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1994-03-31 SP "~ QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING MARCH 31ST, 1994 INDEX ROUTE 149 CORRIDOR STUDY 1. Discussion of Aviation Mall Sand Hauling Schedule 34. THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY ADOPTED MINUTES AND ARE SUBJECT TO BOARD AND STAFF REVISIONS. REVISIONS WILL APPEAR ON THE FOLLOWING MONTHS MINUTES (IF ANY) AND WILL STATE SUCH APPROVAL OF SAID MINUTES. QUEENSBURY PLANNING BOARD MEETING SPECIAL MEETING MARCH 31ST, 1994 7:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT TIMOTHY BREWER, CHAIRMAN GEORGE STARK, SECRETARY CRAIG MACEWAN CATHERINE LABOMBARD JAMES OBERMAYER ROBERT PALING ROGER RUEL EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR-JAMES MARTIN PLANNER-SCOTT HARLICKER STENOGRAPHER-MARIA GAGLIARDI ROUTE 149 CORRIDOR STUDY MR. BREWER-The way the meeting will run, Scott's going to give us a short presentation, get everybody up to speed, then we'll take public comment, then we'll have comment from the Board. I would just like to ask that comments be limited to five minutes the first time around, because there are a lot of people here, and I'm sure that everybody wants to speak, and then we'll go around a second time, but to keep it as short as possible, I'd please like to limit the comments to five minutes the first time around. Okay, Scott. MR. HARLICKER-Okay. The Town requested that the Planning Department do a study of Route 149, chiefly because there were a number of requests for re-zonings, an increased concern about traffic and other concerns that residents of the area raised. Last year the Planning Department initiated the Study and examined the following. One of the things we looked at were existing conditions, development patterns, things such as building permits issued, variances issued, site plans and subdivision approval s, just wherever along the route these permits were issued. The second items we looked at related to environmental factors, things such as wetlands and water resources, slope, soil types, as it relates to permeability, depth to bedrock, and high water table. These environmental factors do have an impact on what sort of development can take place along the highway. It restricts it somewhat. Land use patterns were also looked at. As you can see from the maps, existing zoning, more than 75 percent of the Route is currently zoned residential, whether it be Rural Residential Three acre or Five acre, or Suburban Residential One Acre. Approximately 50 percent of the parcels along the Route are actually used as residences. Also, a large amount of the land is vacant or currently not developed to its capacity. Traffic was the fourth item that we looked at. DOT supplied us with accident counts for their highway. We also received some rudimentary traffic counts from various agencies. It's difficult to do a detailed traffic study because valid, up to data is lacking on the road right now. There was also public participation. A survey was sent out to all the property owners. Approximately 36 percent returned the surveys, and there was also two public hearings held last year. On the table up here were a summary of the recommendations that were a result of the Study, and I'd just like to go over several of the key recommendations, and then open the, for public comment. The first recommendation I'd like to go over briefly is a recommendation of a creation of a new Rural Commercial zone. This would take the place of the existing Highway Commercial zone at the intersections of Bay Road and Ridge Road. It would be an enlarged zone. The minimum lot size would be one acre, with 5,000 square feet of commercial development per acre. The second was creation of a new residential zone, Rural Residential One Acre. - 1 - '-- This new Rural Residential Acre would function along the same lines as the existing Rural Residential Three Acres, only allowing one acre minimum lot sizes. The area that was re-zoned for this is primarily between Ox Bow Hill and Bay Road. Currently this property is zoned Rural Residential Three Acre. There is also a zone change of the existing Rural Residential Five Acre, between Bay Road and the Golf Course property, from Five Acre to a minimum lot size of Three Acre. There's also a suggestion that the Town insti tute a Town wide minor subdivision regulations for subdivisions of four lots or less. This would cut down the process somewhat. Currently a subdivision has to go through three phases, Sketch Plan, Preliminary, and Final Subdivision approvals. This would means that lots of four lots or less would go through a one step approval process. Clustering is also recommended where environmental constraints limit development. The main impact on this would be, probably, in the Rural Residential One Acre zone. There's also a suggestion of the adoption of a definition for Home Occupation, Rural. Rural Home Occupation would be similar to the existing Home Occupation. It would allow development at a slightly more intense scale than what's currently allowed in Home Occupation. It would allow use of existing property for Home Occupation up to 800 square feet or 40 percent of the Gross Floor Area of the existing principal dwelling. It would allow some signage, up to nine square feet, and uses would include small scale crafters, sewry and woodworking and art-work, small scale repair work, such as appliance, bicycle, tool sharpening, and individual instructions, such as musical and dance. As most people, I think, are aware of, there are also plans for reconstruction of the roadway. On the table up here are a copy of DOT right-of-way maps that DOT supplied to us. We don't have enough copies to hand out to everybody. There's one copy of each map and it covers the entire length of the road, from Route 149 out to Ridge Road. Currently, the reconstruction plans include 12 foot wide travel lanes, 8 foot wide shoulders, and up to a 30 foot clear zone on either side of the roadway. We have some information here regarding a time frame for this reconstruction. Sqoping would be taking place this year, '94/'95. Preliminary engineering and some right-of-way information would be taking place in '95/'96. Design and right-of-way, I don't know if it would be acquisition or just checking out just to see what sort of right-of-ways would be needed in ' 96 and ' 97 . Then actual construction would be during the '97/'98 season. Along with this reconstruction, we'd like to see the ability to construct a bike path along Route 149, not necessarily the actual construction, but leave enough room for the construction of a bike path along the road. One other primary suggestion or key recommendation would be the utilization of a PUD designation, which is a Planned Unit Development. This would allow a mixed use type of development, both commercial and residential. An appropriate zone, we believe, might be the quarry area at the eastern end of the corridor that is currently zoned Land Conservation 10 Acre. That's a brief overview of the key recommendations. Like I said, there's sheets up here. There were 18 of them that were included in the plan, and I'd just like to open up the floor for public comment. MR. MARTIN-And we also have some letters that were received also. MR. BREWER-Right. Maybe we should read those in first. I've got one from Mr. Whelan and Mr. Aronson. I also received one from Jim Weller. Okay, George. MR. STARK-Okay. There's a letter to Mr. Tim Brewer, Planning Board Chairman, "Dear Mr. Brewer: I've received the "Addendum To The Route 149 Corridor Planning Study" and offer the following concerns and comments for your consideration. Page 43, third and fourth paragraph. If a dimensional buffer is incorporated into the regulations it needs to be defined in detail. The BUilding Department, for projects not requiring site plan review, and the Planning Board, for projects requiring review, should not be left to interpret an ambiguous regulation. The terminology for the - 2 - buffer should be consistent. Currently it's referred to as "dimensional buffer" and as "screened buffer". The buffer will impose a hardship on commercial enterprise since most businesses do best when they are visible from the highway. The character of the corridor can be maintained and enhanced with appropriate setbacks and landscaping without the use of buffers or screens. The placement of parking behind buildings is not a good idea. Parking should be allowed wherever it best suits the utilization of the property. Parking behind buildings, in many cases, necessitates additional paving and a reduction of green area to gain access to the parking areas. Generally the main entrance to a commercial bUilding is located with visibility from the parking area. With main entrances on the rear of the buildings the view from the highway will be the back of the buildings. Many additional suggestions on this page are ambiguous and, as such, should be clearly defined so that compliance and enforcement does not become arbitrary and inconsistent. Page 44, second and third paragraph. Cluster provisions should be an alternative, and not a requirement for development of a subdivision. The definition of cluster development should include Townhouses, Condominiums and Mul tifamily type structures. Page 45 The first paragraph reads in part "By providing access by a means other than directly from Rt. 149 a developer could earn a density bonus". This appears to be a reasonable provision, however, it needs to be defined with a formula and incorporated into the proposed regulation on Page 52. Page 46; 1, Policies - Item b Preservation of the agricultural character is inconsistent with the proposed residential and commercial development. I suggest the following. Preservation of the rural character of the corridor consistent with residential and commercial development. Page 46;2 - Strategies - Item c I don't understand the meaning of "Residences should front directly on off- site streets". What are off-site streets? Page 47;3 - Strategies - Item h. The provision is ambiguous and arbitrary. The limits of the building envelope should be defined in the regulations. The decision of "suitable areas" should be left to the developer consistent with the regulations. Page 47;4 - Strategies - Item b Same response as for Page 43, third and four paragraph. Page 47;4 - Strategies - Item d. Suggestions for architectural design are a good idea, but they should remain just that. Architectural design should not be a regulation imposed by the Building Department or the Planning Board. Page 47; 4 Strategies Item f. Same response as for Page 43, third and fourth paragraph. Page 48 Recommendations - Item 5 I don't understand how it was determined that a new highway parallel to Rt. 149 is a "severe environmental impact on the region". Before such a recommendation is made, an Environmental Impact Study should be undertaken to fully understand the impact of various alternatives. Page 48 Recommendations - Item 10 Seeking architectural appropriateness is a good idea however it should remain just that. Architectural appropriateness and design should not be a regulation imposed by the Building Department or the Planning Board. Page 49, Recommendations Item 18. Construction of a bike path along Rt. 149 is a good idea. However who is going to develop and implement such a plan? Has its feasibility been investigated? I would suggest that the regulations on Page 52, 53, 54, and 55 be rewritten in consideration of the above comments and additionally that consideration be given to the fOllowing: Page 52 Nonenclosed decks should be limited in size to a percentage of the size of the principal structure and should be allowed as an accessory use for all permitted and site plan review uses. Page 53 The number of units for a Motel/Hotel use should be limited only by the building area limitations of 5000 S.F. per acre. Page 54 - A Clustering should not be required, it should be encouraged and permitted. Page 54 - D(l) Permitted uses should include Duplex Residential Dwelling. Page 54 - D (3) Site Plan Review Uses should include Cluster Residential Dwellings. Thank you for the opportunity to comment on this important study. Sincerely, James M. Weller, P.E." MR. BREWER-Okay, George, there is a received in the mail, dated the 30th. follow up letter that I Just read that. It's kind - 3 - of short. MR. STARK-Mr. Tim Brewer, Planning Board Chairman, "Dear Mr. Brewer: My letter of March 25th, 1994 was a technical review of the "Addendum To The Route 149 Corridor Planning Study", and as such does not express my support for the concept of the proposed plan. I'm a lifelong resident of the corridor and own several parcels of property of both commercial and residential land within the corridor. I have lived at my present location on Rt. 149 for the past 29 years and I have invested significantly in my various properties always following the constraints of the zoning regulations. I am 100 percent supporter of the proposed re-zoning plan and as such am opposed to any commercial development within the proposed residential zones. I ask that you give consideration only to technical revisions that I and others might suggest, and that you adopt a plan, generally, as currently proposed. Thank you for giving consideration to my concerns. Sincerely, James M. Weller, P.E." MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. Cathy, do you want to read the next two? MRS. LABOMBARD-This letter's from John Whalen on the Farm-to- Market-Road, Lake George, NY, to Tim Brewer, Planning Board Chairman, clo Planning Office, Queensbury, NY "As a property owner of 70 acres along Route 149, between Bay and Ridge roads, I would like to comment in regard to the March 31st, 1994 meeting on the Route 149 Corridor Study. In the proposed rezoning, quite a few large parcels of land west of Bay Road which are currently zoned RR-3A, have been rezoned to RR-1A. However, my property, which is currently zoned RR-3, has ~ been increased in density to RR-1A. I request that my lands also be rezoned to RR-1A. A study of the data in the Route 149 Study covering depth to bedrock, percolation rates, water table, and slope show that most of my land has a high to moderate suitability for development, and should have few constraints going to an RR-1A zoning. DATA Depth to Bedrock - greater than 60". - High SUitability for development. Percolation Rate - 0.6" to 2". - Moderate suitability for development. Water Table - greater than 72". - High suitability for development. Slope - 30 to 80, 80 to 150 High to moderate suitability for development. Sincerely, John Whalen" And this letter is from Benjamin Aronson, on Star Route, Queensbury, to the attention of the Queensbury Town Planning Board "Any effort to rezone Rt. 149 that would increase its present use or add more exit-entrance would be detrimental to anyone using this already overburdened roadway. Al though I do not reside on 149 I am close enough to hear the constant sirens of rescue vehicles & have witnessed much misery due to this road's inadequacy & overuse. Personal interviews with Law Enforcement Personnel state they hate to even patrol this road & avoid it when possible. Improvements will only cause higher speeds & more severe accidents. The logical solution to alleviate the load here and also the congestion on Rt. 9 between Exit 20 & 149 would be to start from scratch & come off Exit 17 with a 4 Lane Northway type road & meet the Vermont Turnpike going possibly along the Barge Canal & there abouts. This would also relieve another death trap Rt. 4! Roads are for getting from one place to another. I would hope that logic would prevail over politics & greed. Ben L. Aronson" MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. George made a suggestion. When you come up, please state your name and, if you would, please give us the zone that you are