Manager before I got here. He's now in Crossgates in Albany working on that pro j ect. A lot of things have changed. What we have now, and from this modified site plan that we've compiled in late February was, the same size J.C. Penney as the original approval called for, a new Department Store D, going from 50,000 square feet to 65,000 square feet, which basically takes, after you do the mathematical computation, takes the 15,000 square feet from Sears expansion and drops it into that Department Store D, and as I've stated in the letter to you and Jim Martin, back in '90 and '91, and '89, there were a lot of department store deals and retailers in the market, and because of the retailer shake up that happened in the late 80' s and early 90' s, I'm sure you're aware the popularity now of these category killers and these big (lost word). The tenants that we've been talking to to try to land - 2 - '-- -- in this Department Store D, and also we'll need them to get our financing on the project as a whole, are allover 50,000 square feet. They're not 111,000 square foot Wal-Marts, but a lot of these retailers, in order to maintain their competitiveness in the market, need to be more than 50,000 feet to compete with a 111.000 square foot Wal-Mart or 150,000 square foot Super K. I wish I could tell you who those tenants are, but we're negotiating with four or five right now. If I mention one of them, then that would impact the negotiations with the other two or three. MR. BREWER-So what you're saying is you're going from, potentially, a 91, from 10 or 12 tenants, now down to about three? MR. PIAZZOLA-In the old J.C. Penney's space, Tim? What's happening is we're going to go with the same amount of tenants for the mall shop area, because that's not changing. That's changing. It's going from a rectangle to a box, to put it bluntly. We have some model overlays to show you how we're going to accomplish that, but that's still going to be 10 or 12 mall shop tenants, and again, we're in heated negotiations with a lot of them, and a little bit more upscale than we have now, and I think that's a good thing for both the mall and the community, but that's going to remain 10 or 12 mall shop tenants. Department Store D is getting bigger by 15,000 feet, and the Sears expansion is going away. That's simply put. So what John Meyer Consulting has done is they've re- engineered the site plan to reflect these changes, because things over here, the boxes, again, to put it simply, over here, are moving. We're not changing the configuration of the mall. We're just moving GLA around. So we wind up, once we re-do the engineering, with a total percent of permeability. again, in excess of the requirement of twenty percent. We're at 21.01 percent, and we also have a total parking provided of 2,943 spaces, which is two spaces over what we need to meet the five per thousand requirement. So, really, that's all of it in a nutshell, and that's really kind of an overview. All of us are here tonight to answer all of your questions in great detail. We'll stay here as long as we have to to satisfy your answers. So, again, this is a great opportunity for me to come in front of all of you, because I have only been at this project for six months. I've been in the real estate business for fifteen years, and as you can see, these gentlemen have been on this business for a while as well, and I think it's a good opportuni ty for us to tell you what we have planned for this summerlfall of '94 at the Aviation Mall, and also get your feedback, because that's very important to us, and I guess we can just answer any questions you have, if you have any. MR. BREWER-Okay. Does anybody have any questions? anticipate the construction to start? When do you MR. PIAZZOLA-We're prepared, essentially, to start construction immediately, based on a March 15th approval. One of the reasons we're moving, I think if I put the mylar overlays on the board, that might help. This is what we're asking you to do. This is the chain that's going to occur. What's happening, Tim brought up a good point, was there's 10,000 square feet of mall shop area, okay, that in order to keep, if I could back up a little bit, the original site plan approval landed the new J.C. Penney that we're building against the old in such a way that this wall, the new J.C. Penney wall, landed on top of the receiving docks, the existing receiving docks in the compactor areas for the existing J. C. Penney's, and back in '91 maybe nobody, it wasn't addressed as to what would happen once we started construction of the new J. C. Penney, and what would happen, based on the site plan we have approved, is J.C. Penney's headquarters in PIano, Texas has indicated that they won't be able to receive goods during the construction process because we're going to be building a new building on the receiving dock in the compactor area, which may, in fact, force them to close down the store, because for them to take pallets off of trucks and try to get them through what are considered entryways for pedestrians would not only be time - 3 - consuming and expensive, but they just wouldn't be able to take the volume of merchandise they need to keep the store stocked. So what we're asking the Planning Board to approve is that we take 10,000 square feet out of the existing mall shops, as approved, and move it over to this west wall, which would move the new J.C. Penney closer to the highway. That's 10,000 feet. Remember, we have 15,000 feet from Sears, which we have approved. This doesn't show because this is the modified site plan, but the approved site plan shows a 15,000 square foot Sears expansion here. Replace that 10,000 feet with 10,000 feet from this expansion, bring it back in to Department Store D, because when you move this west wall of J.C. Penney out, you're making the mall shops less of a rectangle and more of a square. So, we're just moving this gross leasable area from one place to another, and that's pushing the J.C. Penney out to the highway, closer to the highway by 30 feet. So, shift that 10,000 feet over to here, take 10,000 feet from the Sears expansion and bring it back in to this portion of the building, but attach it to Department Store D, so that Department Store D goes from 50,000, add the 10,000 we're taking from Sears, and that's 60,000, then bring the other 5,000 from Sears out to the west wall of Department Store D, which makes this a total of 65,000, and it really doesn't impact the new mall shops area, except, again, it goes from being more of a rectangle into more of a square. MR. MACEWAN-How does that plan alleviate the problems with the congestion for the loading docks? MR. PIAZZOLA-It does, because what it does is it lands the new J.C. Penney on the outside, the furthest most outside wall of the existing J.C. Penney. not on the interior wall where the loading docks and the compactor would be impacted. J.C. Penney there has two or three jogs in the outside wall. There's an old TBA, Tire, Battery, and Accessory area. Then it comes into an entrance, then it comes in once again, as you go closer to Aviation Road. So you have a couple of