currently zoned, and the zone that's proposed for your land. MR. HARLICKER-I'd just like to make one note, before we start with the public comment. The actual implementation of recommendations of the study will be done by the Town Board, not the Planning Board. Tonight is just, the Planning Board is here to adopt the resolution, either as is, or with modifications, or decide not to adopt it. It will be the responsibility of the Town Board to - 4 - implement any of the suggestions found in the plan. MR. BREWER-Okay. Would anyone care to speak? GEORGE RYAN MR. RYAN-I've got one comment. I like the bicycle path, but unfortunately I work all day. So I'd like to put lights in it so I could ride my bike at night. That's one thing. The next thing is, I'd like to see this whole thrown right out the window. We're putting the cart before the road. Lets let the road get in, then rezone it. They're going to take 30 feet, some places aren't ~ going to be there! I might be one of them. So why are we studying this now? Lets let the new road come through, see where we wind up, and go with it. I'd say that we throw the whole thing out the window, quit while we're ahead. Maybe we should take a vote of the people, and see what the people say. MR. MARTIN-I just have one question for Mr. Ryan. with your SR-1A zoning? Are you happy MR. RYAN-No, because I'm on a commercial road. My kids can't play in the front yard, they'll get run over by tractor trailers. They can't play in the backyard, they'll get hit with golf balls. MR. MARTIN-So, George, the short answer is, no. MR. RYAN-I've been there for 20 years, and I've been doing okay. What the hell's another 10, until they fix this road? I don't foresee it's going to happen. MR. BREWER-Okay. Who's next? MAC COFFIN MR. COFFIN-Mac Coffin. What the zoning is, I think they've done a real good job in trying to make this thing. MR. BREWER-What zone are you in now, Mac? MR. COFFIN-RR-5. They want to change it to, anyway, they're going to border us with this new Rural Commercial. This is all a good idea, but you're bumping a Rural Commercial up against the Residential in an arbitrary position, as far as my personal one is concerned. You have to stop it some place. That would be my only major gripe, but I agree with George. This traffic study, we're using old studies that were done in off seasons, for usage of that highway. Anybody who's lived on that highway, which Jim Martin is one, knows that the highway is a disaster. The first thing they've got to do is fix this highway, before we even consider any more commercial development on it, and once the commercial development is considered, I think it should be more restricted to areas on those intersections and not drifting off arbitrarily on different intersections and ignoring some. I guess that's all of mine. I'll give the rest of my time to the Martindales. ROBERT MARTINDALE MR. MARTINDALE-I'm Robert Martindale. I'm currently in an RR-3A zone. They're changing it to RR-1A. When this study first came about, I thought the original intent was to give the people what they wanted, and the questionnaire they sent out was very vague. I think that the main issue here is if the people want commercialism on this road or if they don't want commercialism on thi s road. I think you should send out one more survey to everybody and ask direct questions rather than very vague questions. It leaves a lot of gray area. Just ask the specific question is, do you think that commercialism should be allowed on the whole road, and not segregate different areas. Just come out and ask it, and then you could take a count and everyone will know - 5 - ',-- ~" what they want. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. PAT BALDWIN MS. BALDWIN-My name is Pat Baldwin, and I'm here on behalf of Torrington Industries. They're currently bi- zoned in the one parcel that they do own, and there's a concern with that, because the tax assessment has it assessed as commercial property, yet they're currently zoned as Highway Commercial and SR-1A. The proposal would make them a tri-zoned parcel, and what they're asking is that you reconsider the boundary to the zoning, in particular, to make it more consistent with their ownership of that whole parcel. Do you know which parcel it is? It's the one right on the corner of Ridge and 149, on the south western corner. Part of it is Highway Commercial and part of it is SR-1A. MR. BREWER-Okay. So, if they changed that to RuC-1A, it's going to be part RuC-1A and SR-1A. MS. BALDWIN-Right, and the Highway Commercial is being done away with, probably, is what you're saying? MR. BREWER-Correct. MS. BALDWIN-Okay. They would like to preserve the commercial, because it is an industry. It's a commercial owner. They're interested in preserving the commercial use of that property. MR. BREWER-So they'd like to stay Highway Commercial? MS. BALDWIN-Yes. MR., BREWER-Rather than the Rural Commercial. MS. BALDWIN-Yes. MR. BREWER-Have they looked at the Rural Commercial uses? MS. BALDWIN-Yes. It doesn't really suit their purposes, when they purchased the land, and it's my understanding that there's an active landfill, an active mine, that are adjacent to it, across the bridge. So it's not inconsistent with the present uses. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you very much. Anyone else? FRANK ROLLO MR. ROLLO-I'm Frank Rollo. I have Highway Commercial One Acre, adjacent to Len and Peg's, and it wants to be changed to Rural One Acre. This discussion has been centered around 149 becoming all more commercial. I was wondering what the reasoning was behind taking one commercial area and devaluating it with the Rural Commercial. I don't know exactly what the further restrictions would be, but I understand that it is more restrictive. MR. BREWER-It eliminates some of the uses that are in Highway Commercial, is basically what it does. MR. ROLLO-Right, and as such, potentially, will reduce the value of the property that I, the vacant property that I own there. So my request would be for the existing Highway Commercial to stay Highway Commercial. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? CHRIS SCHUH MR. SCHUH-I just have a question, more than a comment, on the, - 6 - - ----. Chris Schuh. I just had a question on your Town wide change in your Minor Subdivision Regulations that you propose for subdivisions of four lots or less. Is there a Statute of Limitations in the framing of those four lots? If you have a 100 acre piece and you cut it into four lots, and I'm left with a 50 acre piece, can I re-cut those four lots in some time period? Does that go on forever? MR. MACEWAN-That was a question that I had, too. MR. MARTIN-Go ahead, Tim, and we'll get an answer. MR. BREWER-Okay. DICK KILMARTIN MR. KILMARTIN-I'd like to know whatever happened to government of the people, by the people, and for the people, Q.y the people? Whatever happened to that? All of a sudden it's two or three people wanting to do it. I want to know what happened to the government of the people, for the people, and by the people? MR. BREWER-Dick, I think what happened here is some people came in to the Planning Office or to the Town Board and asked for their land to be rezoned, okay. So our planners, with the goodwill of the Town Board, were asked to come up with a plan, okay. They came up with a plan. This is the plan that's in front of everybody. We're here to take input, to make changes, to not do it, to do it, to make changes for what the people want. They sent surveys out. A lot of the people did send them in, a lot of people didn't send them in. They're doing the best they can. That's all I can tell you. I mean, nobody's perfect, Dick. I mean, we're trying to do the best we can for the people that live on that road, that own property on that road. Just because this is proposed in front of us doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be that way. That's what we're here for. I mean, everybody's in here, or some people are in here ready to cut out head's off, and we didn't do anything. We're asking for input. MR. KILMARTIN-I agree with you, but wait a minute. George Ryan had the right idea. Let the highway get built first, and then do something. MR. BREWER-Okay, and then what happens if the highway doesn't get buil t, Dick? And then what happens if you want to sell your property and you want to build something commercial on it and the Town doesn't like it and you come in here screaming and hOllering because we won't let you do what you want to do? MR. KILMARTIN-They've got me tied up right now so I can't do anything. MR. BREWER-Well, we're trying to help you. MR. KILMARTIN-I've been trying to sell a lot for over a year, and this Town has got me tied right up so I can't do it, and if some of these people that knew, that sit up here, not necessarily you people, right there, but some of them are in the audience, right now. If they knew how to read a deed, and a survey, they would understand where I'm coming from. MR. BREWER-Okay. I understand, but. MR. KILMARTIN-These people have got to be schooled. know how to read a deed. ~ can read a deed. They don't MR. BREWER-Okay, Dick, we're trying to help you. Lets work together. Lets not argue, and I don't mean to get mad and raise my voice, but, lets try to work together and get the thing done the way the people want it. That's what we're here for, and I don't - 7 - "-- ...-r think we should take a lot of abuse because we're volunteers trying to help you people, and I'm speaking for everybody. I think you should try to help us, not try to argue with us, no matter who comes up, okay. MR. KILMARTIN-I hear you, but what I'm trying to say is, now, I've got a lot of property over there. You know I do. One of my neighbors, two of my neighbors, three of my neighbors, or a guy across the road, he's still a neighbor, no matter how you look at it. If I try to do something, they're all up here trying to stop me, and I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I bought this property 35 years ago for a retirement purpose. Lo and behold, I've still got it. I can't sell one acre off from it. I can't sell 10 acres off from it, because of the way it's set up. The Town done it. I was working nights, and they were holding all these meetings, dammit, they never sent me any notice they were holding all these meetings on the rezoning and all this stuff, and what could be, I've got five sons I can't even one of my sons a building lot. Now, imagine that. Isn't that something? MR. BREWER-I understand that, Dick. all, or not? Does this plan help you at MR. KILMARTIN-I haven't seen the new plan that you've got out, yet. I haven't seen it. MR. BREWER-Then how can you sit there and bitch about it? MR. KILMARTIN-I'm bitching about it because of what I read in the paper. MR. BREWER-Okay. and look at it. Well, don't read what's in the paper. Come here I don't mean to raise my voice at you. MR. KILMARTIN-No. You're doing the same thing that I always do. I get upset about it, and I do, but anyhow, what I'm trying to say is you guys are up here. You're supposed to be doing a job, or you're trying. MR. MARTIN-Dick, the plan is the same as the old one you saw last year. It's taking a piece of your property that's on 149, giving it a commercial zoning, and it's taking your density down from five acre to three acre, like it did before, all right, that's what it does over your property. MR. KILMARTIN-All right. MR. MACEWAN-Is that beneficial to you? MR. KILMARTIN-Sure it is. It could be ~ beneficial. You can't satisfy everybody. I know you're not going to satisfy everybody. I can't, you can't, nobody can. MR. MACEWAN-We'll try. MR. KILMARTIN-That RR-3 that he's talking about, there's a lot of wetlands in there, but there's still some good building spots in there. You cut it down to RR-3, now, you're still, there's over 100 acre in that piece of property. They cut it down to 30 lots, that's RR-3. MR. OBERMAYER-What would you like to see it? MR. KILMARTIN-What would I like to see it? I'd like to see it one acre lots, because there is a lot of wetlands in there, and you can't build on the wetlands. You know that as well as I do. MR. COFFIN-Can't he cluster it, though? MR. BREWER-Yes, he can. - 8 - - -/. MR. KILMARTIN-Yes, but 30 lots, out of 100 acres, that's not very many lots. MR. BREWER-I know it isn't. MR. MARTIN-How much of the 100 acres would you say is wetlands, ball park? MR. KILMARTIN-Right off the top? wetlands. There probably is 50 percent MR. MARTIN-All right. MR. BREWER-So you couldn't build 100 lots anyway. MR. KILMARTIN-No. I know that, Tim. where I'm coming from anyhow. I know that, but you know MR. BREWER-All right. Lets stick to this thing here, and I don't mean to shut you off, but I said everybody five minutes the first time around. Lets give everybody a chance to speak, okay. MR. KILMARTIN-Okay. I appreciate it. MR. BREWER-Thank you. MR. MARTIN-To answer the other gentleman's question, the only provision would be that you'd have to go through a full subdivision process, a major subdivision on any other subdivision. MR. BREWER-He doesn't live on 149. MR. MACEWAN-So he could do it once, if he had 100 acres, he could do 100 acres, cut them into four 25 acre lots, then if he wanted to take 25 or 50 of the acres and subdivide that, then he's got to go through the full subdivision process. MR. MARTIN-Right, but there's no time limitation or anything like that. MR. SCHUH-Thank you. MR. BREWER-Is there anyone else that would like to speak? LOUIE MAYER MR. MAYER-Louie Mayer. I have a couple of pieces of property on 149, and right now, everybody knows the traffic's real bad. By making the road better, it's going to be worse. It stops right in front of my house five hours a day, and if you don't do anything, the Lake George Road will be there forever, and ever. You'll never solve the problem by just fixing 149 and not doing anything to the Lake George Road, and making that commercial's even going to make it worse. Putting a bike path down isn't going to kill anybody anyway because they go 90 miles an hour now. I mean, I don't care if you have cops down there, they come, I live in the valley there, just down from George's Boats, 60, 70, 80 miles an hour. I've been hi t twice, and another thing is, what's going to happen to all these houses if you're taking all this land away from everybody, which you'll take by right of domain, and don't want to give nothing for it. and then the God Damn, the road's going to be right up to your doorstep. What's going to happen then? Half these people are going to lose their house, and a lot of these people that live on the road now are not going to be living there a few more years if you build this road. You should build it somewhere else. I mean, leave us alone. MR. BREWER-Let me explain something to you, sir. The Town of Queensbury's not going to build this road. The State of New York is. - 9 - MR. MAYER-I realize that, but they said that 30 years ago when I moved there. I've been there since '48, and they surveyed that 25 years ago, and was going to do a road then. That's when they should have done it. Now they've got all these houses on there, and most houses aren't 40 feet away from the road. A lot of them are only 30. So if you take 12 feet in shoulders, and then you want 30 feet. You'd be right up to your doorstep. You won't be able to have a house there, and it's so bad now it's unbelievable. I mean, in the ski time, it's five hours on Sunday, and Friday night it's all night, and during the summer, it's all day and all night, and in making that road a super highway across there will straighten it out, not only are you going to take a lot of property and homes out of there, you're going to have the rest of us, if none of you people live there, you don't realize how bad it is, but now, you're going to rebuild the highway, right? So, then you're going