jogs. This plan brings the J.C. Penney store to the furthestmost point of the existing J.C. Penney, which means you wouldn't impact their existing operation at all during the construction process. So that's the rational, that's the first rationale for being here tonight is to ask the Planning Board to approve the movement, if you will, of J.C. Penney 30 feet west, and transfer the 15,000 feet into Department Store D, so we can get more competitive in the market place. MR. OBERMAYER-So where will they unload the trucks, then? Are you saying in that corridor right there? MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, this won't exist. MR. OBERMAYER-Right. MR. PIAZZOLA-They' re going to be unloading the trucks in the existing receiving area, as well as using the existing compactor area, during the construction area. MR. MACEWAN-And once the new J.C. Penney is occupied, then they'll start construction on the other store? MR. PIAZZOLA-Once the new J. C. Penney is occupied, then what we have to do is we have to do the mall shop expansion area, open up this corridor between the existing front door of the J.C. Penney's, if you will, for the ~ J.C. Penney, finish the mall shops, get those tenants working, and then start on the Department Store D pad. One of Penney's requirements is that no new construction other than the new J.C. Penney go on while the J.C. Penney is being built. So if we signed the lease tomorrow with Department Store D for 65,000 feet, it would have to wait until August 3rd to start construction, when the new J.C. Penney opens. MR. BREWER-So you anticipate that's going to be done August 2nd? - 4 - --' MR. PIAZZOLA-Hopefully. MR. BREWER-Or earlier, actually, because you're going to have to put merchandise and everything in it. MR. PIAZZOLA-We had an earlier turnover date. The opening is August 3rd, but the turnover date to stock the merchandise and (lost word) the store is a little bit earlier, and one of the things that John Meyer Consulting, our Engineer has done, is they've engineered about 1,000 square feet out of the GLA, from the proposed to the existing. So we had approval in 1991 to do a 106,000 square foot expansion. This modified site plan is for 105,000 square feet. So, the 1,000 square feet that we would have to build parking against, for every 1,000 square feet we build, we'd have to build five parking spaces. We can use that in our own space. MR. BREWER-Is the parking, the parking, naturally, is going to have to be effected when you start construction on that. What's going to take place there? I mean, are you going to close that end of the parking lot? MR. PIAZZOLA-No. One of the things that's critical for both fire access and for mall traffic is to keep this ring road open. So the existing ring road runs something like this, through the new J.C. Penney. What we're going to do is we're going to build as soon as we can. We've got about four feet of frost out there right now, but we're going to build this ring road in a rough state, and probably put a base course of asphalt on it, and basically run this ring road as our new ring road throughout the construction process and keep that ring road open. We will not restrict the circular traffic pattern in the mall whatsoever during construction. MR. BREWER-But as far as parking spaces, are you going to eliminate parking spaces during the construction? I mean, you don't want people parking there when you've got machinery and? MR. PIAZZOLA-That's right, Tim. What we'll do, this is a parking area now that we're going to be bUilding a building on. We're going to have to take that out, and our staging area is in this back parking lot which, having been there six months, I can truly attest to having seen maybe two or three cars parked there since I've been there. Trucks sometimes use it as an overnight area, and making deliveries to Caldor early in the morning, but that will be the construction staging area, and the ring road will run from, down on to the Aviation Road entrance around the mall and then skirt the staging area, and then back at the existing ring road. MR. PALING-Are you saying that that ring road will be usable during construction? MR. PIAZZOLA-Yes. MR. PALING-And how close will the final ring road be to the new building? MR. PIAZZOLA-The final ring road to the building? Well, this is 100 scale. I'd say that's probably about 200 feet. MR. PALING-Okay. So you've got parking. JOHN MEYER MR. MEYER-I'd just like to clarify one additional thing that Mike said. My name is John Meyer. There will be at least as much parking during construction as there is now. That is, additional parking will be created, in addition to the relocation of the ring road, so that you won't have less parking than you have now, but you only need the total amount of parking after Department Store D is completed, that is the total ~ amount, which is 2943 spaces. - 5 - "-- '- Does that clarify that? MR. BREWER-Yes. One other question that comes to my mind is, I know when this first came to be, there was some sort of a contract with the Town about taking fill out of there. Is that still going to happen, or not going to happen? BOB STEWART MR. STEWART-Maybe I could take a step back and give you a little more background, because I think most of you were not on the Board when this thing first evolved. Back in '91, Aviation Mall was interested in expanding. Well, the economy was a little bit flat. A lot of the stores were still interested. and the Aviation Mall was really doing quite well, compared to other malls in Albany and other places. At that time, we looked at the zoning, and the zoning in Queensbury really was designed, any mall type zoning, was designed for plaza malls, strip malls. There was no zoning that really had ever been designed to take into consideration enclosed malls and the problems, and the advantages they had. So, at that time, we went to the Town Board and had prolonged discussions, and finally it worked out that an entirely new zone was created just for enclosed, large enclosed malls, to accommodate the problems that they had that were different than strip malls and other retail establishments. At that time, the Town was interested in what the Aviation Mall people had in mind, and what we had in mind, or what they had in mind at that time is that Sears had made it clear that they wanted to expand their stores and to relocate their automotive department to some extent. J.C. Penney had shown some interest in relocating and expanding, and there were some retail department stores who were showing some strong interest. So, Aviation Mall had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen. So, not only did the new zone get created back then, we came before the Boards and were very site specific. We actually laid out exactly what we thought would happen and where the new buildings would be, and how the expansion would go, and that went before ~ Board, and this Board approved it back at that time. The rezoning was done. What happened at that point was a competing shopping center started a lawsui t, arguing that the Town Board should not have done the rezoning aspect of it. That