to have more cars on there, and they're going to be going a lot faster than they are now, and we're having a lot of accidents. We've had several killed in the pond there, drowned right in front of my house, and nine major accidents in two or three years. MR. BREWER-One of them was a good friend of mine. MR. MAYER-That's right, and the point is, you know what I'm saying, once you widen the road, you're going to take a lot of homes, and you're going to force people to, you're going to force them right out of their homes, and the ones that are left, now you've got the road widened and you want so many feet that nothing can go on, so on and so fprth. Everybody's house is going to be, it won't be worth a nickel. You'll have all these people and all this, you know, and I think that we missed the boat here. MR. BREWER-So what you're saying is, you'd like to see it stay as it is? MR. MAYER-No. I think you should put a road elsewhere. You should. You should put a super road somewhere else that goes over onto 4 somewhere, or you should come off of 20, come right off of Exit 20 and go straight across, and skip Lake George Road. MR. BREWER-And then what would happen with 149? We should leave it like it is? MR. MAYER-No. The point is. MR. BREWER-I understand exactly what you're saying, sir. MR. MAYER-You're going to eliminate most of us. You don't live on 149, none of you do, so you don't care what happens to our house, or how much traffic. MR. MACEWAN-That's not true. MR. BREWER-It's not fair to say that we don't care. MR. MAYER-I mean, the point is, where's the traffic going to go? You've rebuilt 149 now, and you made a great highway. Now it still stops in front of my house for five hours a day because you've got a ~ed light at the top of the hill and nowhere's for the car to go. Lake George Road is solid all day long. I don't even go Lake George any more, I go Bay Road. I go the other way, because I can't get out of my yard going towards Lake George. You can't get out. They will not let you out. I mean, I get out of the car and call them.. .move and everything else, and once in awhile somebody will let me out of the yard. That's the truth. I mean, every single weekend it's over Ox Bow Hill, and for hours, four, five hours a day, and so building 149 over is not going to eliminate your traffic problems. It's just going to make a better road. MR. BREWER-Okay. Well, I guess my question is to you, sir, what should we do with 149, shut it down? - 10 - MR. MAYER-I don't know what you should do with it. I mean, if you'd have thought of that 20 years ago, and fixed it then. MR. BREWER-I wasn't up here 20 years ago. MR. MAYER-Well, I know, but we had a Board here, and we had a Town here, and they should have done that before it got so populated and you've got so many people living on there, and when you came up with an Exit, Exit 20, and you realized that that was going to be the main route to Vermont, that's when they should have done something right there, but, no. nobody wanted to do anything then, and now you're going to wipe half of us off the road. A lot of houses, and the ones that are going to be left, the traffic is going to be even worse, and they're going to be closer to your house. You won't hardly get a car in front of your house, to park. Do you think that rebuilding, do you seriously think that rebuilding 149 is going to help the Lake George Road or eliminate that problem that you've got up there now? No, absolutely not, and you could never tell me that it will. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. JAN COFFIN MRS. COFFIN-Hi. Jan Coffin. It seems like the traffic on 149 is the greatest concern for a lot of us that live on that road, and what I'm concerned about is that the Planning Department has told us, they've been very honest about it, that data they have is inadequate for the traffic. They don't know what's going on, as far as traffic is concerned. We do. We live there. We listen to the tractor trailers go back and forth all night long. What I would like to suggest is that before anything gets implemented, they do a detailed traffic study, and they also study what the impact is going to be on the traffic by further commercialization or subdivision, how much is that going to increase the traffic. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Thank you. DICK MEAD MR. MEAD-I'm Dick Mead. I didn't intend to make any comments, but I own property across the road from John Whelan, and I'd love to see the road stay rural, as it is, with no more commercial than is necessary. However, if you do go to one acre zoning, mine is three (lost word) to go to one acre zoning. MR. BREWER-Whereabouts is your property, Dick? MR. MEAD-It's probably right here. MR. BREWER-You're? MR. MEAD-West of the Country Club. I have no quarrel with the three acre zoning, if everyone else stays three acre, but if everyone else is going to go one acre, then I think I should be, too. I would actually prefer to stay all three. MR. BREWER-Okay. Scott, is there a particular reason you didn't choose to change that? MR. HARLICKER-Isn't that five acre right now? MR. MEAD-It's three. MR. HARLICKER-It's three acre, and it remember right, is there a wetlands environmental constraints? I believe leaving those, that area in there. stayed three. Yes, on your property, that was the reason if I some for - 11 - MR. MEAD-There are wetlands right in here. MR. BREWER-On Whelan's property, also? MR. HARLICKER-Which one is his? MR. BREWER-His is directly across the street. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. Because of the environmental constraints in there. That's why that wasn't reduced down to a one acre. MR. MEAD-I think John also owns the land adjacent to mine, on the north side of the road. I think. Some people were going to buy it, about five years ago, and they apparently, by the time they got all the approvals and went through two or three different moratoriums, then they couldn't get the financing, and that was set up for three acres, and it does very nice, but if everyone else is going to be one, I don't think I want to stay three. MR. BREWER-Okay. comment? Thank you. Is there anyone else who'd like to BILL MELLON MR. MELLON-I'm Bill Mellon. I live on top of Ox Bow Hill. I'd just like to say that I'm in the three acre zoning, and I'd appreciate going to the one acre zoning, but I think some of these people have a very valid argument when it comes to the road. I've worked on the road a long time. I know how many accidents there have probably been between the fire department, the rescue squad, and being a deputy sheriff, I've investigated a lot of them, and I feel that is a big problem. I've probably done more duty privately there than I had when I was working, but that's all I would like to say. I do think maybe it might be a good idea to see what the road is doing. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to speak? CAROLYN MARTINDALE MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. Fran and Carol Martindale. We are presently zoned RR-3 Acres, and it will be zoned RR-1 Acre, and we are the Martindales that kind of instituted this whole Corridor Study. We're guilty of that. First of all, I would like to say, I would agree with George Ryan. I would agree with Mr. Kilmartin. The road right now probably shouldn't be even considered for anything other than as is. The traffic on the road is horrendous. The Town admits that it's winding roads, or whatever. They're not listening to the residents, or to the landowners, with this new zone that they're trying to put through the way they are right now. I've made a note of all the comments of the people that applied. I found seven people saying residential, other than Jimmy Weller. He had six properties that were considered. So that would make it twelve, thirteen, one of those was a summer home. People don't even live in the area. So naturally, they're going to want to keep it residential only. According to constitutional law, under zoning, the highest use for a road, for a use on the properties is residential, but when that becomes excessive, which 149 is, the highest use is not residential. It becomes commercial. The complaints you hear before you tonight from the property owners is heavy traffic, not only heavy residential, traffic going through the road, but truck traffic as well. This is why it's a State road designated to become a Federal road. The comments that I would like to say here, too, on the commercial uses, people have said, keep farming, keep agricultural, highway commercial, leave rural, commercial maintained as is. Lets see, highway commercial is appropriate, commercial or residential, take pressure off Route 9, residential inappropriate, commercial, no restrictions. I could give you the tax map numbers on each of these. - 12 - MR. BREWER-No. I think we have them right here. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. The highway will govern everything, reroute the traffic, kill the million dollar stretch, put a safe sensible four lane, again, handle the killer traffic, all commercial uses as long as properties are kept attractive, 149 is a major highway, appropriate, 1,000 foot wide commercial use from the Route 9 Corridor to the City line, or County Line, someone' s pipe dream that this route will be a lovely County Route. It will get worse. Ag with commercial uses, limit to locations adjacent to a major highway, along with residents and recreational, residences commercial, let Martindales do what they want as long as it's done by Code. You find all kinds of comments, and the people that did say residential also, the majority of them said commercial, other than the thirteen that I commented on. I don't think the Town has even taken that into consideration. March 4th meeting last year, people commented on smelly dumps caused from Finch Pruyn. They commented on the heavy traffic on the road. People commented on, don't let children near the road, they're going to get killed. Now, a bike trail, how much common sense is that on a maj or arterial? Heavy truck traffic. You're going to count your blessings that somebody doesn't get killed just from that being the major highway that it is, and the winding road that's stated by the Town Planners. On Page 7 of the March 25th meeting, Scott Harlicker said, we felt there would be a need for some sort of enlarged commercial area at the intersections. It was our beliefs that the commercial zones should be concentrated at the three main intersections. It was the Town Planners belief. They're not listening to what the people were saying here on these little questionnaires that we got. MR. BREWER-Carolyn, the first thing that you said when you came up here. You said you agree with George Ryan. It should stay as it is. So now what are you saying? MRS. MARTINDALE-I'm saying that if it's not going to stay as it is, I'm giving my reasons why the Town isn't listening to the people. Like Mr. Kilmartin says, a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, and they're not listening. MR. BREWER-I guess what I'm asking is what are you saying, you think it should change? MRS. MARTINDALE-I think it should be commercial all the way through because it's not, the way the traffic is, the highest use is not residential. You're getting all your complaints from residents. If you're not going to leave it as it is, the whole road, 500 feet in, should be zoned Rural Commercial. In fact, that's essentially what the (lost word) is doing. I'll get into it with the Rural Home Occupations. People today don't understand zoning. The average person, and I never did, quite honestly, until 1991/1992, when we were hit hard by this Town. It had never effected me whatsoever. Scott Harlicker, on Page 14 of the 149 Corridor Study says, the increase in the number of curb cuts would negatively effect traffic flow in an area that has a history of accidents. They're going to concentrate, the way they have right now, they're concentrating the rural commercial in areas where the heaviest accidents already occur. If you were to spread that out a little bit, we certainly wouldn't have as many accidents, because it would be more of a gentle flow all along the Route. They are totally keeping our petition for the zone change completely out of site. I'd like to bring our Study in that, with the, right here. When we applied for our zoning change, and we finally, I mean, after eleven months trying to get before you, the Planning Board, last November 23rd, almost the end of the year, Betty Monahan and Nick Caimano apparently. MR. BREWER-Please, lets stick with this. MRS. MARTINDALE-That's the two that voted against it. I'm speaking - 13 - on this zoning change, which effects what I'm going to say here. On Page 14 of it, it says, the increase in the number of curb cuts would negatively effect traffic flow in an area that has a history of accidents. MR. BREWER-Right. MRS. MARTINDALE-The property was included in a recently completed Corridor Study. There's been a lot of changes since that Corridor Study was supposedly completed, with the addendum that's now been proposed. FRAN MARTINDALE MR. MARTINDALE-While she's looking, I have a few comments. It says in the Master Plan they want to keep a rural character of that corridor. Can you people tell me anything that's more rural than maple syrup and pancakes? MR. BREWER-Francis, you're talking about a specific piece of property. MR. MARTINDALE-That's right. I am. MR. BREWER-Lets talk about the whole thing. I don't want to get into an argument with you and I don't want to get into an hour conversation about your piece of property. MR. MARTINDALE-I asked you a question. What is more rural? Is houses made out of plastic rural in character, houses put up with more kids going to school? You're putting a thousand houses, easily, on that road, without any trouble by going to one acre zoning. Is that going to add to pollution? Is that going to add to the expense? This is a commercial road from one end to the other. MR. BREWER-Why is it a commercial road, because commercial vehicles use it? MR. MARTINDALE-There's so much traffic and if you want to call it a residential road, wouldn't you find that the people in the immediate area of that residential area would be using the highway the most? If you lived on that road or worked on that road, you would see that you've got more cars from Vermont, New Jersey, and Connecticut on that road than you've got New York State cars. MR. BREWER-I agree with you. Nobody's disagreeing with you. MR. MARTINDALE-That's why I'm saying, you asked why I would say it should be a commercial road. MR. BREWER-The most intensive use on that road is houses. There's more houses on that road than there are anything, Fran, and that's what they're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's what we're saying. The most intensive use on that road is houses, because there's more houses on that road than there are businesses. MRS. MARTINDALE-Because they couldn't put the businesses there. If it was zoned differently, if it was zoned commercial, you'd find that road was commercial. MR. BREWER-You're probably right. MRS. MARTINDALE-That's why there's residences there and not commercial enterprises. MR. BREWER-Okay. So what we're asking you is comments on this Study right here, not your particularly piece of property. MRS. MARTINDALE-It is part of, that's why, there's residents, and - 14 - that's why you have to allow those comments. MR. BREWER-We are allowing comments. I've been to three meetings listening to comments. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. Lets go in to this addendum to the Route 149 Corridor Study. Lets go to the Rural Home Occupation. MR. BREWER-What page are you on? MR. MARTINDALE-54. MRS. MARTINDALE-Rural Home Occupation is the last page, 55. Do you know what a possible 800 square foot, a 20 by 40 building could bring in a residential zone, all along 149, where there's homes? That is, essentially, zoning it commercial, and it's exclusionary zoning, when they're eliminating. MR. BREWER-Certain uses. MRS. MARTINDALE-No. It's exclusionary when you're allowing nothing on vacant land, according to the new. MR. BREWER-Home Occupation is specific uses. MRS. MARTINDALE-And it's discrimination. MR. MARTINDALE-And without site plan. MRS. MhRTINDALE-And without site plan. Hypothetically, right across the road from our farm, there are five, one and two bedroom apartments. Jim Martin stated in December 1993, when thi s was brought before the Town Board, that these tenants, and lets take into consideration there's two bedrooms. So, they could have children. You've got ten adults in the apartment. They could have separate businesses. You've got the owners of the property. MR. BREWER-Provided they have room for it. Do they have room for it? MRS. MARTINDALE-It's allowable, along with this Rural Home Occupation, it's a permitted use. MR. MARTINDALE-It's allowable. nothing to say over it. You, as a Planning Board, have MRS. MARTINDALE-And you didn't say anything over it. MR. BREWER-If we don't have a right to say anything over it, how can we say anything over it? MRS. MARTINDALE-You passed that in December. You passed the Rural Home Occupation, in November, when it came before your Board. You recommended to the Town Board that it be passed, your recommendations. Do you recall it coming before you on November 23rd, 1993? The same night that we were before you for our CR zoning change, that same evening you had Rural Home Occupation. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-And you recommended to the Town Board that it be passed. MR. BREWER-Okay. I'm not doubting your word. MRS. MARTINDALE-Did you take into consideration that a 20 by 40 with 12 people, at the maximum, the traffic that would. MR. BREWER-In the whole Town, that's the maximum? - 15 - MRS. MARTINDALE-No. MR. BREWER-That's what's proposed for the 149 Corridor. That's not what was proposed that night. MRS. MARTINDALE-That ~ proposed that night. MR. BREWER-Eight hundred square feet? MRS. MARTINDALE-Yes. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-And I'm just trying to explain, are you as a Planning Board thinking, or are you just saying, the Town Planner's (lost word) here so we'll agree with it? Have you given thought to it? MR. BREWER-Probably at that time, yes, we did. MRS. MARTINDALE-And you think that 10 people, 12 people on one site, where there's children involved, with two family apartments, where there's two bedroom apartments, and you think that 800 square feet of no site plan review, isn't that heavy traffic, heavy commercial, with no site plan review, on a corner that you can't even see around the bend? MR. BREWER-You're talking about a specific place. talk about. I don't want to MR. MARTINDALE-All right. Take it in general. thing, every home, every home is entitled to occupation, okay. Take the whole residential home MR. BREWER-You're right. MR. MARTINDALE-That's commercialism. That is commercialism for the fullest extent and you, as a Planning Board, will come to a business and say, Mr. Businessman, in order for you to open up, you have to have handicapped parking. You have to have your garbage hidden. You've got to hide your parking lot. You've got all of these stipulations, but yet you're opening up a can of worms. You're allowing everybody on that road that desires to have a home occupation without any policing. You don't know how many people are going to, they can say I'm only hiring one person. You don't know that. You don't know how many people are coming in there. Is there anything. MR. BREWER-Home Occupation doesn't have employees, I believe. MRS. MARTINDALE-Yes. MR. MARTINDALE-It allows one employee. MRS. MARTINDALE-Did you read your rule book? MR. BREWER-No. I'm not here to discuss Home Occupation. MRS. MARTINDALE-It's going to be recommendations. this Corridor Study. It's part of MR. BREWER-Okay, up to a percentage, up to 800 is the maximum. MRS. MARTINDALE-Right. MR. BREWER-So do you think everybody is going to have a house big enough to have 800 square feet? MR. MARTINDALE-We're not talking just about one house. - 16 - MRS. MARTINDALE-We're talking about the whole road. MR. MARTINDALE-Everyone of those people are entitled to have? MR. BREWER-Are they all big enough to have 800 square feet? MR. MARTINDALE-It doesn't have to be 800, it's a business. It is a business. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-With no site plan review. Originally, back before this addendum came through, it was site plan review, and that's where it should remain, if they're going to have it, because you have accidents ready to happen on a killer road. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-Now, when we came before you, November 23rd, you said you as a Planning Board, there were four members that night, Corinne Tarana, she's not a member anymore. You, Tim Brewer, said we had a lovely, wonderful idea for our property, and now is the time for you as a Board, this is what you said to us. MR. BREWER-Carolyn, you're not talking about this. You're talking about a year ago. MRS. MARTINDALE-But I am. MR. BREWER-But you're not, and I'm not going to sit here and argue with you all night long about what you want to do. I know exactly what you want to do. We're here to talk about this Study. MRS. MARTINDALE-You're here to make a recommendation. MR. BREWER-Right. We're not going to' make a recommendation tonight. I can tell you that right now. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. Mr. Brewer says, if this thing is approved, and it's not in stone yet, come here, I'll show you. Your property's here, okay, RuC ends here. There's several owners. They're all your neighbors. If they extended that down to this Mobile Home Overlay Zone, there's nothing so obtrusive in here that's going to create that much commercialism as the zone you're asking for now. So, if you ask the Town, say, gee, this zone is right here, a stone's throw from our land, why can't you extend that? There's deed restrictions. We can't subdivide the land. Include us in the RuC. Don't think anybody's against you, Fran. You've asked all the wrong people because Scott can't tell you what we want to do any more than we can tell the Town Board what we want to do. We make the recommendation. This is quoting from you, at the November 23rd. You have that opportunity now, tonight, to make a recommendation for this zoning, to include that as your recommendation to the Town. I know there's some new members on this Board that haven't seen our conceptual drawing. It includes a pancake house. MR. BREWER-I know exactly what it includes. I'm not going to make a recommendation on a Study that goes from the Fort Ann line to Route 9 because you want me to recommend your pancake house. I have to take everything that's in here, not just your piece of property. That's not fair. MRS. MARTINDALE-That's not what I'm asking you. You specifically said for us to take it before the Town Board. MR. BREWER-Right. Is this the Town Board? MRS. MARTINDALE-Tim, you are here, tonight, for a public hearing to listen to the people who own property on the road and to take their - 17 - ..-.. recommendations into consideration and to, hopefully, if you're not even possibly leave this the way it is. So, if you listen to the people on the road, the people, according to what I started to show you here, did not say, don't let the Martindales have their Rural Commercial. MR. BREWER-No. Everybody that's come up here so far has said they either want to leave it like it is or reduce their zoning. I've written down what people have said. MRS. ~ARTINDALE-They have not said, don't let the Martindales have their. MR. BREWER-No. Nobody has said let them have it either. MRS. MARTINDALE-They have. MR. BREWER-Not a person up here tonight has said let them have it. MRS. MARTINDALE-They have said it at the March 3rd and March 25th. MR. BREWER-All right. Lets not argue about your property, please. MRS. MARTINDALE-But anyway, what I'm saying is. MR. BREWER-Lets not argue about your project. Give me comments on this, and then we'll be done. Okay. We're going nowhere. MRS. MARTINDALE-I did want some of these things explained, because like I said, the average person, until they go to use their land, don't know what they're getting into, and they do want the government off the backs of the people, and under Rural Commercial, E., non enclosed decks for restaurant, club, tavern or bar purposes, Page 52, under Rural Commercial. In a Rural area that we want to keep beautiful, why are we even thinking about having tavern or bar purposes, a deck for tavern or bar purposes. That shouldn't even be considered on a killer road. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-You shouldn't even allow anything that would promote drinking. MR. BREWER-Okay. There happens to be a bar on one of the corners, though, two of the corners. MRS. MARTINDALE-Fine, but this is also making it accessory use, not even site plan. I mean, a lot of things should be taken into consideration if you're a planner. Site Plan Review Uses, on Page 53. Originally, they had agricultural use in there, now they've taken it out. Why not allow agriculture in a rural area? That's what agricultural is agricultural. Why did they take it out? MR. BREWER-They're calling it Rural Commercial. MRS. MARTINDALE-Right, and they're not allowing an agricultural use in a Rural Commercial zone. What's the reason for taking out a totally agricultural use that was there from Day One, before the road was even in or anything, and we started as a cow patch on 149. Why even consider taking it out? MR. BREWER-I don't know. I didn't write it. We'll put it down. MRS. MARTINDALE-It was in the original one, back in March of 1993, and they've taken it out. Lets go to Page 54, Rural Residential zones. Again, that H should go back to site plan review uses. I think we all know the reasons why we're going to have terrible, there already are, Bay Road and Ridge Road, that's where all the accidents, the majority of the accidents happen. That is an APA, where APA is supposed to be more restrictive. The rest of the - 18 - property from, lets say, possibly, where Jim Weller's architectural buildings are, you go towards Route 9, beyond there, that's not APA, and if they're going to commercialize anything, it should~ commercialized where it's not APA, where the uses should be more restricti ve. There's not Town water or Town sewer there, and there's no reason for promoting it in the areas where there's already the heaviest accident count. MR. BREWER-Okay. I've got your comment. MRS. MARTINDALE-Under Site Plan Review Uses, what is a Planned Unit Development, what could be considered a Planned Unit Development, please explain for everybody here, in a Rural Residential zone? MR. BREWER-It's exactly what it says, it's a Planned Unit Development. MRS. MARTINDALE-Well, could you give us some hypothetical cases or some examples, so we could understand? MR. BREWER-Hudson Pointe is a Planned Mountain's a Planned Unit Development. Unit Developers. Unit Development. West Hiland Park is a Planned MRS. MARTINDALE-And they put grocery stores in. MR. BREWER-Sure. MR. MARTINDALE-They put commercialism in that Planned Unit Development. MR. BREWER-Yes. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. Lets deal a little more heavily on this Rural Home Occupation. I'd like some detail on it from the planners. There are people here that don't even understand zoning, like I said, and I think that we have Jim Martin here, and we have Scott Harlicker. I think that people should know, so maybe if they have some more time coming up, let them give their comments, because they don't understand planning and zoning. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-In addition to other Home Occupations in Rural Residential and Land Conservation zones, a Home Occupation is also defined as an accessory use to a customary farming operation. What is a customary farming operation, please define it. MR. HARLICKER-It's a farm. MRS. MARTINDALE-So, like if a parcel of land is zoned Rural Commercial, and without site plan review, under Article, let me just name it exactly, I., on Page 53, Home Occupation, Rural, is defined, is placed there without site plan, you're allowing a customary farming operation without site plan, is that right? Shouldn't that be taken out, and shouldn't it become. MR. BREWER-Say that again to me? MRS. MARTINDALE-I'm saying, on Page 53, without site plan, once again, you are allowing, under I., Home Occupation, Rural, an accessory use. MR. HARLICKER-If a person owns a house, and it happens to be in the Rural Commercial zone, they're allowed to put a Home Occupation in it. That's what that means. MRS. MARTINDALE-Without site plan review. MR. HARLICKER-Without site plan review, just like they're allowed - 19 - to, currently, put in a Home Occupation. MR. BREWER-No, it's not saying agricultural. MRS. MARTINDALE-Yes, it does. MR. BREWER-It says, Home Occupation, Rural. MRS. MARTINDALE-But that's, under the definition of Occupation, Rural, you can a customary farming operation, includes fish, cows, lamb sheep. Home which MR. BREWER-Different types of farms. MRS. MARTINDALE-Customary farming operation, anything that is a customary farming operation, this is what I'm asking. MR. HARLICKER-It already has to be there. You can't. MRS. MARTINDALE-No, no. I'm just saying, under accessory use, it does not have to be there. You're allowing it without site plan review. That's what you're saying. MR. HARLICKER-As an accessory use to an existing farming operation, or an existing house. MRS. MARTINDALE-No. If you have a house there. MR. HARLICKER-Yes, you have a house there. Occupation in it, either Rural or under. You can have a Home MRS. MARTINDALE-Without site plan review. MR. HARLICKER-Correct. MRS. MARTINDALE-So you can bring in kids. You can bring in cows. MR. HARLICKER-That's not listed as a Home Occupation. Home Occupations are defined at the bottom of the Definition, as what's considered a Home Occupation. MRS. MARTINDALE-Scott, look at the top of Page 52. MR. HARLICKER-Accessory use ~ a customary farming operation, not ~ a customary farming operation. If you currently have a farm, you're allowed to put a Home Occupation in there, along with your existing farming operation. That's what that means. MRS. MARTINDALE-So you're saying that somebody that doesn't have pigs there now, or something, then they can't put them on there? MR. HARLICKER-Correct. MR. BREWER-Correct. Here's the definition of a Home Occupation, if you want to read it. Would you I ike to read it? A dome stic service or activity carried on by members of a family residing on the premises, but excluding bed & breakfasts, beauty shops, barber shops, music schools, (lost word) or nursing homes, tourist homes, massage or other establishments offering services to the general public provided there are no signs or no display that will be indicated from the exterior of the building that is being utilized in whole or in part, for any purpose other than that of a dwelling, provided also that there is no stock in trade sold upon the premises on a regular basis, not more than one person is employed, who is other than a member of the family residing on the premises, and no mechanical equipment is used accept such as customary for purely domestic or household purposes. The keeping of not more than two roomers or borders shall be considered a permitted Home Occupation, also small scale crafters, such as knitting, sewing, woodworking, and art-work shall be appropriate uses. That's the - 20 - '- -....? new Home Occupation definition in our Zoning Ordinance. That's in the Ordinance right now. MRS. MARTINDALE-Tim, that is H. MR. HARLICKER-That's currently in effect, and will remain in effect, regardless of what happens with this Study. MRS. MARTINDALE-That is Item H. on Page 53. Now, Item I. MR. BREWER-That is not H. on Page 53. Ordinance. That is in our Zoning MR. HARLICKER-Of the Study, Tim. She's referring to the numbers in the Study. MRS. MARTINDALE-I'm referring to the Study on Page 53, on the addendum is what I. MR. BREWER-Yes, it is, Letter I. MRS. MARTINDALE-So I'm saying, that is under H. The regular Home Occupation that you just read is Number H. MR. BREWER-Right. MRS. MARTINDALE-It's not I.. without site plan review, now, if I were to look at this, on Page 52, if you have a house there, an accessory use to that house would be, I., Home Occupation Rural, which would, just by having a house on the property. it would allow this Rural Home Occupation, a customary farming operation, without site plan review. ' MR. BREWER-No, it wouldn't. MRS. MARTINDALE-Why not? MR. BREWER-Because I just got done reading the definition. MR. MARTINDALE-Read the definition of Home Occupation Rural. MRS. MARTINDALE-Go to Page 55, Tim. MR. MARTINDALE-The new one that they're proposing. MRS. MARTINDALE-That is Letter I. So what I'm saying to you now is, without site plan review, unless I'm. MR. BREWER-Where does it say farm in here? MRS. MARTINDALE-Page 55. This what I'm trying to clarify, so you can get it through your head. It says, Rural Home Occupation, and that is Number I., Page 53 of the addendum. MR. BREWER-Yes, I see that. MRS. MARTINDALE-It says, in addition to other Home Occupations that you just read from that book, which is what is now in effect, in Rural Residential and Land Conservation zones, a home occupation is also defined as an accessory use to a customary farming operation. MR. BREWER-Or a non farm household. MRS. MARTINDALE-Right. MR. BREWER-Read the whole sentence. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay, but this is why I asked Scott or Jim to define a customary farming operation, so these people here could understand. I know what a customary farm operation is, but people - 21 - -- --- here don't. MR. BREWER-A Home Occupation is, so if there's a farm there, you can have an accessory. MRS. MARTINDALE-That's not what it's saying. MR. BREWER-Yes, it is! MR. HARLICKER-Yes. That is exactly what it's saying. MR. BREWER-That's exactly what it's saying. A Home Occupation is also defined as an accessory use to a customary farming operation or a non farm household. An accessory use to a farm, if you have a farm right now, you're allowed to have an accessory use to that farm. That's what it's saying. MR. MACEWAN-In other words, if you sold crafts, you were an artisan. MR. BREWER-You could sell crafts. MRS. MARTINDALE-A customary farming operation, we're agricultural use in the present. MR. BREWER-As it exists. MRS. MARTINDALE-As it exists. MR. BREWER-You could have an accessory use to it, that's what it's saying. MRS. MARTINDALE-Let me read it. I think I have it here. MR. BREWER-I already read it four times. We're getting off track, Mrs. Martindale. MRS. MARTINDALE-No, I'm not. MR. BREWER-Yes, you are. MRS. MARTINDALE-Tim. Let me define Agricultural Use, which is a customary farming operation, according to your current zoning, any management of any land for agricultural. MR. BREWER-Right. So if you have a farm. MRS. MARTINDALE-Raising of cows, horses, pigs. MR. BREWER-I know what a farm is, please. I'm going to end this in a minute, if you don't stop. If you have a farm, you're allowed an accessory use. End of discussion. Please. Let's move on. I don't want to talk about it anymore. We've been one hour arguing, and I don't want to argue anymore. MRS. MARTINDALE-No, I'm not. MR. BREWER-Yes, we are. MRS. MARTINDALE-A customary farming operation is growing vegetables and. MR. BREWER-Right, it is. Nobody's saying it isn't. MRS. MARTINDALE-It doesn't distinguish between it. So if you have a farm, you could bring in pigs. MR. BREWER-Right. MR. HARLICKER-Right. - 22 - '- MR. BREWER-If you have a farm. MRS. MARTINDALE-Which growing vegetables is. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-And this is what I'm trying to get across. MR. BREWER-So, if you have a farm, what's the harm of having. MRS. MARTINDALE-Without any site plan review, you can have pigs. MR. BREWER-That's what farms are for. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. I would like to see, under Home Occupation, if you decide to keep this in, so that you're not using exclusionary zoning, to change that heading to residential land owner occupation. MR. BREWER-Okay. MRS. MARTINDALE-That way, you will not be excluding vacant land which is getting taxed as heavily as residential. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. HARLICKER-Excuse me. You can't have an accessory use on a vacant piece of property. MRS. MARTINDALE-You can if you listen to me. MR. BREWER-You have to have a use on the property to have an accessory use. MRS. MARTINDALE-If you have a farm there, a customary farm use. MR. BREWER-Then you have a use on the property. MRS. MARTINDALE-And you're not going to be harassed by the Town, like we've been harassed, to continue this use. MR. BREWER-Right, you're not. you are allowed an accessory please. Lets move on. If you have a use on the property, use. Now just stop it, will you MRS. MARTINDALE-Will you please let me read this on the way it could be changed to allow? You change the definition to residential land owner occupation, rural, and it would be allowed in any of the Rural zones and the Land Conservation zones. In addition to other Home Occupations in Rural Residential and Land Conservation zones, a resident land owner occupation is also defined as an accessory use to a customary farming operation, or a non farming household located in a Rural area designed for gainful employment involving the sale of goods and services that is conducted either from within the principal structure or customary accessory structure located within 150 linear feet from the principal structure, carried on by members of the family only from the premises and not more than one person who is not a member of the family residing on the premises. The area devoted to the residential land owner occupation shall not exceed 800 square feet or 40 percent of the gross floor area of the principal structure. You don't use dwelling. You use structure, and it's something that is, what the land has always been used for, and it's not a house. Would you please give that consideration? MR. BREWER-All right. I will. MRS. MARTINDALE-Okay. Thank you. There is one further thing. I thought there was supposed to be a separation of the Church and the State, and by having this on Holy Thursday, a lot of people that - 23 - -" would like to attend couldn't attend. Thank you. MR. BREWER-Thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to comment, for the first time? JOHN WALKER MR. WALKER-My name is John Walker. I live on, reside on Route 149. Approximately nine years ago I purchased a piece of Highway Commercial property. I've operated a business, which is in Highway Commercial. I pay taxes in Highway Commercial, and I would like very much to see it remain Highway Commercial. I don't think that it's changing from the intersection at Bay Road and the intersection at Ridge Road, taking away the present Highway Commercial is practical. We've had no problems with it, that !. know of. I've talked with several of the business owners who are in this two particular areas. They don't feel that they should lose their Highway Commercial standings. If you pull our Highway Commercial away from us, you have devaluated our property. With some of us who are soon to enter the age of retirement, this is possibly some of our retirement funds. Now, if you take and jerk them away from us, they're gone. I just feel very strongly that the Highway Commercial should be left. I see absolutely nothing that is taking away from the Corridor, from us being there. We do supply tax revenue to this Town. We have toughed it out over the last 10 years. Nobody has come in and given us tax breaks or anything else, such as this Town wants to do now. It's the least they can do to leave us with the Highway Commercial. I feel very strongly. That's about all I've got. MR. BREWER-Thank you, John. Is there anyone else who would like to comment? MR. COFFIN-You scared me a minute ago. You said, what if the highway doesn't get improved, when you were talking to Dick Kilmartin. That scared me, Tim, and I think that that should be approached. What if it doesn't get improved? MR. BREWER-I don't know, Mac. I mean, I don't really have control over that. That's the State that's proposing to do that, and we all know the State. MR. COFFIN-Yes, I fully realize that. MR. BREWER-They may do it in two years. They may not do it for twenty years, like one gentleman said, they said they were going to rebuild it twenty-five years ago. Here we are twenty-five years later and they haven't done it. I think what all this stems from, Mac, and I've been at quite a few of the meetings, this was asked for, and the Town is trying to do it to accommodate the people on the road, and their efforts, Scott's and Arlyne's, when she was in the Planning room, they've tried to do that. If the people aren't happy, I don't see the Town Board adop~ing it. I mean, I've read it and read it and listened to all the people. They all want their own little niche, to be what they want, but they don't want this guy down here to have it either, and I don't think that's fair. I think if somebody wants to be Commercial here, and somebody wants to be Commercial here, and this guy wants to be residential, I think you've got to consider this man's feelings, and I think that's what they tried to do. Nobody can do anything perfect, and all that I've heard from every meeting I've been at is people bitching because they didn't get what they want. Well, if you're bi tching because you don't get what you want, try to work with everybody, and not just bitch at them. Try to accommodate somebody. I mean, there's got to be a little bit of give and take, and I don't see that happening, and I don't think it's right, and we're getting our balls busted about it, and I don't think it's fair. MR. COFFIN-Well, I apologize. You missed my point. My point - 24 - - wasn't picking on you, Tim. MR. BREWER-No, I know that, Mac. MR. COFFIN-I have all the respect in the world for you, and what Jim and Scott Harlicker have done. My point is the road is what seems to be scaring everybody that's gotten up and talked. Even the Martindales have even discussed this. MR. BREWER-I know it, and they say it's the worst road around here, it's a killer road, but they want to build commercialism on it. MRS. COFFIN-But the point is, a lot of their planning, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're thinking that the State is going to come through and improve this road, right? MR. HARLICKER-Yes, they've allocated 8.8 million dollars for it. MRS. COFFIN-Okay, but like he said, what if they don't ever improve it? How would that effect, what you're going to do now, as far as the zoning changes, would that effect, what kind of impact would it have on the zoning changes you're proposing, if the road was never improved? MR. BREWER-I don't think it would have, impact. It would have some kind of an increasing the density somewhat. really, impact, that big of an because you're MR. HARLICKER-We're increasing the commercial use, but we're decreasing the density that's allowed. Right now you're allowed 12,000 square feet of commercialism per acre. Wi th the Rural Commercial, you're down to five thousand square feet per acre. With the Rural Residential One Acre, if you go over five lots or more, you're into a clustering provision, which thereby also cuts down the number of curb cuts that will be going into Route 149. The Study also encourages the use of interior and connector roads, thereby also reducing the number of curb cuts along the road. So, yes, we're. MRS. COFFIN-It wouldn't impact, if the road is not improved, if the State decides, well, we don't have the money and we're not going to do it, that wouldn't make what you're proposing, it wouldn't change your mind, as far as what you're proposing? MR. HARLICKER-I know exactly what you're saying. MRS. COFFIN-I would think that if the road is improved and widened and that would make a big difference. MR. HARLICKER-I can't say right now. I think it might. In what ways, it might include not enlarging the commercial zones quite so much, maybe keeping three acre zoning instead of one acre to cut down the amount of traffic that's generated. That's possible, yes. MR. BREWER-I think a lot of the traffic that's generated is not generated from 149. MR. HARLICKER-Yes, it's traffic coming through. MR. BREWER-So how do you control it? MR. COFFIN-This was my point. Every curb cut is going to add density. You have more density, more traffic, okay. Now there's a lot of this traffic, like you said, there's nothing you're going to do. There's nothing anybody's going to do until New York State gets off their butt and decides to hook up Route 4 and 87, like they were going to. I've been around long enough to know that, I saw the stakes when they were surveying for that. It went right through Dick Kilmartin's, as a matter of fact, probably, if we went out through there, we could find those stakes, where they were - 25 - - going to put a four lane highway. That never came about. Now there's a little more traffic and a little more traffic. When ~ was a kid, a five year old kid, I walked up to the corner of Bay Road and got the mail. Today, you could never do that. What I'm getting at is, if we're going to add density, add curb cuts, I think we better hold off until we find out for sure that this highway is going to be improved. If the highway's improved, well then there's no reason why Martindales couldn't have a pancake house, because it would be in character with the area. MR. BREWER-Okay. What I'm saying to you, Mac, is if we drop the ball right now and do nothing with this, then there's going to be people bitching because, well, gee, we asked you for a Study and you didn't do anything to it. Now we can't do anything. So, you can't win. Ei ther you win or you lose. I mean, there's no winning. MRS. COFFIN-We're not saying, do nothing forever. We're saying, before you do something, the traffic seems to be a major concern with most of the people that spoke tonight. So, rather than going with the data that we've got, lets get some adequate data. Lets find out what kind of impact is going to be had on the traffic, what the traffic is now, and then we can go from the position of a little more knowledge, rather then, well, we hope this is going to be all right, but we don't know. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. COFFIN-If they straighten the road, you may be eliminating a lot of the people that are sitting here right now. It could be arbi trary, you know. Dick Kilmartin, with the old one, Dick Kilmartin's would have been split right down the middle. John Whelan built his house back off the road, so that he would be off from this Corridor that they were going to put in. I guess the Martindales and us, and Dick's been there for quite a while. We know what the situation is on the road. We aren't 10 years or 20 years. We're talking 40 years, you know, and this thing has never changed. It's just kept getting worse, and if we know, as a Town, I'm not arguing any of the zoning you've done. I think the planning you've done, maybe I don't agree. Maybe Franny doesn't agree, maybe somebody else doesn't agree, but you've worked at it, and we can't say you're trying to hurt us when you've worked at something, but I think that you better really look into this or we're going to have a mess like we've got up there on Route 9 now wi th this Million Dollar Half Mile. Something has to be done there, and I think, as a Town, as a Planning Board, more important than anybody, because you're planning our future, should look into this really closely, and everyone of the meetings these traffic studies are bull, they're out of season. They're just not accurate. They're old. You better look into all of this, in my opinion, and I think from what I've heard, everybody's opinion here. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is there anyone else that would like to comment? ROBERT MARTINDALE MR. MARTINDALE-Bob Martindale. She made a good point. What happens if the road is not changed, and if we go through with what it proposed now, and the road is not changed, I think it's going to be worse than if the road ~ changed, because if you go from three acres to one acre, that means if somebody has twenty acres or one hundred acres, there's going to be more density of housing, and that's going to create more traffic, just because of the houses on the road, okay. So saying that it's going to benefit by changing it to this, if the road doesn't get changed, I don't think that's right. The point that you made is, well, this guy here's got commercial and this guy here's got commercial. The guy in the middle doesn't want commercial. If you made a Rural Commercial zone the whole length, the guy that has a home, that does not want - 26 - - a commercial venture there, does not have to put it there. MR. BREWER-What if a guy's got a home, though, Bob, and a use that's in the Rural Commercial happens to be right next to him, and he doesn't want that. Is that fair? MR. MARTINDALE-What happens? You're going to have a commercial venture anyway, because on your same scenario, we've got three houses in a row. The guy on this side and the guy on this side can still have a commercial venture on a Rural Occupation, and he's still got commercialism right next to him. He can have cars coming in and out, day and night, because that house right next to him can still have a commercial business. MR. BREWER-Okay. I don't want to argue the point with you, but I'm just saying that, you have to take considerations into the whole piece of property, and I don't think it's appropriate for commercialism the whole length of it, because you're going to end up with a Route 9 again. MR. MARTINDALE-No, you won't. MR. BREWER-Sure you will. Do you know what I see happening, and this is just my vision. If that whole road is commercial, it will, eventually, end up being a Route 9, because what' II happen is, the value of the property is going to go up. and this guy's got four acres, and some developer comes in and says, gee, I could put a business there. Lets offer him a high price for it and we'll get our money back in ten years, and that's what happens. You can see it happening right down. MR. MARTINDALE-But the road's not There's a lot of ledges on that road. a (lost word). going to let that happen. How are you going to build MR. BREWER-I'm not saying right tight like it is on 9, but. MR. MARTINDALE-The natural characteristics of the land are going to make it so a lot of businesses can't even go in there. MR. BREWER-That's just mY opinion. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying that's what I think. MR. MARTINDALE-But it's not, that's speculation. that that's going to happen. You don't know MR. BREWER-Right. Sometimes you have to go on your gut feeling. MR. MARTINDALE-I don't agree with that. If you're trying to make everybody happy, you can limit the amount of commercialism on that piece of property, on the whole road, and that's what we did one night. We said, this can go there, this can go there, and this can go there, and that's it. MR. BREWER-What makes YOU right, though? What makes you right to say that this, this, and this and this can go there, and that can't? MR. MARTINDALE-But that's what you're doing right now. MR. BREWER-I'm not doing it. MR. MARTINDALE-You're saying a house can go there and a commercial piece of property can't. MR. MACEWAN-Are you suggesting the entire Corridor be converted to Highway Commercial? MR. MARTINDALE-I don't know if you want it Highway Commercial, but there's a lot of people that live on that road right now that have - 27 - - a house, like Mr. Walker here, if he wants to retire, maybe that is a retirement plan for somebody on that road. You just said that this road, you cannot dictate the traffic, because most of, you said it was a rural road, but the majority of the people that are using that are skiers and tourism. Right? MR. BREWER-Right. MR. MARTINDALE-So how can you say that's a rural road? MR. BREWER-By use, I'm saying it. MR. MARTINDALE-By use, but that use is wrong, because there's rural places on there where people live, but the amount of traffic flow, if you took the amount of rural people, the people that live on that road, make a count of that, versus the amount of people that actually use the road, it's astronomical the amount of people that use that road that don't even 1 i ve on it. So how can you say that's a rural road? MR. BREWER-I'm saying the use of the property on that road, the majority of that use is residential, and it is. MR. MARTINDALE-The people that live there, yes, but not the people that are travelling the road, using the road. The people that are using the road are skiers, tourism, the whole road. So, how can you say that's a rural road? MR. BREWER-It's just a, well, I don't want to argue the point with you. MR. MARTINDALE-Does anybody else see my point here? MR. BREWER-I understand exactly what you're saying, but you don't understand what I'm saying. MR. MARTINDALE-I understand what you're saying, that the use of the road is supposed to be rural because that's what the people are that live on that road. MR. BREWER-I didn't say that at all. MR. HARLICKER-The use of the properties along the road, not the use of the road. MR. BREWER-I said the use of the property along that road. MR. HARLICKER-You're talking the road. He's talking property. MR. MARTINDALE-Right. I'm saying the road. He said it was a rural road. MR. BREWER-No. I didn't. I said the use of the property along that road is residential, the majority of that. MR. MARTINDALE-Right. I agree. MR. BREWER-Okay. So what are we arguing for? MR. MARTINDALE-Because 1. thought we said it was a rural road, earlier. MR. BREWER-I didn't say that. MR. MARTINDALE-Okay. The next thing is, what Louie Mayer had to say, he owns a piece of property right across from that pond. It's proposed, right now, that that would become a piece of commercial property. Am I correct? He is zoned to be commercial? MR. HARLICKER-No. - 28 - - --" MR. MACEWAN-No, RR-3A. MR. BREWER-RR-3A. It's not changing until Ox Bow Hill. That's the proposal. MR. HARLICKER-Correct. West from Ox Bow Hill, there's no proposed changes. MR. BREWER-There's no change. MR. MARTINDALE-There's no change. Recreational Commercial, is that where he is? MR. MACEWAN-Rural Residential Three Acre. MR. BREWER-Rural Residential. MR. MARTINDALE-He's right across, or right by Boat's By George? MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. MACEWAN-Yes. That entire stretch on that side. MR. MARTINDALE-When they expand on these commercial zones, isn't that going to congest traffic more, am I right? MR. BREWER-Probably. MR. MARTINDALE-And if you spread that out. isn't that going to ease traffic? MR. HARLICKER-It'll just spread the problem out along the length of the whole road. MR. MARTINDALE-Yes, but the whole road is going to be used the same way, no matter what anyway. That skier going from Point A to Point B has got to go through there anyway, and if there's commercialism in there, it's going to slow traffic. MR. HARLICKER-One of the reasonings behind there is because there are existing stop lights there, and there's a natural break. MR. MARTINDALE-Do they go 55 on Route 9? They can't, right? Everyone's talking about, this road is so dangerous. If they cut the speed down on the road, do you think the road would be less dangerous? MR. BREWER-Probably not. MR. MARTINDALE-No? If they commercial, and there are there, people are going to slow down traffic? can enforce it. If that whole road is some, some commercial business along expect to stop. Isn't that going to MR. HARLICKER-Not the people just driving through. MR. MARTINDALE-Why? They've got to stop if somebody's pulling in. MR. HARLICKER-Exactly. They'll rear end them. MR. MARTINDALE-Okay. Now, you said, if they're making it from three acres to one acre, you're going to have a curb cut for every house, that could happen? That's going to slow down traffic, and you could get rear ended just as much as if you have a commercial business there. MR. BREWER-Okay, Bob, what's the point? MR. MARTINDALE-The point is, this road is a commercial road. I would like, do you think it's a good idea to send out another - 29 - -.. questionnaire? MR. BREWER-Why not? MR. MARTINDALE-And ask the people on the road, if they, a direct question, not just a vague question, and this last one, there's nothing ever mentioned, do you think that commercialism should be allowed on this road. MR. BREWER-Bob, I don't think, from what's happened here tonight, I don't think this Board's going to recommend to approve this tonight. I can guarantee you, almost, that. MR. MARTINDALE-All I'm asking is send out another questionnaire with a direct question. MR. BREWER-Okay. All right. That's your comments. Thank you. MR. MACEWAN-I've got a question for him. Is that why you feel that the questionnaires weren't an overwhelming response to them, because they weren't direct questions? MR. MARTINDALE-Well, they were so vague. MR. MACEWAN-It was less than 35 percent of the questionnaires sent out were returned. MR. MARTINDALE-A lot of them, if you read one. MR. MACEWAN-I read everyone of them. MR. MARTINDALE-He said it was stupid, whatever floats your boat. Did you read that one? MR. MACEWAN-Yes. MR. MARTINDALE-Okay. Now, I'm glad he sent it in, because that's how ridiculous that this survey was. I mean, they're asking, what's the natural characteristics of this land? MR. MACEWAN-Who better to know that than you, as the property owner? MR. MARTINDALE-Yes, I know, but why don't you ask some direct questions? MR. MACEWAN-They're trying to get a general feel of what the property owners want up there. MR. MARTINDALE-A general feel, but that leaves so much room for gray areas to have arguments about. If you a direct question, do you want commercialism on there, and you had 80 people say no, and 20 people say yes, then I'd have to agree, the majority of people do not want commercialism on that road, but if 80 people said yes and 20 people said no, then what do you think the feeling of the homeowners on that road is? MR. MACEWAN-I don't know. I can't really get a good feeling of what the homeowners said on that highway, because less than 35 percent of them sent back an informational, the first time around. I guess the question I've got for you, if we go and do another informational mailing to them, what guarantees that' we're going to get 100 percent return, or 90 percent, or 75 percent? MR. MARTINDALE-There's been a lot more publicity in the paper about this 149. I think there's been more people at this meeting than were at any other workshop meeting that we had. MR. MACEWAN-And that's good. That's why we have them. - 30 - '- MR. MARTINDALE-All right. Now, if you sent out another survey, I bet you you'll get a better percentage of people sending it back, because more people know about it. MR. BREWER-Okay. Is that it, Bob? MR. MARTINDALE-That's it, Tim. MR. BREWER-Thank you. MRS. LABOMBARD-Can we move to send out another survey? Is that our Department? MR. BREWER-Is there anyone else? MR. RYAN-The problem on 149 is the traffic. So we've got to fix 149. Then we get to the end of 149, we get to Route 9. Did you ever go over there? The traffic on Route 9 is backed up to where? Past Ellsworth's, right? So, we're way ahead of the wagon. We've got to fix that first, and then we'll have the road open. Now the cars, we're going to fix 149, great and dandy, but what are we going to do? We're going to have a wide road and we're going to go down it, we're going to run to Dexters and we're going to stop. MR. BREWER-You're right, George. MR. RYAN-So lets throw this thing out, sit down with a plan, lets fix Route 9, put an exit in or something, then we say, we've got a place for the cars to go, and then it would be a lot easier. Now, we're banging our heads against the wall and everybody's getting upset. If they put a new road in, where are they going to go? MR. MACEWAN-But you're asking this Board, or this Town to take the consideration to fix a road that they don't have jurisdiction on. I would suggest to you to contact your local State representative, and take the initiative to get them going on it, because those are the guys that are going to spend the money. MR. RYAN-They're more interested in the ski slopes over in White Face and stuff, and not 149. MR. MACEWAN-Well, maybe it's time to vote yourself in a new State legislator. It's not this Town's or this Board's responsibility. MR. BREWER-Okay. Craig, lets not argue with him. Who's next? Last call. I'm going to close the public hearing. Now, what do you want to do, Craig? Do you want to consider all comments and think about it for a week and make a decision, or do you want to make a decision tonight? MR. MACEWAN-I don't want to make a decision tonight. I think there's some more input that's got to be put into this thing. Certainly, what's going to happen with this rezoning is hinging, significantly, on what the State does or doesn't do, and I think that's going to be a major aspect to this. I see some things, in the overall plan, that I think could probably be redefined and better explained, and I'd like to see that done first, before I would commit myself to it. MR. BREWER-Okay. Bob? MR. PALING-If we knew the exact DOT plans, or the road was in, I think this would be a much simpler thing to tackle, but right now, I've got too many questions to really make a final decision, one way or the other. MR. BREWER-Okay. I guess what we have to do is we have to put our questions down on paper and get them to the Planning Office. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. Be Specific! That's all I ask. Specific - 31 - -- ~ recommendations and suggestions. MR. BREWER-Roger, how do you feel? MR. RUEL-Well, I can't vote on this resolution. open areas and problems to be resolved. I had Planning Staff. Do you believe that this 149 a rural character on Route 149, as presented? There are too many a question for the Study will maintain MR. HARLICKER-As presented, yes. MR. RUEL-AII right. So, I have some comments about that. that the changes resulting from the Study recommendations implemented by means of modifications to the existing Ordinance. Right? I think can be Zoning MR. HARLICKER-Correct. MR. RUEL-Okay. However, I don't believe this, alone, will maintain the recommended rural character of the area, changing the zoning alone will do it, because you have mentioned strategies and suggestions on about four pages of this Study, Pages 46 through 49, and these are all recommendations and suggestions, and I really can't see how these things can be enforced, and if they can't be enforced, 'then you cannot maintain this rural character of the area. Do you follow me? MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. RUEL-We have a lot of difficulty in enforcing things. These are almost impossible things to enforce. You talk about design of buildings. MR. HARLICKER-Well, those things are things that can be looked at by the Planning Board as various projects come in, guidelines by which you can review a project. MR. RUEL-Yes. You talk about bridges and you talk about guardrails, which means imposing on a Highway Department certain restrictions, and all sorts of recommendations. I can't really see how you can enforce these things, and if you can't enforce them, you can't do it alone with changing the zoning, in order to maintain the so called rural character of the area. That's mY feeling. I also recommend that an Environmental Impact Study be made for a separate main highway, regardless of what the Study recommends. I think you mention that it shouldn't be done. I think it should be done, and it should have some sort of a main highway from the Northway to Route 4, or whatever. I think none of these problems will be resolved until a separate road is in there. There's nothing you can do with that road. You can't just straighten out certain curves. You can't just widen here and not there and spend 8.8 million dollars for what? I think it's ridiculous, and I really don't think anything should be done until at least you have the results of the Environmental Impact Study for this road, or at least, if you know a lot more about what the Highway Department intends to do with the 8.8 million dollars. I think it'll have quite an impact on everything that you're saying in this Study, and no bike path. There are enough people that have been killed, and, personal I y, I'd like to see the Rural Home Occupation redefined. A lot of people had questions about it, and I think it should be redefined a little stronger. MR. HARLICKER-Then come up with a suggested redefinition. MR. RUEL-I probably have many more questions, but I can't vote on it. MR. BREWER-Okay. Come Occupation. Seriously. up with Cathy? a definition for Rural Home - 32 - - MRS. LABOMBARD-Well, due to the fact that three of us are new, and we weren't here for the initial meetings, even though we've read all the minutes of the past meetings, I think it would be a good idea to put a little more thought into something that means so much to you people. I empathize with you. I've lived here all my life. I can remember going to Luzerne from Whitehall and getting into a car accident with our 1952 Studebaker on one of the cross roads. So it was a dangerous road back then. I also think we should honor your request, as to handing out another survey. Sometimes initial surveys, the talk and the publicity isn't there, and I would wager that we'd get a lot better than a 35 percent response the next time. So I would like to make the motion that we do that, and as for the State, and the New York State Government, and the state of affairs we're in, if they've got eight million dollars allocated to build this road, I think that's great, but I won't believe anything until I see some plans and until I see what's going on, and I do think that getting a hold of our local representatives that represent us in Albany would not hurt, and maybe even giving Jerry Solomon a call to put in a good word for us might not be a bad idea either. MR. BREWER-Okay. Jim? MR. OBERMAYER-I'm new on the Planning Board, also, and didn't have the privilege of sitting in on the last meetings. I don't think we can go forward, my feeling is, I don't see how we can go forward with rezoning the area until the Department of Transportation comes up with a viable plan on what to do with the road. The traffic is very bad. It seems to be the Number One issue with everybody in the audience. Certain individuals have personal reasons and financial gains probably from developing their property. I believe that we should look at those certain individual properties, also, and try and help them in getting certain zoning changes to possibly help offset some of those things, but as far as making the whole highway commercial, at this time, or rezoning it, I just, until we know what DOT is going to do, I just can't see that happening. MR. BREWER-Okay. George? MR. STARK-Tim, I'd like to wait until we go on site visits in April. The Board visits some of these different properties up there and then discuss it at our first meeting in April. MR. BREWER-Okay. I think that what we should do is take these minutes, when they're typed, and I think we should have a workshop, the Planning Board have a workshop with the Planning Staff and the Town Board and go over the comments, and see if we can adjust, maybe, some of this plan. I had some comments that I made, to Scott, and I went in and talked to him about them, and I didn't agree with everything in the plan, either, and I understand where all the people are coming from. They want to have what they want, and they want their rights to it, and I agree with that, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere, and everybody can't get what everybody wants. I mean, that's just a fact of life. I think we have to review the minutes, and review everything that we've written down tonight, and come to some kind of an idea what the State is going to do with the road, and once we know what they're going to do with the road, then we can try to tackle it again. That's all my comments. MR. SCHUH-Is there any reason why a State highway planner can't be involved in these processes, because, why should the State make their plan and we make our plan, and then if we start bumping heads wi th the State at that point, why isn't the State brought in sooner? MR. BREWER-The State was brought in for some of the meetings. Joanna Brunso, was she here for two meetings? MR. HARLICKER-Yes. She was here for the public hearings, yes. - 33 - '- --- MR. WALKER-She was at the last one. MR. BREWER-Was she at one or two meetings, wasn't she? MR. MARTIN-She was at one. She was at the second meeting. MR. BREWER-She was at one meeting, and she did make comments and suggestions and talk to the people that were there. I didn't stay for the whole meeting. I was there for a couple of hours, I guess, but I think we should get together with the State, and, like you suggested, and see what their plan is, and are they really going to do that, or are they just saying that to keep us off their back? I think it's important that, I drove up and down that road today, and I can't envision commercial businesses the whole length of that road. I'm sorry, that's just, to me it's overwhelming. I just couldn't imagine that happening. MR. MARTINDALE-One question. About the accident report that said it was about, have they broken that down, I mean, what sections of the road where the worst accidents really are? MR. HARLICKER-No. They've got the mile markers, those little highway posts along the side of the road, and that's how they're done. MR. MARTINDALE-Okay. Is there any way that, if they're all posted, that we can map out an area on that map, showing where the heaviest congestion of accidents were? Because that's something to look at. If there's a lot of accidents in one area, then you definitely don't want to congest that area any more. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. We've already done that. We just didn't put it on a map, but, yes, it's been done. MR. BREWER-Well, one of the places you're not going to be happy with. MR. MARTINDALE-Well, let them find it out, and give us an actual numerical number on how many were at this point, so everyone can know. MR. HARLICKER-Yes. MR. BREWER-Okay. I want to thank everyone for coming out and giving everybody your comments, and we'll be in touch again. We're going to have one more meeting on it, I'm sure. Okay. We have one more item on the agenda we'd like to take care of. MICHAEL PIAZZOLA MR. PIAZZOLA-For the record, my name is Michael Piazzola. I'm the Project Manager and the Mall Manager for the Aviation Mall. Ron Stoddard, who is our Construction Manager, had to leave. The reason I wanted to come here tonight was to read a letter into the record regarding a sand hauling schedule for the Aviation Mall expansion. I'll just read through it and then if you have any questions I'll be happy to answer them. "Honorable Members of the Planning Board, Town of Queensbury, clo Jim Martin, Bay at Haviland, Queensbury, NY 12804 Re: Aviation Mall Expansion Off- site Hauling Schedule Dear Members of the Planning Board: I would first like to express my sincerest apologies for the lack of communication between the Town and myself over the past two weeks with regard to the hauling of materials off of the Aviation Mall si te. I assume full responsibility for this oversight and I welcome you, as individual members and as a Board. to contact me at any time, day or night, should you have a question or concern regarding any aspect of this project. I have provided Jim Martin wi th my home telephone number and have asked that he make it available to each of you. Predicated upon a meeting I had with Paul Naylor, Tim Brewer, and Jim on March 28, I am respectfully - 34 - - -- submitting a comprehensive hauling schedule that we hope you will allow us to follow for the remainder of this project. This schedule was developed with the fOllowing considered as eminently important, 1] to address the traffic concerns of the Town at Aviation Road between the Northway and Route 9, and provide for hauling during periods of least movement along this stretch of Aviation Road, and 2] to complete off-site hauling in a time-frame which reduces the likelihood of automobileltruck conflicts by compressing the hauling into a shorter time period [number of days] than originally contemplated, and concentrates hauling during hours when there is little, if any, traffic. Please be advised that we have been before the Niagara Mohawk Power Corporation since December of 1993 with requests to build a system that will eliminate the eXisting detention basins at the rear of the mall si te. At present, the Pyramid Company 1 Aviation Mall retains easement rights over this property to drain into those detention basins. Our engineering consultant, John Meyer, is now drafting plans for submittal to NIMO which he preliminarily estimates would allow at least 100,000 cubic yards of sand from the project to remain on-site as fill for the detention basins now in existence. Much like the infiltrators that are part of the approved site plan, the NIMO plan will envision the construction of comparable infil trators to replace the detention basins. This will not negatively impact stormwater run-off and in fact, will allow more efficient and better control over stormwater and snow melt than is now taking place. If we are successful in arriving at some agreement with NIMO, the amount of fill which will need to be hauled off-site will be reduced significantly. We have detailed this scenario as the attachment known as "Hauling Schedule B". Finally, the schedule which governs the hauling of the 100,000 cubic yards of material to the Town of Queensbury is incorporated into all of the attachments and reflects the evening hauling schedule I submitted to you on March 15 as much as possible, with some modifications for input from Dan Golusha, Tim Brewer, Paul Naylor, and Jim Martin. We have accelerated the delivery of this material from the March 15 schedule in an attempt to get the materials to their destination quickly and avoid any potential engagement of trucks and other automobiles which could likely happen if the schedule ran until September of 1994. Once again, I ask for your indulgence in making reparation for not communicating to you our intention to begin trucking material off-site on March 21, and I hope you will consider the enclosures and respond to them with your thoughts and comments. I will work diligently with you to address your concerns as you consider this project within the framework of the greater interests of the Town of Queensbury. This is a complicated project, and only with your continued involvement and trust can we at the Aviation Mall eventually call it a success. Respectfully, Michael Piazzola Project Manager Mall Manager Pyramid Company of Glens Falls" MR. BREWER-Haul Schedule A, you've got the Town. That's not a problem. To me, at night, Phase II, before we okay it, personally, I would like to know where it's going. MR. PIAZZOLA-I think what we need to do, in that regard, Tim, if I knew what was going today, I hear the City of Glens Falls is looking for some sand, and now that our Construction Manager is here, we'll be able to find out where it's going to wind up. I think what we need to do is when we want to haul off-site, we need to have a contact person here at the Town that we can call and say, we're going to direct 50,000 cubic yards to the K-Mart down on Quaker Road, and we need to enact the Phase II hauling schedule which would be the hours of operation between 8 a.m. and 3 p.m. for a period of the next 20 days, and just keep you apprised of where that's going. If I knew where it was going today, I would be able to fill in where the destination was, but at this point, the project's just beginning. We don't really know where it's going. Again, if we get NIMO, we'll be able to keep at least half of it on the site, and then take the other half and truck it off-site, some where. - 35 - - '- MR. BREWER-Okay. I guess what I'm saying to you is, you've got a start date of approximately April 1st. Tomorrow's April 1st. You've got to have some idea of where it's going to go, Mike. I mean, you're not going to just start putting it in trucks and go nowhere with it. MR. PIAZZOLA-I think the reason that's April 1st, Tim, is because we don't want to be restricted for day hauling. In other words, if I put May 5th there, then we couldn't move any material off-site during the day. MR. BREWER-I understand. MR. PIAZZOLA-We're going to be completely engulfed with this first 100,000 cubic yards starting April 1st, or a day or two later, depending on what Dave Galosha's plans are, but the first, we've got a 20 day schedule there, essentially, 20 days, Monday through Saturday. That first 100,000 yards is going to take up all of our time. What I'm afraid of is if I say, we'll start hauling during the day at a later date. That restricts our ability to take it anywhere during the day. If the City of Glens Falls says, we need 50,000 yards, and we can only take it during the day, then I can't start hauling that sand until after the Town gets theirs. MR. BREWER-Right. So what, essentially, you want to do is haul 20 hours a day. MR. PIAZZOLA-Yes, and, based on our meeting, and when I spoke with Nick Caimano, who called me about it, his concern was between 7 a.m. and 8 a.m., and then when I met with you and Paul and Jim, the evening rush hour, if you want to call it that, was a concern, and that would be three to seven p. m. So there would be four hours there and one hour there that we wouldn't be hauling. The schedule for Phase I breaks out to 20 trucks and 2 loads per hour. On a 10 yard truck, you're talking about 400 yards per hour, for over 12 hours. So you're not moving, you're running a lot of trucks, but they're not right behind one another. They're spaced out. You've got some down at Exit 18 and you've got some back at the site picking up sand. MR. OBERMAYER-Where are you hauling dirt now to? You're hauling it all day long now, right? MR. PIAZZOLA-Our original plan, and this is where the miscommunication came up, was we gave you a letter, we were going to haul this stuff at night, and I came in to work Monday morning on the 21st and Galosha, because they got different instructions, and that's mY fault, was hauling it during the day. MR. OBERMAYER-They're hauling it all day and night, though, right? MR. PIAZZOLA-They're not hauling at night right now, because the only person who'll take it at night is Paul Naylor, and he'll be ready as of April 1st, according to my discussion with Jim today. MR. OBERMAYER-It starts pretty early, I know that. I've seen them at 5:30. MR. BREWER-For me, I think, we have a meeting next Wednesday, and I suggested this to you last Tuesday when we met, or Monday, whatever day it was, that when you know where this Phase II dirt is going to go, I would like a specific route. I know