dragged things on, I forget the exact month, but six to nine months, something like that. Finally that lawsuit was dismissed, but by this time, the construction period for that year had gotten away from us. It was too late to build and get stores in for the ThanksgivinglChristmas season. So, that moved it over a year, and by that time, the economy really went flat, and stores were no longer thinking about expanding. Now the economy is coming back. Stores are now actively back in the market, and want to move, but in the ensuing couple of years, a couple of changes have taken place. Sears has changed its mode of operation. I don't know if any of you have noticed it, but they're not servicing automobiles any more. They're doing and tires and batteries. You don't even do an oil change at Sears any more. They've gone to a different mode of operation. As a result of that, they no longer desire what they desired back in 1991, which was 15,000 square feet of expansion area for them. So, we pulled that off the boards, and that gives us that 15,000 square feet to reallocate some other way. Essentially, the situation, as I understand it, with Penney's, is pretty much the way it was then. They still want to go forward with their basic concept. The large department store that was going to come in, the new thinking, as I understand that, is from 50,000 square feet was an adequate size for a department store in '91. Under the new mode of operation, with the big retailers coming in, they're looking for about 65,000 square feet. So, essentially, to accommodate the new retailing concepts, what is being proposed is simply to move the boxes around, within the site plan that was approved by this Board back in '91, not make it any bigger. As a matter of fact, it's about 1,000 square feet smaller, but just to realign the boxes, and as Michael has told you, particularly because Penney's realized if they built it exactly where they planned, they'd be out of business - 6 - ---' during construction, and obviously, none of us want that, so we've got to realign a little bit to accommodate that. With that by the way of background, Tim, your question was, what happened with the dirt and the agreement. There was a formal contract drawn with the Town of Queensbury back in 1991, that when we did the work we would have to cut back into that bank that exists there now, and excavate a considerable amount of fill. I don't remember how many thousands of square feet, but a lot of it. Part of that, we agreed to give the Town of Queensbury, and in fact to truck it to a location that they had designated to stock pile for road construction and other uses that Queensbury thought would be beneficial to them. That agreement is still in full force and effect, and we discussed it with Fred Champagne just a few days ago, and he's got his eye on that to make sure that doesn't get dropped. So all the agreements and understandings that were put in place back in '91 are still there. There's been no change. The only change is fairly simple, and that is the realigning of the blocks within the mall itself, but I think we felt that it might be helpful to have this workshop session tonight, not so much to discuss the changes, at least in mY mind, because those are not all that complicated, but to bring you up to speed on what sort of led up to this, over the last two or there years, which can be confusing, particularly since many of you were not on the Board, and while some of you may have watched what was going on back at that time, we thought it might be a good idea to bring you back. MR. BREWER-I guess what that question leads up to, Bob, if that is still going to happen, I was curious. I can't remember how much the amount was of fill that's going to be pulled out of there, and how's the truck traffic going to be controlled? I'm just concerned about that. MR. PIAZZOLA-It's 100,000 yards, Tim, that's coming off of that west hill, which is about 40 feet high, from the parking lot, and that's going down one exit to the Town. MR. BREWER-Can you translate that into truckloads for me, 100, 1,000 truckloads? MR. PIAZZOLA-A twenty yard truck, about 50 for every thousand. MR. BREWER-Five hundred trucks? MR. PIAZZOLA-Five hundred trucks. RICH ROBERTS MR. ROBERTS-Five thousand trucks. MR. BREWER-Five thousand trucks. MR. PIAZZOLA-Five thousand truckloads. MR. BREWER-That's a lot of truckloads. MR. OBERMAYER-You're taking out Phase I , right? It looks like farther. additional fill, I guess, you're cutting the bank from quite MR. BREWER-Cutting back into the bank. MR. MEYER-We'd be cutting back into this bank here. MR. BREWER-And that's going to be hauled by the, the Mall's going to arrange that? MR. PIAZZOLA-The existing edge of pavement, Tim, again, if you will, this the existing J.C. Penney, right here, and the existing edge of pavement is right out about here, and it falls within the new J.C. Penney. So we're going to have to cut this bank back, and - 7 - .- -_/ cutting that bank back, the deal with the Town, in exchange for 100,000, this is the Town of Queensbury property that Pyramid of Glens Falls bought in 1991, in exchange for that cash payment, the deal was that we would deliver 100,000 cubic yards of sand to the Town, when construction started, we started working on that hill. We're going to try to do that, and try to keep this access open as long as we can. We're going to try to do that trucking at off hours of the Mall. We know, based on information provided by our marketing team, when people come to the Mall, when they shop, when the busiest times are. So we're going to try to avoid conflicts between big trucks and cars by doing that hauling at off hours. Again, we're sensitive to the fact that we're abutting some residential back here, too. So we can't run trucks all night long, but we can do probably in the early morning and later on in the early evening. MR. OBERMAYER-You don't want to do it in the early evening. Traffic is terrible right in there. MR. BREWER-No. I'm just concerned about that. MR. PIAZZOLA-At the rush hour, you're right. MR. BREWER-I have no idea how long it will take for those trucks to come out of there, but, I mean, if you're going to be talking about doing it in the summer time, it's just a concern I have. That's all. It's by no means going to stop the pro j ect, but it's something you have to consider, how you're going to do it, which way you're going to go. What's the best way to go? MR. OBERMAYER-Where is the fill going to? MR. PIAZZOLA-It's going down to Exit 18. I mean, again, trying to run a business here and build some stores, we're sensitive to the impact on the customer who comes to shop at the Mall, in relative quiet peace. We're going to try to work out some sort of plan, staging plan, whereby we can all not interfere with that traffic, as best we can, given the restrictions of this site. MR. BREWER-Do you know who's going to arrange for that? I mean, does Paul Naylor have any input on it? I'd just like to have an idea of what's going to happen with it. that's all. MR. PIAZZOLA-I've been talking to the waterlsanitary sewer department, and I've also talked to Jim Martin on several occasions, Dave Hatin. We've talked about it, and we're willing to sit down with the DPW and come up with a strategy for doing that, and we will do that. MR. BREWER-Okay. That's all ~ have. Anybody else? MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. Can you explain to me what the paved swale is all about, on the top of the slope? MR. MEYER-Yes. MR. OBERMAYER-I notice you say here, down here you say, maintain grass swale top of slope, and down here it says paved swale. MR. MEYER-Yes. The paved swale is to take any drainage from the upper area, from the motel area, which might come across, normally, onto our property, and with the slope in there, we don't want it to go down the slope. So we would intersect it at the top of the slope, and then carry it down to a catch basin, out towards Aviation Road as shown on the drainage plan. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. How deep is that swale? MR. MEYER-It's about a foot deep. It won't overflow. It's designed so that it can carry the surface runoff. Now, as you're - 8 - ---'" probably aware, if you've been up there, there's a paved driveway up here, which contains the water itself. So it's only the area between the paved driveway and the top of the slopes. MR. OBERMAYER-And then this is just going to be a grass slope? MR. MEYER-That's grass seeded slope, and it will be treated with, I believe, Crown Vetch. MR. OBERMAYER-It's going to have Crown Vetch and then something along the bottom of the slope to prevent it from eroding and filling in the parking lot? MR. MEYER-Well, yes. MR. OBERMAYER-I mean, this is pretty steep. It's not like one on two. MR. MEYER-It is one on two. MR. OBERMAYER-It is one on two. MR. MEYER-No. It will be designed so that it will not erode. The ground cover that will be on it will prevent the erosion. At the bottom there will be another swale to pick up any drainage coming down the slope, before it goes onto the parking lot. and we've done this on many, many similar shopping centers. MR. ROBERTS-My name's Rich Roberts. As Mike said, I'm the archi tect. I'd I ike to address two things. Mr. Brewer, you brought up the fact about the fact about the fixturing and time sequencing from when the new Penney's opens, and how that interfaces with the existing Penney operation. J. C. Penney's merchandising, people tend to fixture and stock the new store with seasonal goods that would be coming into the store during June and July, as opposed to bringing any of that merchandise into the old store, and basically, on August 2nd, they close the old store, and on August 3rd, they open the new store, and on August 4th, they start taking their stuff out of the old store, and Pyramid comes in and starts doing the demolition. So they have it timed to their inventory and their merchandising. We included here the exterior elevations, just to give you a sense and a feel for what the aesthetics of the new J. C. Penney store will look like. The exterior will consist of a block veneer, very similar in color and look to the existing Mall, and will have a few horizontal dark brick accent bands. This is a design that J.C. Penney has used a number of times successfully throughout the east coast, most recently down in Dover, Delaware, they did a similar store. The entry features which are enlarged on the lower elevation, and shown on all three, will be the feature elevations at each one of the sides of the J. C. Penney store. The north elevation, which is facing Aviation Road, is this elevation here. The rear elevation, the south elevation, is shown there, with the receiving dock area, and then the long elevation is the west elevation, which faces the thru-way. There is bronze, spandrel glass. and there is some granite flanking the entry canopy. This is a little bit of an upscale look to J.C. Penney that they've been starting to hit in this market, in the northeast specifically, and as previously said, it's basically the same size as the existing J.C. Penney store. The interior finish will once again be slightly upscale of what they are now. Obviously, what's there now is quite dated, from J.C. Penney's merchandising standpoint, and the new fixture plant inside is their newest prototype which you'll start to see in other stores throughout the area, but it's a little bit of an increase on what we have right now, obviously, and I just wanted to review that with you, and if you have any architectural questions, that's why I'm here. MR. PALING-I have one question. Now, what I'm looking at there is just wall, and all I can see is wall. Will there be anything else - 9 - - showing in the way of ventilation, heating, air-conditioning equipment, or will it be as it is pictured there? MR. ROBERTS-It'll be like, as it is right now, unless you're standing on the highway and you can look through the trees and the slope and look down on the J.C. Penney building. J.C. Penney is already conscious and concerned with what they call their site line studies, and we have to present to them cross sections through the parking lot to the building showing the locations from the rooftop, mechanical equipment, and the parapet walls are designed high enough, and the roof top equipment is set back far enough into the store to allow them to be screened. MR. RUEL-Did you say that that, those illustrations are compatible with the rest of the architecture in the area? MR. ROBERTS-I said that they were compatible with the building materials that you see at the Mall right now. This yellowish light brown beige, if you want, block is very similar in color and texture to what's on the wall right now. So we were concerned with tying in with the existing Aviation Mall. MR. RUEL-Let me get this straight. The only reason this applicant is here and coming back to the Planning Board is because of the modifications, right? That's the only reason. There's no expiration of any original site plan? MR. BREWER-No. They've had previous extensions. MR. MEYER-That's correct. This basically an amended site plan approval, just to bring it up to date to where the current design is. In terms of the total building area that is proposed, it's essentially the same. It's slightly less. It's 105,000 square feet of additional floor area. Before your Board approved 106,000. MR. RUEL-Did you have an extension on the first site plan application? MR. MEYER-It's my understanding, yes. MR. RUEL-All right, and now is this just modification? MR. MEYER-Just modifications. MR. RUEL-Just these modifications you've shown us? MR. MEYER-That's correct, and on the complete set of plans with all the detailed engineering. All the utilities, the water, the sewer, the drainage is all essentially the same. There are, obviously, some minor modifications because the configuration of the building has changed somewhat, as Mike described to you, and as is shown. MR. RUEL-Do you have a simple list somewhere, indicating what these modifications are, above and beyond the 1991 site plan approval? You've given us a hell of a lot of details here, and I wasn't present in 1991, and I'm trying to visualize what these changes are. It seems to me it could be somewhat simplified. MR. MEYER-Let me do this for you. If you look at these two plans, the one down below is the one that is proposed now, and this is the plan that was approved in 1991. MR. RUEL-Okay. All right, that's not the existing plan? MR. MEYER-This is not the existing plan. MR. RUEL-Right. Do you have anything showing the existing, and then the 1991 site approval, and then the 1994 modifications? MR. MEYER-Let me just say this, that if you were to imagine these - 10 - _. -- three buildings taken off, the building that remains here is what is existing. It's exactly what is existing. MR. RUEL-Okay. Fine. MR. OBERMAYER-They've reviewed your parking and all that. I mean, that was already prior approved? MR. MEYER-Yes. We went through a complete review of the site plans. As a matter of fact, the site plans that are before you are all of the original drawings which we simply modified. We erased the lines, and modified them, to get from this configuration, and also that, as Bob explained to you, the proposed expansion to Sears, to this configuration, and when I say this configuration, this is the drawing PS-1, which is at the beginning of the set that we have given to you, and then there are enlarged plans of each individual area, which are the grading and utilities plans for the site itself. MR. RUEL-So you have some changes in parking, and you have changes in landscaping. MR. MEYER-Yes. We have changes in the parking, consistent with the changes in the building configuration. MR. RUEL-Based on the square footage, right? MR. MEYER-Well, yes. There are, I think, about six or seven fewer parking spaces because of the thousand square foot (lost word) scenario. MR. RUEL-So you more than meet the requirement. MR. MEYER-We more than meet the requirement. MR. RUEL-By five, I understand. MR. MEYER-We require 2943. We have 2941. Now, when you say we more than, we meet the requirement. More is a relative term. We're two spaces in excess of what you're zoning requires, but as Mike pointed out, even, I'm sure you've been out there many times, other than the very peak seasons of the year, most of the, shall I say, southwest corner adjacent to the Northway hardly ever gets used. MR. RUEL-It's empty? MR. MEYER-Yes, as a matter of fact, in some cases, there's some seams in the pavement where you might even see some grass growing, because it's really not used, and that's typical in a Mall of this type. MR. RUEL-How about the permeable area? Now that's negative, isn't it? MR. MEYER-The permeable area is 21.01 percent. The requirement is 20 percent. MR. RUEL-So you're 1. something over? MR. MEYER-Yes, and in 1991, we had slightly more. We had 21.23 or 26 percent, which was also in excess of the requirement, but essentially the same, slightly less permeable area with this new plan than there was originally, and that's simply a function of how the building lays out and so on and so forth. There are, as I said, minor changes, also, in the layout of the water main, and of the drainage, and of the sanitary sewer, consistent with the minor changes to the building, outlined as we've indicated to you. MR. RUEL-Where have you donated this other access road, so we have - 11 - another exit out of this Aviation Mall? MR. MEYER-I don't know of any place. MR. STEWART-Maybe I can help you there. Again, historically, there has been conversation with Planning Boards over the years as to whether or not it would be possible to put through a road from the Aviation Mall down through the Grand Union, and to come into Glen Street where the red light is by the old Sears shopping center. Now this was not a decision to be made by the Aviation Mall. They'd indicated back over the many years we've talked about this, they'd be glad to cooperate, but you had to go through the ownership of three, four, five separate parcels, and it's been debated back and forth for years, and sometimes we'd get three or four people to say yes, and one owner would say no, and then the cast of characters would shift. However, now, the present thinking of the Queensbury Planning Department, Jim Martin and other people, is that they don't feel this is well advised, because they don't think this is the best way to go, and there's a possibility of runoff in this direction, but that involves acquiring the property of other people and so on. MR. BREWER-If you remember, there is a plan that shows, coming out by Woodbury's or Moore's whatever it is. I don't know the name of that street. MR. STEWART-By the apartment complex. MR. OBERMAYER-Right. MR. BREWER-Yes. It goes down behind there, swings around, Foster Avenue. That's it. MR. STEWART-So, again, it's a question, that's going to come up, I think, some time in the future, and the Aviation Mall people have indicated they'd be glad to sit down and cooperate and discuss it with anybody, but as far as what and when and who's going to be involved, apparently, that's really not up on the table yet. There's a long ways to go on that. MR. RUEL-I think it would be a great economic asset to the Aviation Mall. MR. STEWART-I think any fluid orderly flow of traffic in and out is a benefit. I don't think there's any question about that, but how and where and what expense, and over who's land and all the rest of it gets a little complicated. MR. RUEL-I just thought I'd mention it. MR. OBERMAYER-I have a question on, has lighting ever been raised as an issue down in these outer parking lots, because they are very segregated from the main parking areas, for security. MR. MEYER-Lighting is provided wi thin the design that we have there, and we've laid out the parking area lighting to provide a minimum of 1.5 foot candles average maintained intensity. The lighting has been also located so as to provide lighting within the parking lot, but there are cut offs on the minimum fixtures that are proposed, so that it doesn't spill onto adjoining property. MR. OBERMAYER-This is a very busy area right here, coming in. Do you have, like, snow removal? I notice when you plow, it's plowed right along this area right here, and the snow, of course, goes to the side. That'll almost really force the people to walk out in the road, unless this sidewalk is well maintained, and I know the Mall's been having problems. MR. MEYER-Well, typically, it's been my experience that the people do tend to walk on the roadways, in any shopping mall, and I - 12 - ~ -- . " wouldn't see that as being different here. That road has been in existence for many years. The parking lot has not. MR. OBERMAYER-Right. That's what I'm saying, it will make people almost walk out in the road. There'll be more pedestrian traffic along there, is what I'm concerned about. MR. MEYER-Yes. MR. RUEL-When you excavate in that area adjacent to the Northway, will you have to put up a retaining wall? MR. MEYER-At the bottom of the slope, there will be a small retaining wall, yes. MR. RUEL-Just a small one, but it would slope up, I guess. MR. MEYER-Yes. I would also point out, getting back to this parking area, I'd like to say that that parking area, as sensitively as I can say it, is basically to meet the Code, more than anything else. It's one of the more extreme parking areas, in terms of distance from the building. So it would tend to be used only during the perhaps ten or twelve busiest days of the year. The rest of the time. MR. BREWER-What parking is that? MR. OBERMAYER-The one down by the, the remote location, really. MR. MEYER-This area. It's the remote location. Again, you're Ordinance is quite generous in terms of the amount of parking that you require, as compared to shopping center requirements or the tenant requirements. I wouldn't say you should cut it down, but it is more than is absolutely required, and so that's why we find that the outer perimeters of the parking area, most days, are not used, because you have more than you need. MR. BREWER-I don't think anybody goes to a parking lot and wants to park far away from the store. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. but during the holidays, that's where they're going to park. MR. MEYER-Yes. MRS. LABOMBARD-My question pertains to the construction of Department Store D, and the existing entrance to the Cinema, going through the back of the Mall. What are the new plans? Is the entrance going to stay there? What's going to happen to the movie goers when the construction is going on? MR. MEYER-There will be access to the movie theater during that construction. It wi 11 be provided. It will, naturally, vary during each phase of the construction, but there will always be access, not only to the theater, but to the rest of the Mall as well. MRS. LABOMBARD-Through that back door? MR. MEYER-Through that back door. There may be temporary periods where they would need that access, but there'd be an alternative access provided, but there always will be access. MRS. LABOMBARD-And the final plan calls for what kind of a, is the entrance basically going to stay right where it is? MR. MEYER-It's my understanding that it will, yes. MRS. LABOMBARD-Well, I'm just thinking, because when you park in the back at night, now you'll have to just be walking along the - 13 - <'.,..""""",,,,- '-- ~." whole length of that building now. MR. MEYER-Yes. There will be some parking in here, adjacent to the building, as well. MRS. LABOMBARD-There will be? MR. MEYER-And that will be very well lit, obviously. MR. RUEL-Do you have a tenant for the proposed store in area D? MR. MEYER-As Mike indicated, that negotiation is very tentative. It is ongoing. It is my understanding that it is ongoing, but at this point, we can't say. MR. RUEL-The parking area, that new parking area, between J. C. Penney and the Northway, how do these people, from that parking area, where's the entrance to the building? MR. MEYER-There are several entrances to the building. MR. RUEL-They are no entrances in the back, right? MR. MEYER-There's an entrance, if you can call this the back. Really, in a shopping center of this type, an enclosed mall. there is no front or back, although, you might call this the back. They're really entrances around all the sides. In any case, there are entrances on three sides of the Penney bUilding to the outside, and if you look at the elevation view that the architect presented before, these are the three entry points to the building. So there's an entrance here. There's an entrance here, and there's an entrance here, to the exterior. In addition, there's an entrance directly into the Mall just as we have it now, within the eXisting Penney building. If you come out sort of the east side, I'll say, of J.C. Penney, that goes right into the interior Mall, and then you have entrances around the three sides. MR. RUEL-So I assume, then, the handicap areas must be adjacent to these entrances? MR. MEYER-Yes. The handicap areas are shown on our layout plans. They meet and conform to all the requirements of the Americans for Disabilities Act, which was enacted two or three years ago. MR. RUEL-Is lighting in the whole parking area, exterior lighting? MR. MEYER-Yes. MR. RUEL-Twenty-four hours a day? MR. MEYER-No. There is security lighting 24 hours a day, but the main lighting goes off about a half hour after the stores close, or the theater closes, as the case may be. MR. RUEL-But some lighting stays on? MR. MEYER-Yes, for security purposes. MR. RUEL-As you travel on the Northway, you look down on the buildings, is that it? MR. BREWER-No. MR. MEYER-No. You basically, you won't, I don't think you'll be able to see, you can glance through in the winter time, but other than that, no. MR. BREWER-You can see the Mall, just see it. Do you have a copy of these notes from Mike Shaw, and Rist-Frost? - 14 - "-- _/ MR. HARLICKER-Rist-Frost, probably not, because we just got those this afternoon. Bill MacNamara from Rist-Frost is here to answer any questions. MR. MEYER-Can we take copies with us? MR. HARLICKER-Yes, you can. MR. MEYER-Okay. MR. BREWER-Just so you can go over these notes and have everything done for next week. MR. MEYER-That's no problem. This is my third go around on this. I did the design originally in 1974 or '77. MRS. LABOMBARD-The southwest corner of the parking lot, that's all new, way up in the corner? MR. MEYER-It's partially new. Some of it exists now. It will be reconfigured both in terms of grades and in the layout. MRS. LABOMBARD-Okay. How close, what's the proximity to the cross country ski trail from the farthest corner there? Because I ski the trails, and I know that we do come kind of close to the Northway, and up pretty much close to the Mall, too. You can walk right over if you really wanted to pick something up in Caldors. I was just curious. MR. MEYER-I don't have that exact figure. I could try to find it. MR. STARK-Cathy, they're not going to move any closer in the back. Do you know where the pump house is? Do you know where the well house is? MRS. LABOMBARD-Yes. MR. STARK-They're no closer to that than they are now. MRS. LABOMBARD-Okay. MR. MEYER-That's correct. MRS. LABOMBARD-Thanks. I appreciate that. MR. MEYER-If that answers that, okay. MRS. LABOMBARD-Thanks, George. MR. PIAZZOLA-I just wanted to mention one thing about lighting. One of the plans for the expansion of the Mall is to revamp all of the Aviation Mall, and as John said, there's something called an Operation Circuit where you have all your lights on, and that's basically when the Mall is open, and a Security Circuit that runs all night long, and that might be half of the lighting in the Mall parking area we'd leave on all night, and the other half would shut off because there's nobody in the lots, but one of the things. through negotiations with these department stores and J.C. Penney is that they want to show off these buildings, and one of our plans, as I said, throughout this process, is to revamp the whole parking area, not just the areas that are going to be effected by this expansion. You're going to start seeing that happen soon. MR. RUEL-How much of an employment increase do you anticipate with these modifications? MR. PIAZZOLA-Based on the fact the old J.C. Penney employs over 150 people, the new J.C. Penney would probably employ even more because, although we're going with an 82,000 square foot Penney's, we have an 88,000 square foot Penney's there now. There's