we discussed, when we had the map, when you cut that bank, you're going to have to move that main, and if there's any kind of a consideration of going around the back of that Mall and coming out the other side, that's going to create a problem, because you're going to have to go out that Mall and come back up the hill for Paul's, and Paul suggested that he know that also. I would like to see a route, only because, yesterday, I left my place of work, and I went to another destination, and I came up on Dix Avenue and Quaker Road, - 36 - ""-'. and I stopped at the red light and, boy, if I was driving my wife's car, I'd have gotten stuck in the dirt there. There was a lot of dirt on the road, and I think that's not your problem. I think that's K-Mart' s problem, because they have a contract or an agreement to keep that road clean, and I just want to see that happen, and when I see your trucks go by our store and go down Ridge Street, and then up Dix Avenue, I think that creates a problem, because you get four or five of those trucks in a row, and you get a school bus, and then you get the regular traffic that's there, and it creates a problem. So I would like to know, for me, a specific route that they're going to go, and see them go that route. I think by next Wednesday, you ought to know where it's going to go. MR. PIAZZOLA-Or a portion thereof. MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. PIAZZOLA-This is a lot of sand. MR. BREWER-Right. I understand that, and I think we ought to have on-going communication as to where it's going, how it's going, and if the roads aren't taken care of, then I think it should be stopped. That's just my opinion. I don't know how everybody else feels. MR. PALING-There was an agreement that you'd haul at night, right? MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. MR. PALING-And now this is just not even close to that, and it seems to me we're treating awful lightly what was a just a night haul agreement now to a 20 hour haul schedule. MR. BREWER-Nineteen hours a day. MR. PALING-And then we've got dirt on the street problems and traffic problems I would think we would have, but why did you agree to a day only schedule and then try to revert to this without telling anybody? MR. PIAZZOLA-The night only schedule was specific to the 100,000 cubic yards that's going to the Town of Queensbury. It didn't address the rest of the soil that has to come off the site with the expansion. MR. PALING-But you took the liberty of hauling it during the day. MR. BREWER-Well, Bob, in defense of him, I'll say this, that I talked to Dan Galosha. Dan Galosha was in Syracuse on Saturday, got the contract from Pyramid Company, which I presume Mike knew nothing about. They told him, you be there Monday morning. Dan didn't know anything about the agreement ~ had, went in there, and I'll say Monday. I don't know if it was Monday, went in there under the direct orders of Pyramid Company, his boss, and just started doing his job, knew nothing about it. I. saw the trucks going down the road, and I had a bird. I said, what in the heck is going on. I called Jim Martin. Jim Martin called Mike. Mike got a hold of Dan, and then we had a meeting, and I said, you know, this is wrong. We had an agreement, and he clearly admits that they did do wrong, in the letter. I think during the day is, I don't know why you've got to do it during the day. MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, I told you we're under a difficult construction schedule with our tenants, and I (lost word). MR. BREWER-I know, but what I'm saying to you is, if you went to penneys and said, gee, they won't let us do it during the day, what are they going to do? - 37 - '- MRS. LABOMBARD-But won't that set the construction right back by weeks? MR. BREWER-Well, so what? I mean, that's not our problem. MR. OBERMAYER-I realize that, but, I mean, we have to be a little bit reasonable. I could see minimizing the time of day that they can do it. I mean, during rush hour, definitely, from, like, six to eight-thirty, or whatever. MR. BREWER-What happens at noon time when everybody goes to lunch, though? Have you ever driven down Quaker Road at lunch time? MR. MARTIN-What ~ feel is very important here is we need to know the destination, and I feel that we need to know what that truck route is, once we know the destination, and we have to make doubly sure that it's not through residential neighborhoods. Like, I haven't had a lot of calls on the route you've been taking because it's just directly down Quaker Road, which is an arterial road, and it hasn't gone through a lot of neighborhoods. I haven't had a lot of calls. MR. BREWER-No. It's not going down Quaker Road all the way, though. It's turning at Dix Avenue, or turning down Ridge, and going down Ridge. MR. MARTIN-Right. That, see, now that's what I'm talking about. To me, it should be a mandated route down Quaker Road only. It's got the road specification, the cross section of pavement and all that to deal with that weight. It's not going through residential neighborhoods, and that's what should be done. MR. BREWER-Exactly. MR. MARTIN-And, to me, truck traffic travelling over that route at two o'clock in the afternoon, I, personally, don't care. That's what that road was made for. MR. MACEWAN-Is there some sort of enforcement in lined in the Town for dumps to have their tarps down when they're carrying a load? Is that mandatory in the Town? MR. BREWER-That's a State. MR. MACEWAN-Half those trucks that are going up and down Quaker Road don't even have tarps on them, and he's hauling, and there's sand blowing out of there right and left. MR. MARTIN-The other thing, Mike, is I'd like you to make a note. I'd like to see provisions provided on site before those trucks leave your, the payload, the wheels are sprayed down with a hose. So we get the mud out of the treads, and I'm going to say the same thing to K-Mart at the other end, tomorrow. MR. BREWER-I, personally, would like to know, like Jim said, the route. I don't want to see those trucks going down Ridge Street. MR. MARTIN-See, I don't have a problem with it during the day, as long as it's not through a residential neighborhood, myself. MR. BREWER-Right now it's going through a residential neighborhood. MR. MARTIN-It shouldn't be going down Ridge at all. MR. BREWER-R~ght. MR. MACEWAN-So twenty hours a day is not a problem for you? MR. STARK-Nineteen hours a day. - 38 - -- MR. MACEWAN-Nineteen. MR. MARTIN-No, and I'm saying, we had worked out hours like from seven in the morning until three o'clock in the afternoon you avoid the late afternoon rush hour, an attempt should be made to do that too, but, like I said, I, personally, don't have any problem with you with a truck on Quaker Road at 1:30 in the afternoon. Nobody I don't think, really cares, as long as it's not, it's covered and all that. MR. BREWER-Well, on the same hand, Jim, if the City of Glens Falls is going to buy 50.000 yards and it's going to go to East Field, then that shouldn't be done during the day, either, because that has to directly go through a residential neighborhood. That's why it's important for us to know. MR. MACEWAN-I kind of disagree with you on that, Tim, only from the standpoint, if I was in a residential neighborhood, I think I'd rather have a truck coming through my neighborhood during the day than I would at night. MR. MARTIN-And I think if that's absolutely a need, a necessity, like Tim says, you have a destination like East Field or something, then we at least need to know that, so when I get the call, I can tell the person what the hours of travel are going to be and when is the scheduled ending date. MR. MACEWAN-I'm kind of wondering even as well, is the agreement that we have with them for taking the sand over to the Town storage pit over on Big Bay Road, and they're going to haul that at night, how many thousands of phone calls are we going to get because they're doing it at three o'clock in the morning? MR. BREWER-Well, Craig, what you're going to have happen is you're going to come out of that Mall entrance, the west entrance to the Mall, you're going to go directly on 9, or Aviation Road, to the Northway, go right down the Northway. You're going to get off Corinth Road, and all there is there is a motel and a McDonalds. MR. MARTIN-Paul Naylor has already instructed them not to bang their tailgates over there dumping it, because people will hear that over at the sand pit. There's houses close enough that they'll be awakened by that. MR. STARK-So what do you want to do? He says he'll let Jimmy know as soon as he knows the destination. He cut out five hours a day, the busy times. He's not going to go down Ridge Road and then down Dix Avenue east. He's going to go ~ on Dix Avenue from Quaker. They're going to wash the wheels of the truck at both locations. What more can they do? MR. MARTIN-I think they should definitely stay at Quaker Road. MR. PIAZZOLA-Tim, with any luck at all, Galosha will be done hauling to K-Mart over the next couple of days. We have discussed it with him today, and hopefullY none of the sand, and I can't make any promises, will have to ever go that way again. It would be nice if it could all go to the Northway, but the way, the reason I presented the schedules to you, Phase I and Phase II, is I respectfully ask that you don't preclude our ability to haul during the day, as long as we give you the maps, the routes you want and the times you want, because what it does. MR. MARTIN-And under proper conditions, covered trucks and washed wheels. MR. BREWER-I don't have a problem with that. MR. PIAZZOLA-It just severely impacts the ability to meet the time line. I know that's not your problem, that's mine, but to haul - 39 - -- exclusively at night takes a lot of the flexibility of the hauling away, and that's the reason I put it the way I did. MR. BREWER-Okay. MR. PIAZZOLA-But what we'll do is, again, we have a Construction Manager on site. He's been in construction 20 years. We'll get this straightened out. We'll do the schedule. MR. BREWER-I guess what I'm saying, as soon as you know where that destination is, we'd like to know. If you know by next Wednesday, come to our meeting next Wednesday, seven o'clock. MR. MACEWAN-It'll be more than one destination. Is that correct? I mean, you're only talking, what, 50,000 yards are going to go to the City? MR. PIAZZOLA-Well, that's a hypothetical. MR. MACEWAN-Would they take more, less? MR. PIAZZOLA-I don't know. MR. MACEWAN-Okay. So, if there's more than one location, we'd like to have the routes for all locations you plan on going to. MR. PIAZZOLA-Okay. They wouldn't all be going in 10 different directions at once. We'd like to send (lost word) then go to another place with the next dump. MR. MACEWAN-The only other question ~ would have is what's your contingency plans if you don't come up with an agreement with NIMO for the 100.000 yards you want to dump there? MR. PIAZZOLA-What that does is that adds, the Phase II hauling schedule for 100,000 cubic yards is 27 days, all right. The Phase II hauling schedule for 200.000 cubic yards is 95 days, and that's, during the day, it's a five day haul. MR. MARTIN-I don't think you're going to have much complaints if you can get a good route on a seven hour haul day from eight to three. MR. BREWER-But I think we should know what that route is and where it's going. MR. MARTIN-Yes, I agree. MR. PALING-If this is going through residential areas, though, with kids playing, this is where the houses are closely built together, and you're talking the big trucks rolling through. I assume these guys are cautious and there would be no problem there, I hope. MR. MARTIN-When I say residential neighborhoods, the thing I, the most ~ would envision is like you have to go upper Ridge Road or something like that, and there are some houses that front on Ridge Road up through there, but there should be no reason to go into local collector roads and town roads. MR. PALING-You're talking about East Field, right? MR. MARTIN-Yes. street. That's different. That's right through a City MR. BREWER-I'm just saying, that may not be the location they wanted. I'm just using that as an example. MR. MARTIN-Well, what I could see, ultimately, happening here, if Galosha gets the contract, he may bring this to one of his pits to store it, because I don't see him selling 200,000 yards of fill in - 40 - '- a 90 day period. That's a lot of fill. MR. BREWER-A lot of jobs going on, Jim. job right here that could use 150,000. A lot of jobs, there's a You don't know. MR. MACEWAN-I guess probably out of all of this the biggest complaint I've got is the trucks that aren't covered that have been going up and down Quaker Road, because the way, as breezy and windy as it's been the last four or five days, it's not fun following one. You get sand blasted. MR. MARTIN-We're saying covered trucks and washed wheels, and I'm going to tell K-Mart the same thing tomorrow. MR. MACEWAN-I just don't want to see these guys, I mean, they're trying to get new tenants in there and get this project done. I don't want to see them hindered any more than they are. It was miscommunication. I think we've got it sorted out. Lets see what they can come back with us for next Wednesday. MR. BREWER-Wednesday, if you can come back, Mike, with a plan, if Danny has the contract. I just think this Board should know what is going to happen with it. MRS. LABOMBARD-Can't he just call Jim and tell him, and Jim can relay it to us? MR. MARTIN-I can do that. However the Board would like. MRS. LABOMBARD-I'd hate to have to sit here for three hours again to tell us the plan, when you can call Jim up. MR. BREWER-No. He'd be first on the agenda. MR. OBERMAYER-Why couldn't we approve it and then get the location and destination, approve the hours. MR. BREWER-The hours, I don't have a problem with the hours. MR. OBERMAYER-Approve the hours, and then he can come back and tell Jim, and work out the routing of it with Paul Naylor. MR. MACEWAN-No. I think I'd want to hear it myself, too. I'd want him to come back to this Board. MR. BREWER-Yes. MR. MARTIN-Well, I think we can buy a little time, here, because by Tuesday, for sure, he's going to be going to the Town sand pit for the next five weeks, only at night. MR. BREWER-Yes, but, Jim, he also wants to go during the day, too. MR. OBERMAYER-Yes. He wants to go during the day. MR. MARTIN-That's not what's written here, in either one. Phase I is all at night. MR. PIAZZOLA-The Town sand is all going during the day, I mean, at night. MR. MARTIN-We've got until, essentially, May 15th until we get into Phase II. MR. BREWER-Read Phase II. concurrently? Is Phase II going to happen MR. PIAZZOLA-Phase II happens concurrently, but not without your approval of a destination. - 41 - - ~ MR. BREWER-Right. one destination. the day. It happens concurrently. Phase I is just the Phase II happens at the same time, only during MR. MARTIN-Okay. I've got no problem with eight to three, as long as we know the destination and the route. MR. BREWER-Wednesday we'll know. MR. PIAZZOLA-As soon as Galosha gets this thing done down at K- Mart, we're ready to have him go all night, down to. MR. MARTIN-And the Town is ready also. Paul Naylor is ready also. MR. BREWER-So, if you could let us know Wednesday where your destination is, and your route, and that'll be fine. The hours of operation are fine, but, I mean, if he gets a destination tomorrow, and Danny gets the contract, you can call me and tell me, because I can get word to everybody. MR. HARLICKER-Just one comment, all suggestions on this Study, please make them concise and to the point. I've edited and I've edited and I've edited. I need specific recommendations. I can't do it by myself. On motion meeting was adjourned. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, Timothy Brewer, Chairman - 42 -