more - 15 - - sales area. So there's probably going to be in excess of 150 people for the new J.C. Penney. In the Mall shop area, you're talking about another couple hundred, two hundred, three hundred jobs, because you're talking ten or twelve merchants. MR. RUEL-So, conceivably, perhaps, four hundred? MR. PIAZZOLA-The Department Store D, when this project is fully realized, again, a 65,000 square foot department store is probably going to be, it will be more high end, and another 150, 200 jobs. So, all totaled, I'd say close to five hundred jobs. MR. RUEL-Excellent. Thank you. MR. STARK-You have an existing road there now that dirt road that runs along the top of that slope. existing road, that's going to be taken out everything? There's not going to be road going Blacksmith Shop now or the pool area? goes up to the Okay. That of there and up toward the MR. PIAZZOLA-That is correct, because that road is a Town of Queensbury right-of-way. We own the real estate that we purchased from the Town of Queensbury. If they want to maintain that road because they need to get to some sort of, I know that there's a water line and also a sewer line runs back there. I spoke with Mike Shaw today about that. If indeed that has to stay open, it will, but our intention would be to close that road off, and maybe do something there where we have a vegetative strip, you could have emergency access, use it as a road. MR. STARK-Okay. Now, your westerly retention pit in the back of your property, okay. It's on the south side of your property. The northwest corner of that is collapsing. It's less than ten feet now from the macadam. MR. PIAZZOLA-This is the two. MR. STARK-Retention pits, the west one in the northwest corner, is cOllapsing, and they tried repairing it a couple of years ago. and it all fell back in again. What are you going to do there? Anything? MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, what's happening is, based on the fact that we're running a lot of stormwater into those detention basins, we're going to have to rehabilitate them to be able to accommodate the stormwater runoff that's going to be coming off these parking lots. We have more parking area. We're going to have the same amount of rain falling in that area, but the runoff is going to be a little bit more, so we're going to have to rehabilitate these so we can bring them up to the standard to meet the expansion. MR. OBERMAYER-But are those in the plans here? I didn't see any work regarding those retention basins. MR. MEYER-Actually, all of the new paving that we're adding will be handled by underground detention, and that's shown on the plans. We're going to have what are called infiltrators. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. I noticed those. MR. MEYER-They are underground storage beneath the parking lot, and it's rather ideal here, because we have sandy soils. So we will be recharging that water into the underground. That's shown on the utili ties plans. So that the new catch basins will be draining from the new parking areas into the underground. MR. OBERMAYER-I noticed, what's this out-fall right here? MR. MEYER-That's an existing out- fall that we designed at the initial construction of this project. - 16 - "- -- MR. OBERMAYER-Does it work? MR. MEYER-Yes, it works. It is an overflow for when the catch basins fill up. For example, in the new parking area closest to Route 9, you'll see a rectangular shaded area and those are infil trators. That happens to be System Number 11. That's on Drawing SP10, and then on SP11, there are a series of rectangles and squares which are these infiltrators, and rather than make the existing detention basins larger, because there will be more runoff, as Mike indicated, as a result of the additional parking, we're doing that in underground basins, and that's the latest environmental technique that's being used on many of our projects. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. Can you get us drawings on that? reference the details. I see you MR. MEYER-We have drawings here. There's more information. MR. OBERMAYER-I don't see the details. It references the details. MR. MEYER-If it's not here, then we'll provide it. MR. OBERMAYER-There they are, right there. MR. MEYER-Okay. It's Detail Number 32 on Drawing SP22, and it's an exact detail of the stormwater recharge galleries that we're proposing. There will be pipes from the catch basins that will go into these galleries. These galleries are enclosed, top and bottom, with stone, and they've worked very well. MR. MACEWAN-Jim, if you have any concerns about it, the Rist-Frost letter addresses it completely, and they don't have any problems with it. MR. MEYER-By the way, that was on our scheme that was approved in 1991 as well, and Rist-Frost did review it in great detail with us, to be able to assure the Town that this was a good solution, and they agreed. MR. STEWART-As I recall, it seems to me the Town Engineers wanted this. They wanted the water put back into the ground, recharged, rather than taking the water and sending it off somewhere else. So this system of putting the water back down through to the ground was really to meet the request of the Town. MR. STARK-On that trail, the pole line, underneath where the power lines go, on the south side of your property, just off your property, when you walk down that road, and you look over towards the back of Caldors and the back of Sears, especially towards the back of Sears, is where your old septic tanks used to come out onto the ground. Now, in the plans you have to, what, fill them up whenever, or just get rid of them, or what? MR. MEYER-Well, we have several choices. They are designed to be structurally sound for the heaviest truck traffic, whether they're full or empty, and normally they're basically empty. MR. STARK-What happens now is you go down there and the ground has turned a grey color. It looks like grey water has come out on there, and the ground is all grey down there, especially in the rain, and it's, right now, I mean, back in the fall, even in the dry time, if it rained, the grey water comes out on the ground throughout there, right on that road. MR. MEYER-In any case, what I wanted to say is that when they are taken out of use, when any sub system is taken out of use typically what is done is they're back-filled with sand, and left in place. MR. PIAZZOLA-The original approval called for those septic pits to be filled as John says, they're back-filled with compacted sand, - 17 - -- --- and half of those pits have already been discontinued, and the other half will be discontinued during the installation of these infiltrators, as well as the sewer line will be running in that direction. So those leach pits will be filled with sand and they'll basically be of no use any more because we'll tie into the Town system. MR. STARK-I understand that. Now, are you going to clean up those retention basins in the back, because there's 18 carts in the east one right now. MR. PIAZZOLA-Yes, we'll do that. We have an easement across that property with NiMo, and the problem is NiMo is very sensitive about anybody working underneath those power lines, and we've been trying to get to NiMo and work with them, but, again, when you work with NiMo, sometimes it's a slow process, but before we can, the long and short of it is, before we can get into those retention basins with people, we need NiMo approval, and we're pursuing that right now. MR. STARK-Fine, because I go back there, and it's a real dump back there, people are throwing tires over the bank and the trees are washing in because the slope is coming back, and especially behind Caldors entrance. MR. MEYER-Before this is all completed, that will be renovated. MR. STARK-Fine. MR. MEYER-Any other questions? MR. HARLICKER-I have just one, regarding how are you going to tie in the new parking area into the old? Are there any plans on doing any work in the old parking lot, resurfacing, or maybe, I noticed you've got a lot of landscaped islands in the new area, maybe expanding that landscaping into the existing parking area? MR. MEYER-Well, we're limited on what we can do because existing operation and so on. Wherever rehabilitation existing lot needs to be done, that will be done, as far development, and as far as what we're doing. Obviously, adding a lot of landscaping. of the of the as the we're MR. HARLICKER-Yes, and no chance of landscaping, I noticed there's minimal parking lot. getting any amount in the of that existing MR. MEYER-What was provided originally there was landscape control for traffic control, so that we didn't have traffic criss crossing the lot. Back in '77, there was a lot of discussion, and there always is a lot of discussion. The trade off's between putting smaller planters within the parking lot or the longer landscaped islands such as we have in the front, and it was decided at that time to provide the larger islands with the landscaping. MR. BREWER-Scott, there's not a public hearing on this when we do this, is there? MR. HARLICKER-No. I don't believe there's one scheduled. MR. STARK-They are on the schedule for the first meeting in March, and they're seeking approval for this at that time? MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. STARK-Okay. Do you want to go over it and address each person on the Board and see if they have any concerns now so they can answer them now? MR. BREWER-That's what we're here for. - 18 - "- -.." MR. STARK-I don't have any problem with it. MR. BREWER-I would just like to see that Mike Shaw's comments are taken care of, and Rist-Frost's. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. So you'll probably also be receiving comments from Tom Flaherty. I spoke with him today, and his main concern seemed to be the timing of tying in with the water and getting the work done. I guess there's a very limited time frame in which that can be done. MR. BREWER-If you don't have any objection, there's three people here in the audience who have been sitting here, and I'm going to ask them if they want to ask any questions. I'm going to let you. You're welcome to if you want to. BILL RICHMOND MR. RICHMOND-I'm Bill Richmond. I'm a reporter with the Post Star. I was just wondering if these changes (lost word) change the price of the renovations, or what the latest estimate is for the cost. MR. PIAZZOLA-The budget to construct a Sears expansion, a Department Store D, a new J.C. Penney, which was fixed in '91, has basically increased with the rate of inflation. The fact that we're taking, essentially, Sears expansion, which is a department store, and moving it one place to another, doesn't really effect the cost of the construction. Costs have increased. Materials and manpower. everything else has increased, but the cost that was put together in 1991 to complete this expansion has basically stayed the same, and they haven't increased, because we're not increasing anything. As a matter of fact, as John pointed out, we did a small decrease in gross leasable area, but because we're not expanding, we're contracting, to a great degree the cost has essentially stayed the same. MR. BREWER-Okay. You think the final phase of the construction will be done before Thanksgiving, hopefully? MR. PIAZZOLA-I think what will happen is that we will have a new J. C. Penney and some new Mall shops for Christmas of ' 94. The problem is, no Mall developer andlor department store is going to want to see construction impact Christmas sales, and, again, we want to keep that parking field open as long as we possibly can for the '94 holiday season. So I don't see anything, in the foreseeable future, happening with this Department Store D pad until probably the end of ' 94 or early , 95, and that's just a function of the logistics of doing all of this, and getting this open for the holidays of '94, and then trying to get that done. I just think that's a lot for anybody to swallow, but again, as I said, we're in pretty strong negotiations with a couple of 65,000 square foot tenants for early '95. MR. BREWER-Great. MR. OBERMAYER-When would you start construction on the J.C. Penney store? MR. PIAZZOLA-March 16th. MR. RUEL-I assume you will be using local laborers as much as possible? MR. PIAZZOLA-As much as possible. We have a couple of bidders, with local contractors, and the cost of using local contractors, obviously, the cost of doing it locally, is beneficial to us, as a big developer, because we don't have to pay for people travelling from Syracuse, Schenectady, Albany, Rome. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anything else from anybody, pertaining - 19 - '- to this? MR. PIAZZOLA-To hit Scott's point, I have spoken with Tom Flaherty. I spoke with Mike Shaw today, and they expressed what their comments were on this plan, and we're going to work, between now and next week, to get all of those comments incorporated. MR. HARLICKER-So hopefully we'll have a letter from them saying everything's, they're happy with everything. Okay. MR. BREWER-And you will, is there any possibility you could talk to Paul Naylor and see about some kind of a traffic plan for those trucks? MR. PIAZZOLA-Yes, I could do that, and again, that brings up another point, Tim, while I have your attention, here. We are, we understand that this intersection, 254 and 9, is a problem for all of us, and I've spoken with the partners who own this mall, and we're more than willing to sit down and discuss any type of traffic option for this entrance to the Mall. As Bob pointed out, and he's got a lot more history on this project than I do, we only control maybe 20 or 30 or 40 percent of what you ultimately need to make a connection somewhere on Glen Street, but as I stand here representing the owners of the Aviation Mall, I can tell you we'd be glad to sit down and talk OVêr any traffic plan, and I spoke with Jim Martin on a couple of occasions about the conceptual idea, but we'll also sit down and look at it in more detail. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. PIAZZOLA-I want to thank you for your time MR. BREWER-That's it from anybody on the Board? I thank you for coming out and sharing your project with us. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Timothy Brewer, Chairman - 20 -